NAF World Headquarters
North America - Underworld Cup: Finis - Nov. 20-21, 2004 - Ann Arbor, MI
neoliminal - Oct 03, 2004 - 12:10 PM
Post subject: Underworld Cup: Finis - Nov. 20-21, 2004 - Ann Arbor, MI
Underworld Cup: Finis
Nov. 20-21, 2004 - Ann Arbor, MI
This will be the largest (and last) Underworld Cup ever! Jervis Johnson will be the Guest of Honour and many luminaries from around the Blood Bowl world will be in attendance.
Held in the University of Michigan's beautiful ivy covered Student Union, this year's event will pull out all the stops! The competition is always fierce with hard core players coming from as far away as Canada, England, and Germany. If last year is any indication, this year will be fought in the trenches with vicious blocks, long desperation passes and dirty kicks to the face.
The Underworld Cup has repeatedly been won by non-Americans. Are there any American coaches who can keep the cup here in this it's final challenge?
To register in advance:
http://ucon-gaming.org/
Rules for the tournament:
http://www.deathstar.org/~jklewis/finis/
Zombie - Oct 03, 2004 - 01:17 PM
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I'd go if i could find a lift. You just need to convince Brian to go as well!
Why is this the last ever?
neoliminal - Oct 03, 2004 - 02:18 PM
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I've moved to NYC. Wont be holding it in Michigan next year. I'll have a NYC tournament instead.
Colin - Oct 03, 2004 - 03:07 PM
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Maybe it will be the Gotham City Cup (or Metropolous Cup) 
Clan_Skaven - Oct 03, 2004 - 03:24 PM
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Torg wrote:
Maybe it will be the Gotham City Cup (or Metropolous Cup)
Or the "Lyberty Cup"
Or better yet the "Lyberty Torch" (Have an Amazon holding a Torch & holding a Football, in the same stance as the Statue of Liberty)
Theres the Empire State Building in NYC & the Empire is an army in WHF/BB. So why not the "Empire Open"
Or to compliment the Canadian Open, call it the "American Open"
Instead of "the Big Apple" you could call it "the Big Grapple" (ok I'm gonna stop with that one!) 
Colin - Oct 03, 2004 - 03:40 PM
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I like the Empire reference, we all know the US is the Evil Empire (or is that just Disney), so why not the Empire Cup?
Clan_Skaven - Oct 03, 2004 - 03:50 PM
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Torg wrote:
I like the Empire reference, we all know the US is the Evil Empire (or is that just Disney), so why not the Empire Cup?
Why thankyou, thankyou!
I kinda liked the, "Lyberty Torch Challenge" (with the Amazon in the Statue of Liberty pose, holding a BB football) myself.
But who knows maybe it will still be called the Underworld Cup.
Zombie - Oct 03, 2004 - 04:30 PM
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Hey Neo, i've got an idea. If Brian and i promise to go to the Underworld Cup, will you come to the Death Bowl? Might give me an argument to use on Brian to get him to come, as i know that he'll do anything to increase the attendance at the Death Bowl!
CyberHare - Oct 04, 2004 - 07:41 AM
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Hey Hey wait a minute I....
No I guess that's pretty accurate
As for attending Underworld this year I really don't think it's going to happen. But never say never. I'll be in NYC next year for sure.
Clan_Skaven - Oct 04, 2004 - 07:55 AM
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I really would like to attend this tourney, but I work that weekend, & i've used up alot of time off already, so if I can I'll be there, but probably not likely.
neoliminal - Oct 04, 2004 - 01:01 PM
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I've got a few surprises in store this year, it's a shame you guys can't make it! It's going to be a great tournament with some fist pounding, no holds barred Blood Bowl action!!
Take a look at the rules we're using, Zombie actually had a hand in a few of them.
Spazzfist - Oct 04, 2004 - 01:40 PM
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neoliminal wrote:
Take a look at the rules we're using, Zombie actually had a hand in a few of them.
Oh please don't encourage him!
CyberHare - Oct 04, 2004 - 02:02 PM
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I just looked at the rules 
I'm sad to see some of these things creeping into tournament play. Now I know I don't think I'll be at the tourney but I'm going to comment on the rules just the same as there are some disturbing trends starting to emerge.
Random Player Skills - So basically if I get screwed on a couple skill rolls I can kiss my tourney goodbye. There are only 6 games to play, it's not as though the "law of averages" will work things out over the long run. There is no long run. The first three picks are critical to get you where you are going. Getting two of them on a gimp will be a lovely treat for somoene who has payed to play at the event.
Re-rolls for illegal procedure - I do truly fail to see why anyone thinks this is a good idea. I have only ever played a handfull of games where my opponent has moved his turn marker ever turn. No way do I deserve to get a re-roll because he forgot to move his turn marker. The only reason I can see that people are liking this rule is that they are looking forward to getting free re-rolls off a bunch of tourney newbies who are having a hard time to start with. The worst of it is that it's usually the frustrated coach who forgets to move it and this is only helping to burry him further and faster by allowing his opponent that one more chance to "get it right". This is such a "power gamer" way to handle illegal procedures and I am very surprised that it's not getting completely slagged as such. Just get rid of the IP all together, problem solved. If your opponent forgets to move his turn marker, remind him. Come on, how childish are we?
Star Players - No matter what the cost they are not in the spirit of tourney play as far as I'm concerned. That's obviously a personal opinion and not a game mechanic.
4 games on day 1 - John I'm really surprised to see you have 4 games on day one as you were the original opponent to this idea. It's do-able yes but what about the Saturday evening dinner? The after party? The evening gab feast and general hanging out? I think you know what I'm getting at but I'll state it just the same. A tourney isn't just about the games, it's about getting together as friends and having a good time. 4 games of BB are for one very tiring and two counter productive to the friendly envorinment that I myself attend the events for. Now maybe there are some scheduling issues that force this, I don't know.
Zombie - Oct 04, 2004 - 02:05 PM
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Cool!
I see that you're using my sportsmanship system. At the Spike!, people were asked to give a 2 unless they had a good reason not to (it said so in the rules pack). Still, most people gave mostly 3s. Unless you force people to give average marks, it's not going to happen.
You're also using my pairing through NAF rankings in round 1 (well that one isn't really mine, i just suggested that because every chess tournament in the world already works that way). Be advised that you might want to assign a 150 CR to coaches who don't have one, rather than pairing them all at the bottom of the ladder in round 1. That's how they do it in chess. Of course, this will not change anything if you have an even number of coaches with NAF rankings. Also, in chess, they use this every round as a tie breaker to determine matchups. You might want to do that as well.
Also, you probably didn't use this because of me, but i'm glad you give more points for a tie than for a loss by one TD. The 5 points for a tie in CAS is a nice addition too, i like that!
You've got Brian's dice rule, that's nice.
I like the skill system, it's a cool twist. You forgot to mention whether a player can take more than one skill/upgrade. I take it to mean that there are no limits in that respect? Can the money be spent on players, apothecaries and the like? You don't say anywhere that it can't...
I don't like the rule for multiple star players. Two rolls that happen out of the game can easily decide a game. It would be better to let both teams have their star, or neither team. If you must have him only once, then you should make him switch team automatically at halftime.
You should specify how the halfling chef works, as there are 3 or 4 different versions out there, and you don't even seem to be using the official one (as you don't mention ingredients anywhere).
The added zombie i think makes necromantic and undead teams too good in your tournament.
Can star players use TRR? How about leader RR?
GalakStarscraper - Oct 04, 2004 - 03:21 PM
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John after reading through the rules ... I have 3 comments and yeah ... feel free to ignore them since my wife veto'd me coming up.
1) The 4th game on day 1. The single thing that made me come back last year and made me risk my wife's wrath this year to ask to still come even with my niece's 1st birthday was the dinner on Saturday night with everyone. Eating, debating, and then after dinner going out to the bar and eating and debating some more. That single event was more important to me than the tournament. So I share Cyberhare's thoughts that you eliminated the best part of the Underworld Cup (at least to me). Also ... CyberHare is right ... you were the one who said and I quote:
Quote:
neoliminal
Posted: 17 Dec 2003 23:20
Subject: GenCon Bowl 2004
Neo: I desperately want more games at GenCon.
Galak: So the question becomes ... John what do you think of 4 games on Friday with the final round on Saturday morning. Are you game for that?
Neo: Four games in one day is the blood bowl version of torture. Don't do it.
=========================================
2) With your skill system ... why random player? If I have to purchase skills, I'd think it would be okay to assign them. I mean if I want to save up for +1 ST, I need to play 3 games with no skills. After that I'd like to know someone was going to get +1 ST to make it worth playing those first 3 games skillless.
=======================================
3) Agreed with Zombie. In the LRB 3.0, the Master Chef is free so if you are saying he costs 150k ... what exactly is costing 150k?????
Recommendation: Either use the Vault rules that for 150k he rolls 3D6 each half and steal one and gains one reroll for each 2+ roll or
say that extra ingredients cost 60k a piece (3x - GenCon 2004 and Chaos Cup 2004) ... or 80k a piece (4x - Deathbowl 2004)
Galak
Zombie - Oct 04, 2004 - 03:41 PM
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GalakStarscraper wrote:
2) With your skill system ... why random player? If I have to purchase skills, I'd think it would be okay to assign them. I mean if I want to save up for +1 ST, I need to play 3 games with no skills. After that I'd like to know someone was going to get +1 ST to make it worth playing those first 3 games skillless.
Sometimes you only need to play with one less skill for a single game to get the +1 ST. Say that your first priority is leader. You take nothing after game 1, and spend 30k after game 2 on leader. After game 3, you've got 30k again. You can spend it right there on a normal skill, a double, a MA or an AV, or you can wait just one more game and get +1 ST.
Personally, i like the random aspect. I solves the problem of big guys always taking block after game 1 without needing dumb rules like no general skills for big guys. Also, with the way Neo has people spending money on skills, it adds a lot more decision making to the process. Do i want to give this player a skill or do i wait some more for a better skill (or even stat upgrade) on another player?
Spazzfist - Oct 04, 2004 - 04:49 PM
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Zombie wrote:
... It solves the problem of big guys always taking block after game 1 without needing dumb rules like no general skills for big guys.
Am wondering why you think this is a dumb rule? Personally, I think it works. It would be an easy solution the overly-powrful ogre team.
Spazz
Zombie - Oct 04, 2004 - 04:57 PM
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The ogre team is the problem, not the ogres. The LRB has no ogre team and big guys there are perfectly balanced.
Talk about adding something broken and fixing it by breaking something else!
Spazzfist - Oct 04, 2004 - 05:21 PM
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I started a new thread on the big guy issue, don't want to hijack this one debating....
Spazz.
P.s. I would LOVE to be able to come, and know some others who probably are, but I am not counting on it.....
CyberHare - Oct 04, 2004 - 06:46 PM
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Hmm, re-reading my comments before I think the tone was a little more harsh than it was meant to be. Anyone who goes to the trouble of putting together a tournament deserves a lot of praise. I didn't mean to sound like I was being negative towards your tourney.
Xeterog - Oct 04, 2004 - 08:11 PM
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Hmm...now I'm conflicted. Was thinking of going to the Chaos Cup..but JJ will be at this Con...I know I can't make both of them (live in Texas...it's not a sure thing I can make even one..much less two of them......)....descisions, descisions...
neoliminal - Oct 04, 2004 - 09:37 PM
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CyberHare wrote:
I just looked at the rules
I'm sad to see some of these things creeping into tournament play. Now I know I don't think I'll be at the tourney but I'm going to comment on the rules just the same as there are some disturbing trends starting to emerge.
Random Player Skills - So basically if I get screwed on a couple skill rolls I can kiss my tourney goodbye. There are only 6 games to play, it's not as though the "law of averages" will work things out over the long run. There is no long run. The first three picks are critical to get you where you are going. Getting two of them on a gimp will be a lovely treat for somoene who has payed to play at the event.
There's a risk in saving for the better skill rolls. If you save for a ST increase, there's a risk that it wont land on the player type you want.
This also helps limit the min/max factor in allowing skills that normally don't get seen in tournament play.
In particular I like the coaching decisions this puts on players. Do you want to use a regular skill on a lineman after the first game, or hope to get a hit on a position player for 30K after you second round.
What are you worried about? The Amazons will still use the same system they always use... +block +block +block +block +block +block 
Quote:
Re-rolls for illegal procedure - I do truly fail to see why anyone thinks this is a good idea. I have only ever played a handfull of games where my opponent has moved his turn marker ever turn. No way do I deserve to get a re-roll because he forgot to move his turn marker. The only reason I can see that people are liking this rule is that they are looking forward to getting free re-rolls off a bunch of tourney newbies who are having a hard time to start with. The worst of it is that it's usually the frustrated coach who forgets to move it and this is only helping to burry him further and faster by allowing his opponent that one more chance to "get it right". This is such a "power gamer" way to handle illegal procedures and I am very surprised that it's not getting completely slagged as such. Just get rid of the IP all together, problem solved. If your opponent forgets to move his turn marker, remind him. Come on, how childish are we?
IP is there to make sure the turn marker gets moved correctly. Period.
If players aren't calling IP because it's seen as too harsh, then it's got to be softened. A RR is really a small penalty, but if it gets both players to mind the turn markers it's worth it. Eventually coaches will learn to do it and it wont affect the game at all.
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Star Players - No matter what the cost they are not in the spirit of tourney play as far as I'm concerned. That's obviously a personal opinion and not a game mechanic.
Noted.
[/quote]4 games on day 1 - John I'm really surprised to see you have 4 games on day one as you were the original opponent to this idea. It's do-able yes but what about the Saturday evening dinner? The after party? The evening gab feast and general hanging out? I think you know what I'm getting at but I'll state it just the same. A tourney isn't just about the games, it's about getting together as friends and having a good time. 4 games of BB are for one very tiring and two counter productive to the friendly envorinment that I myself attend the events for. Now maybe there are some scheduling issues that force this, I don't know.[/quote]
Trust me, it's a scheduling issue. I hate that we have four games in one day. As you can see above in Galak's quote (thanks Galak!) I've been on record as saying four games is too much.
I'm trying to find a way around it.
neoliminal - Oct 04, 2004 - 09:54 PM
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GalakStarscraper wrote:
John after reading through the rules ... I have 3 comments and yeah ... feel free to ignore them since my wife veto'd me coming up.
Heh. Wont ignore them. You (and Brian) are one of the best tournament organizers out there. I value your opinions 
Quote:
1) The 4th game on day 1. The single thing that made me come back last year and made me risk my wife's wrath this year to ask to still come even with my niece's 1st birthday was the dinner on Saturday night with everyone. Eating, debating, and then after dinner going out to the bar and eating and debating some more. That single event was more important to me than the tournament. So I share Cyberhare's thoughts that you eliminated the best part of the Underworld Cup (at least to me). Also ... CyberHare is right ... you were the one who said and I quote:
Quote:
neoliminal
Posted: 17 Dec 2003 23:20
Subject: GenCon Bowl 2004
Neo: I desperately want more games at GenCon.
Galak: So the question becomes ... John what do you think of 4 games on Friday with the final round on Saturday morning. Are you game for that?
Neo: Four games in one day is the blood bowl version of torture. Don't do it.
Sorry, I'm at the mercy of the convention schedulers.
Quote:
2) With your skill system ... why random player? If I have to purchase skills, I'd think it would be okay to assign them. I mean if I want to save up for +1 ST, I need to play 3 games with no skills. After that I'd like to know someone was going to get +1 ST to make it worth playing those first 3 games skillless.
The random roll does three things.
1. Emphasizes coaching skill choices by taking players out of the normal pre-planned skill choices that run rampant at tournaments now. (you can find skill choices for tournaments in the tournament threads.)
2. Allows for skill choices not currently available at tournaments (doubles, stat increases...)
3. Makes the skill choice more interesting.
Quote:
3) Agreed with Zombie. In the LRB 3.0, the Master Chef is free so if you are saying he costs 150k ... what exactly is costing 150k?????
Recommendation: Either use the Vault rules that for 150k he rolls 3D6 each half and steal one and gains one reroll for each 2+ roll or
say that extra ingredients cost 60k a piece (3x - GenCon 2004 and Chaos Cup 2004) ... or 80k a piece (4x - Deathbowl 2004)
Galak
Mea culpa... Have to change that.
neoliminal - Oct 04, 2004 - 10:03 PM
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Zombie wrote:
Cool!
I see that you're using my sportsmanship system. At the Spike!, people were asked to give a 2 unless they had a good reason not to (it said so in the rules pack). Still, most people gave mostly 3s. Unless you force people to give average marks, it's not going to happen.
Yes, thanks for the idea.
Quote:
You're also using my pairing through NAF rankings in round 1 (well that one isn't really mine, i just suggested that because every chess tournament in the world already works that way). Be advised that you might want to assign a 150 CR to coaches who don't have one, rather than pairing them all at the bottom of the ladder in round 1. That's how they do it in chess. Of course, this will not change anything if you have an even number of coaches with NAF rankings. Also, in chess, they use this every round as a tie breaker to determine matchups. You might want to do that as well.
Oh, good one. I'll definately do that.
Quote:
Also, you probably didn't use this because of me, but i'm glad you give more points for a tie than for a loss by one TD. The 5 points for a tie in CAS is a nice addition too, i like that!
Cheerfully stolen from Chaos Cup.
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You've got Brian's dice rule, that's nice.
Yep. Another cheerfully stolen idea.
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I like the skill system, it's a cool twist. You forgot to mention whether a player can take more than one skill/upgrade. I take it to mean that there are no limits in that respect? Can the money be spent on players, apothecaries and the like? You don't say anywhere that it can't...
Yep. Stack away.
Quote:
I don't like the rule for multiple star players. Two rolls that happen out of the game can easily decide a game. It would be better to let both teams have their star, or neither team. If you must have him only once, then you should make him switch team automatically at halftime.
I wanted it to be risky for people to bring stars. If you bring them, then you will have to suffer the whims of the stars when you play an opponent with the same star.
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You should specify how the halfling chef works, as there are 3 or 4 different versions out there, and you don't even seem to be using the official one (as you don't mention ingredients anywhere).
Have to fix that. :-\
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The added zombie i think makes necromantic and undead teams too good in your tournament.
Disagree.
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Can star players use TRR? How about leader RR?
No and no.
Zombie - Oct 04, 2004 - 10:37 PM
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neoliminal wrote:
Quote:
I like the skill system, it's a cool twist. You forgot to mention whether a player can take more than one skill/upgrade. I take it to mean that there are no limits in that respect? Can the money be spent on players, apothecaries and the like? You don't say anywhere that it can't...
Yep. Stack away.
How about the second part of the question?
neoliminal wrote:
Quote:
I don't like the rule for multiple star players. Two rolls that happen out of the game can easily decide a game. It would be better to let both teams have their star, or neither team. If you must have him only once, then you should make him switch team automatically at halftime.
I wanted it to be risky for people to bring stars. If you bring them, then you will have to suffer the whims of the stars when you play an opponent with the same star.
Yeah, but it's only a risk when you face another team that has the same star. And then, it's the same risk for both teams. You're not penalizing teams with stars when they play against teams with no stars. All you're doing is making it very likely (50% chance) for a game with two teams that have one to be no fun at all (one team gets the star for both halves, so you've got a TR 100 team playing against a TR 70 team).
And another question i've just thought about. Are there prizes to be won at the tournament or just sheets of paper with "congratulations" written on them? And are there other awards to be given on top of the first and second place described in your rules pack? For example, most TDs, most casualties, most sportsman, etc.
neoliminal - Oct 04, 2004 - 11:47 PM
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No, I don't think you can use that money for anything other than skills. And you can't start with money in your treasury either (just predicting the next train of thought.)
As for the stars, I don't expect to see many. They are still quite expensive even at 1.8X normal cost.
Zombie - Oct 05, 2004 - 12:18 AM
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Oh, so that's the formula you used! I wondered where you took those prices from...
I think you made a small mistake with Varag; he should be 290k. Everybody else was rounded off to the closest 10k.
As for stars being rare, you may well be right. But then why the special rule about only one of each per game?
By the way, if i find a way to come, i'm thinking of fielding a necro team with a star player. Since i can get zombies for free (raise the dead) and a reroll for semi-free (leader), i've got money to spare...
CyberHare - Oct 05, 2004 - 04:39 AM
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neoliminal wrote:
Heh. Wont ignore them. You (and Brian) are one of the best tournament organizers out there. I value your opinions
Thanks for the praise. 
neoliminal wrote:
There's a risk in saving for the better skill rolls. If you save for a ST increase, there's a risk that it wont land on the player type you want.
It's not just a risk, it's a high probability that you won't get the player you want. It's the random out of game nature of the idea that I don't like. Now if it were something like you can only put a skill on someone that earned SPP's during a game that might be interesting. I still don't like it but I dislike it less than the random out of game pick.
neoliminal wrote:
What are you worried about? The Amazons will still use the same system they always use... +block +block +block +block +block +block
Are you sayin' I'm predictable 
neoliminal wrote:
IP is there to make sure the turn marker gets moved correctly. Period.
Agreed.
neoliminal wrote:
If players aren't calling IP because it's seen as too harsh, then it's got to be softened. A RR is really a small penalty, but if it gets both players to mind the turn markers it's worth it. Eventually coaches will learn to do it and it wont affect the game at all.
Players aren't calling IP because it too harsh and too cheezy. A RR is a small penalty yes, but it's also a big bonus to the person who called the IP. No one calls the IP now because there's nothing in it for them other then being mean to your opponent. If you give people a free RR everyone is going to call it. Even vets like you and I forget to move our turn counters. As I recall we both forgot to move it in our last game. I don't think I deserved any bonus because you fogot to move your counter. I remember a game I played at Gencon in the last round this year where I reminded my opponent to move his turn counter every other turn. The poor guy was playing for the first time in years and was at the bottom of the rankings. I beat him as it was, I would have hated to add insult to injury by gaining RR's because of his inexperience. I don't like this idea because of the change in mindset it will bring in coaches. Yes coaches will be calling IP now but it won't be to help out their opponent as it is now, it'll be out of greed to get that extra RR. I don't believe this will help anyone to remember to move their counter really. In the heat of the moment people will still forget and at a critical moment turn over an extra chance to their opponent to get the job done right.
neoliminal wrote:
Trust me, it's a scheduling issue.
That's what I figured. Just wanted to check
Grumbledook - Oct 05, 2004 - 05:59 AM
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i don't think that the skills taken in normal tournys are overly predictable, or well mine aren't
i usually take guard on the mummys rather than block when playing undead, I also don't normally take block on my minotaur, i've given him break tackle and at the spike i didn't give him anything
its the unusual skill rolls that oft make the other guy have to adjust to playing a race they are used too differently
GalakStarscraper - Oct 05, 2004 - 06:58 AM
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John,
By scheduling, do you mean they are saying you have to run day 1 until 8 pm?
Or that you really want to play 6 games?
I think you misunderstood me. I'd rather have a 5 game tournament and the fun of going out with everyone on Saturday night than a 6 game tournament without that.
After playing at the Memorial Mayhem which was 4 games in one day. I was wiped out and wanted nothing more than to get home. I'm not sure how much folks will want to enjoy the evening after 4 games in one day.
So I'm not sure if you are saying the event is forcing you to play 4 games in one day. I think what you are saying is that you really want 6 games and the only way to do so is to pack 4 days on Saturday. If this second is true, I hope you'd consider 5 games total.
But like I said, I got veto'd coming. But I'm hoping folks like Anthony and OMM would chime in here as well so I know if its just Brian and I with this belief.
Brian ... which would you rather have: 6 games total and playing until 8 on Sat. ... or ... 5 games total and playing until 5 on Saturday?
Galak
Grumbledook - Oct 05, 2004 - 07:12 AM
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6 games is better and finshing at 8 the night is young
in fact thats bang on beer o'clock
AnthonyTBBF - Oct 05, 2004 - 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Sorry, I'm at the mercy of the convention schedulers.
Why are you following their schedule? Do what we do at Pandemonium - ignore them. The slot system is there for people who come to the con to play a variety of games. If you are playing in the touney you can't do that anyways. You should just buy 1 "big slot" for the tournament since you can't go to anything else.
Anyways I am planning to be there again, I'll start rounding up the troops. We'll probably stay at the Red Roof again.
AnthonyTBBF - Oct 05, 2004 - 07:42 AM
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Found alittle mistake on your rules page:
Quote:
The Spike! Magazine Championship is a NAF sanctioned tournament and games played will count to NAF rankings.
CyberHare - Oct 05, 2004 - 08:09 AM
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GalakStarscraper wrote:
Brian ... which would you rather have: 6 games total and playing until 8 on Sat. ... or ... 5 games total and playing until 5 on Saturday?
For certain if there's no time to fit a 3rd game in on day 2 I'd vote for the 5 games and finishing at 5pm on Saturday. Not that I get a vote since I'm probably not going But you asked
I agree with Anthony, if it's because of the Con schedule then I'm sure something can be worked out.
Zombie - Oct 05, 2004 - 11:07 AM
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I'm still wondering about raise the dead. The undead or necromantic team can keep their raised zombies, but the other team also get their player back after the game. So what gives? The player can't be in two places at once!
Melifaxis - Oct 05, 2004 - 11:21 AM
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It's magic.
neoliminal - Oct 05, 2004 - 12:31 PM
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Well the two people complaining about the 4 games in one day are not coming, so I'm not too worried about that If you guys were coming then....
The schedule was for blocks of time. Our games have not actual connection to the schedules of other events. I have my space from 9am to 8pm ... so it's either waste the extra time and only run 3 games the first day or run 4 in one day.
As for the zombies... it's magic.
nyghtmare - Oct 05, 2004 - 12:40 PM
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Is there a list of places to stay at Ann Arbor. I'm cheap as would even stay at a dorm for a night.
Zombie - Oct 05, 2004 - 12:40 PM
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Zombies don't believe in magic. Well, at least this one doesn't!
Hey, it's your tournament, so whatever you say.
neoliminal - Oct 05, 2004 - 12:57 PM
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nyghtmare wrote:
Is there a list of places to stay at Ann Arbor. I'm cheap as would even stay at a dorm for a night.
http://annarbor.org/accommodations/
If I still had a place in A2, I'd offer you couch space, but I don't
AnthonyTBBF - Oct 05, 2004 - 12:59 PM
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nyghtmare - we stayed at the Red Roof Inn last year. It's the cheapest place we found and not far from the venue (about a 10 min car ride max). I can't remember which one it is though... hey neo is it the Red Roof South we were at?
Melifaxis - Oct 05, 2004 - 01:06 PM
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If only the Red Wings were playing...
KarlLagerbottom - Oct 05, 2004 - 02:36 PM
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John-
Maybe it would help if I read the rules, but are Rotters treated the same way as Zombies in this tourney? Can the Nurgle team keep infected players(aka casualties) from game-to-game?
Thanks. -Rob
Spazzfist - Oct 05, 2004 - 03:04 PM
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KarlLagerbottom wrote:
John-
Maybe it would help if I read the rules, but are Rotters treated the same way as Zombies in this tourney? Can the Nurgle team keep infected players(aka casualties) from game-to-game?
Jeez Rob, not another team!
Maybe you could paint up the halflings like rotters and call them the "pustules"! For the beastmen they could be bringing little sheep onto the pitch! Wicked! 
Spazz
KarlLagerbottom - Oct 05, 2004 - 03:09 PM
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Yep...and CD's are on the way too.
I just got the team from JayLazer, and have my theme all set as well.
Lots of ideas...and mini's...but sadly no painting ability. 
The Orc team is still laying around...I just haven't gotten that inspiration yet...Hmmm...maybe a female river troll.
-Rob
neoliminal - Oct 05, 2004 - 04:08 PM
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KarlLagerbottom wrote:
John-
Maybe it would help if I read the rules, but are Rotters treated the same way as Zombies in this tourney? Can the Nurgle team keep infected players(aka casualties) from game-to-game?
Thanks. -Rob
Yes.
KarlLagerbottom - Oct 05, 2004 - 04:11 PM
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Hmmm... 
Michigan aye?
Zombie - Oct 05, 2004 - 04:14 PM
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Hum, suddenly Nurgle's Rotters are a very competitive team!
Melifaxis - Oct 06, 2004 - 07:35 AM
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Chances of a kill aren't that high. But I think it encourages someone to try them out in a tourney.
Spazzfist - Oct 06, 2004 - 08:24 AM
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Well I just picked one up on ebay - am really looking forward to painting up these bad boys and giving them a workout!
KarlLagerbottom - Oct 06, 2004 - 09:04 AM
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Well one thing is for sure...they have more of a reason to foul than anyone else.
First skill...DirtyPlayer on the Beast and then take Block...doubles for Razor Sharp Claws and...pray for 'GET THE REF!!! There you have it...a Rotter Factory!!!
-Rob
EDIT: By the way...I know that RSC and DP are not cumulative...it just covers both normal Blocks and Fouls in terms of maximizing casualties.
neoliminal - Oct 06, 2004 - 11:53 AM
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Interesting strategy, we'll just have to see if it works.
Zombie - Oct 06, 2004 - 12:13 PM
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Melifaxis wrote:
Chances of a kill aren't that high. But I think it encourages someone to try them out in a tourney.
I don't know... Playing norse, i've average about 4 CAS per game in my first two tourneys if you count fouls and pushes into the crowd. Over 6 games, that would add up to 24 CAS. On average, 4 of those should be deaths. At this rate, a necro or undead team could get 3 or 4 free zombies over the course of 6 games, and if the beast can get between a quarter and half of all team casualties, i could get 1 or 2 free rotters over the same period.
Zombie - Oct 06, 2004 - 12:15 PM
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KarlLagerbottom wrote:
Well one thing is for sure...they have more of a reason to foul than anyone else.
First skill...DirtyPlayer on the Beast and then take Block...doubles for Razor Sharp Claws and...pray for 'GET THE REF!!! There you have it...a Rotter Factory!!!
-Rob
EDIT: By the way...I know that RSC and DP are not cumulative...it just covers both normal Blocks and Fouls in terms of maximizing casualties.
I was thinking of the same thing, minus dirty player. With foul appearance, tentacles and mighty blow, the beast could get quite a few casualties over the course of a game. It would be a shame to lose it on a foul.
neoliminal - Oct 06, 2004 - 02:22 PM
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Imagine the carnage if the first round was Rotters vs. Halflings!!!
nyghtmare - Oct 06, 2004 - 06:19 PM
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I guess I'm out. Our family is doing Thanksgiving one week early AURGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Zombie - Oct 06, 2004 - 06:29 PM
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You must be from the USA. Thanksgiving in this coming Monday in Canada. Hey, tell your family to celebrate Thanksgiving on the Canadian date and you'll be fine!
Clan_Skaven - Nov 02, 2004 - 02:35 PM
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Still not sure if I'll get the time off. But I'll ask anyway...
Is anyone driving to the tourney from Ontario? If I can get the time off, can I go with you?
Also I'd need to be back Sunday night (as I'd be working Monday morn.)
Anyone able to help out please let me know.
Thanks
-Rod-
Zombie - Nov 02, 2004 - 05:54 PM
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I'm still looking for a lift from Montreal!
Ben - Nov 03, 2004 - 07:21 AM
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Well i'm pretty sure i'll be going. I will be returning Sunday night but not sure how you'll be able to make it to Niagara Falls. Maybe you find out what time the last bus leaves brampton on Sunday night.
Good luck,
Ben
Melifaxis - Nov 03, 2004 - 08:12 AM
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Zombie wrote:
I don't know... Playing norse, i've average about 4 CAS per game in my first two tourneys if you count fouls and pushes into the crowd. Over 6 games, that would add up to 24 CAS. On average, 4 of those should be deaths. At this rate, a necro or undead team could get 3 or 4 free zombies over the course of 6 games, and if the beast can get between a quarter and half of all team casualties, i could get 1 or 2 free rotters over the same period.
True, but there is the roster maximum for Rotters to consider as well. Also, chances are a Rotters team wont start with 0 Rotters in hopes of facing a crunchy armor team every round to get their Rotters for free.
Zombie - Nov 03, 2004 - 05:40 PM
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I think i was thinking of starting the team with 1.
Clan_Skaven - Nov 03, 2004 - 09:23 PM
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Cool Ben, thanks.
Will let you know
neoliminal - Nov 09, 2004 - 09:57 PM
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T-Shirts!!!
http://ucon-gaming.org/events/db/shirt.php
neoliminal - Nov 14, 2004 - 08:12 PM
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With just a little less than a week left until the Underworld Cup:Fini, I wanted to get everyone on the same page!
1) Jervis is Coming to America!!! This is a huge opportunity to get feed back from the designer, hear about upcoming changes to Fanatic and GW and probably get a peek at some cool new stuff!!!
2) Intense competition! Every year the Underworld Cup has presented world class Blood Bowl competition!!! This year will be no exception!!! I'll be playing my #2 Ranked Orcs!!!! That means beating me gets you mondo Coach Rating!!!
3) Cupcakes!!! I'll be getting special Halfling Cup Cakes, straight from the Moot!!! You wont believe you taste buds!!!
4) The official T-Shirt of U-Con is a Blood Bowl Inspired T-Shirt!!! It doesn't get any better than that!!!
5) A brilliant new Skill System!! Now you can pay for the skills you really wanted... but where never able to get in other tournaments!! You can even get Mutations!
6) Did I mention the Cup Cakes?
neoliminal - Nov 15, 2004 - 09:11 AM
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Whelp....
You can strike #1 from the above list. Due to a scheduling error, Jervis will not be attending the Underworld Cup. All I can offer you now is Cup Cakes.
Sorry guys. No one is more unhappy about this than I am.
Hoshi_Komi - Nov 15, 2004 - 01:28 PM
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well, i'm going to the Bash Not By the Bay in harrisburg. Looking forward to your tourney NEXT year in NY....much more manageable for me
ken
AnthonyTBBF - Nov 15, 2004 - 01:34 PM
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I will by in NY for sure.
I am still trying to figure out if I can get to Ann Arbor this weekend. Might be a last minute decision for me.
Old_Man_Monkey - Nov 15, 2004 - 01:42 PM
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Ant - please try and come if you can - you can bunk up with Xtreme and me if you need a place to stay...
AnthonyTBBF - Nov 15, 2004 - 02:47 PM
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I will try my darndest.
Xtreme - Nov 15, 2004 - 09:03 PM
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JJ's loss, should be awesome. Hope you can make it Anthony.
Old_Man_Monkey - Nov 16, 2004 - 03:39 AM
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Hey X - don't let me forget to pick Galak up a Tee shirt... crazy collectors!
Xtreme - Nov 16, 2004 - 03:53 AM
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I think I can handle that.
majortusk - Nov 16, 2004 - 07:16 AM
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speaking of Tshirts, anyone have an extra Gen Con Shirt? I designed the dern thing, but never got one
GalakStarscraper - Nov 16, 2004 - 06:24 PM
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majortusk wrote:
speaking of Tshirts, anyone have an extra Gen Con Shirt? I designed the dern thing, but never got one
My brother might be willing to sell his ... what are you willing to give for it? Hate to ask this but its the only way I know to get you one.
If you had told me you were willing to buy one Jim and I would have set one aside for you.
Galak
Ben - Nov 16, 2004 - 09:38 PM
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Sorry guys, i won't be able to attend. Hopefully see you next year in NYC.
Have a great time everyone!
Ben
CyberHare - Nov 17, 2004 - 04:01 AM
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I won't be there either guy's. I didn't think I'd be able to go but I asked just for fun yeaterday to see if I could get the ok from the "Ole' ball N chain". I didn't even get an answer, just the look of death, so I'm fairly certain that was a no.
Next year in NYC should be an easy sell to the wife though. She's always wanted to go.
Have a good weekend guy's. You'll be in my thoughts.
Old_Man_Monkey - Nov 17, 2004 - 04:06 AM
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Savin' your coin for Florida, eh guys?
Zombie - Nov 17, 2004 - 05:20 AM
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Still looking for a lift from Montreal, even if it's just to Ottawa (Garth would take me the rest of the way).
Ben - Nov 17, 2004 - 07:36 AM
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take a bus.
Zombie - Nov 17, 2004 - 06:44 PM
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Just learned that Garth is not going after all. Now i need a lift from Montreal all the way to Ann Arbor. I'm not taking the bus all the way there! I guess i won't be able to make it.
Too bad, this was the one tournament this year that i really wanted to attend. Oh well, there's always next year... oops!
neoliminal - Nov 19, 2004 - 02:14 PM
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Don't know how much of an incentive this is, but here's a short list of some of the prize support:
* Ressurection Gutter Runner
* Lizardman Cheerleader
* New Deathroller
* Several new Human Blitzers and Linemen (wont be out til May)
Clan_Skaven - Nov 19, 2004 - 03:00 PM
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Great incentives, but I can't get out of work, so sorry, I really want to try the 24 hours of BB in NY next year though!
-Rod-
Melifaxis - Nov 19, 2004 - 03:32 PM
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Have fun gentlemen!
neoliminal - Nov 19, 2004 - 10:01 PM
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I have a feeling that there will just be 4 people playing for those prizes...
Clan_Skaven - Nov 19, 2004 - 10:31 PM
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neoliminal wrote:
I have a feeling that there will just be 4 people playing for those prizes...
Ouch....
If I did make it that would make 5, even if I placed 5th it would still be my best placing in a tourney!
Sorry that I can't go, but I hope you get more than 4 there.
-Rod-
Colin - Nov 19, 2004 - 10:35 PM
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I would've tried to go but unfortunately you scheduled it on Grey Cup weekend.
Zombie - Nov 20, 2004 - 11:29 AM
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Yeah, not the best way to get Canadians to go, that's for sure.
Clan_Skaven - Nov 20, 2004 - 11:51 AM
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Hey I'm a proud Canadian, but lets face it the CFL is boring compared to the NFL. I used to argue that the CFL was a better game as far as rules go, but that argument can only take you so far.
Unless your having a huge Grey Cup party somewhere, tape the game & watch it when you get home.
(Boy oh boy I know I'm gonna get bashed for this post! )
-Rod-
AnthonyTBBF - Nov 20, 2004 - 01:17 PM
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Oh man... don't get Zombie started.
The next person who mentions NFL vs CFL is banned
Zombie - Nov 20, 2004 - 01:36 PM
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Let's face it, the NFL sucks. I'd watch a pre-season CFL game over the Superbowl anyday. American football is just boring. You know who's gonna win by halftime.
Oh, and i dare you to ban me!
garth - Nov 20, 2004 - 02:39 PM
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The fact that this tournament was on Grey Cup weekend was ONE of several reasons I decided not to go (sorry Zombie!). In fact, I just got myself some tickets for $50 each so I extra glad that I pulled out!
I go see the Bills every year, but the Grey Cup is the Grey Cup! It is a WEEK of partys! *Sigh*, I love football........
garth - Nov 20, 2004 - 02:52 PM
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AnthonyTBBF wrote:
The next person who mentions NFL vs CFL is banned
Here's a question: Is BB more similar to the CFL or the NFL? There ARE only 11 players (NFL) but this is also the same as soccer. The ratio of the dimensions of the field are closer to those in the CFL but the end zones are not very deep (NFL).
Uh, oh! I guess this shouldn't be in THIS thread... sorry!... 
AnthonyTBBF - Nov 20, 2004 - 04:04 PM
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Don't tempt me.
Let's keep things on topic folks.
Zombie - Nov 20, 2004 - 04:07 PM
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11 players on the field, no yard between offensive and defensive line, drives that are nearly impossible to stop, kicking game almost non-existant... definitely American football. Besides, by his own admission, Jervis didn't even know that Canadian football existed when he invented Blood Bowl.
AnthonyTBBF - Nov 20, 2004 - 04:12 PM
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Zombie, this is your last warning.
Stay on topic!
Spazzfist - Nov 20, 2004 - 04:48 PM
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Unfortunately, I will not be able to make it out to this one (I promised the GF no more tourneys this year).
But if you will be holding this in New York next year, then maybe I can swing that - will have to wait and see!
Sorry to miss out on the fun!
Spazz
Tauwolf - Nov 22, 2004 - 04:38 AM
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I am very sorry that I couldn't make it to the 2nd day of the tournament. I work nights, and when I went home Saturday night my body absolutely refused to fall asleep. There was no way I was going to be able to drive an hour to Ann Arbor, play in a tourny, and drive back.... I finally fell asleep about kick-off time....
I hope you all had a great time, I know I did. Congrats to the winner. I hope to see you all at another tourny soon.
Brian
majortusk - Nov 22, 2004 - 10:41 AM
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hey np, was still a fun tourney. Glad you and I played. was a good time
majortusk - Nov 22, 2004 - 10:41 AM
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as far as I know, I was meaning to get a list of the winners before I left. Here is as far as I know for the final tally.
1. Absent (Jim B.) won the tournament with Orcs.
2. Solomon ??? (Wood Elves)
3. Phil ??? (orcs)
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11 Eric (Halfling)
12 Andy W (Khemri)
I do know this, there was a ton of bashy teams there.
2 Chaos Dwarf Teams
2 Dwarf Teams
4 Orc Teams
1 norse
1 halfling
1 Wood Elf team
1 Khemri
prizes given out.
1 GW studio painted mini Elf Cheerleader (will have pix soon of it)
2 Studio signed Fanatic Magazines #6 (one is a misprint)
a squad of Brand new Human minis (the ones coming out this spring)
a squad of Phils Boars
1 lizardman Cheerleader
1 Rez Gutterrunner
1 limited signed print of the deathroller on the cover of Fanatic #6
1 brand new Skaven Assassin (the one coming this spring)
1 Brand new Deathroller
Also John Lewis (former NAF president) was awarded a plaque for is efforts and dedication to the NAF and its members.
The Awards given out
1 place (jim) 2nd place (Solomon) 3rd place (Phil)
Best Sportsman (eric)
Most Casualties (Andy)
I ended up winning the most casualties but lost it all
was a horrible weekend for the Tombstone Krushers, think this is the worst I have preformed in a tourney but I had a good time. Everyone was extremely fun. just wish my luck came with me.
Game 1: Dwarves loss
Game 2: Halfling win
Game 3: Norse loss
Game 4: Chaos Dwarf loss
Game 5: Orc loss
Game 6: Chaos Dwarf loss
The real kicker was that since I came so close to winning best painted at the Chaos Cup, I worked my arse off making a new display base for my Khemri Team to try to guarantee the win, and it wasnt even a category
maybe when i head to TKC. See how I do down there.
Hoshi_Komi - Nov 22, 2004 - 11:02 AM
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congrats Jim..2nd tourney and already a winner
betcha your glad u took off work now
absent - Nov 22, 2004 - 12:35 PM
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yeah 3rd tourney actually (went 2-2 at a golden skull with pro elves)
the orcs is doin good for me
I didn't really deserve the win, Sol (2nd) beat me heads up, and was 4-1-1
and i was 4-2
got it done with soft points, by 5 points
and Xtreme(4th i think) was 4-1-1 as well and beat me, but i guess thats the way it goes sometimes.
Hoshi_Komi - Nov 22, 2004 - 12:40 PM
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lol!! join the club
garth - Nov 22, 2004 - 04:01 PM
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Quote:
got it done with soft points
Is that points for sportsmanship/painting/etc.?
*sigh* I am from the camp that the 'winner' should be the last team standing, and that sportsmanship/painting'etc. should be seperate awards...
absent - Nov 22, 2004 - 04:04 PM
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naw soft points in Cas and keeping it close when i lost.
Pretty much everyone got the same points for painting and sportsmanship.
Carnage4u - Nov 22, 2004 - 06:58 PM
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i'm always a fan of winning means X points.
i dont like having to win by X to earn more points, but so many bb touraments are setup that way.
If you WIN you win. should not matter if it was 1 td or 3tds.
garth - Nov 22, 2004 - 07:48 PM
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At first, I didn't understand why BB tournaments gave so many points, such as: 50 for a win; 30 for a tie; 10 for a loss. I realize now that these are combined with other points (sportsmanship/painting/casualties/etc.)
I don't like it.
I'm a sports fan and the way I would assign points is like other 'real' leagues: 2 (or 3) for a win; 1 for a tie; ZERO for a loss. A popular trend is to give points for an overtime loss ("keeping it close"?). Perhaps this system could be used:
win: 2 (or 3) points
tie: 1 point
loss by one touchdown ("keeping it close"): 1 point
loss: 0 points
Sportsmanship, casualties, and best painted team, would be seperate awards.
Xeterog - Nov 22, 2004 - 07:59 PM
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I think the 'soft points' are to keep interest in the tournament. Some people will just go home once they realize they can't even place in a tournament. Bonus points makes it not so obvious that you are out of the running, thus encouraging people to stay and play the games.
Even with only 12 coaches show up, this was an enjoyable tournament...very competitive...going into the last round, there were 4 teams tied for 2nd place...and only 25 pts behind 1st place. With a couple of coaches only 20pts behind that...so over half the field was within one win of 1st place going into game 6.
I went 2-2-2 with my Dwarves...won my 1st two games impressively, but then couldn't seem to catch a break from then on out (combination of playing better players and rolling bad dice)...
I think I ended up in 6th place over all..can't get more average than that...
Old_Man_Monkey - Nov 22, 2004 - 08:04 PM
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Casualties and touchdowns... Painting and Sportsmanship are very nearly always an added bonus at the conclusion of the tourney.
Hoshi_Komi - Nov 22, 2004 - 08:38 PM
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garth wrote:
I'm a sports fan and the way I would assign points is like other 'real' leagues: 2 (or 3) for a win; 1 for a tie; ZERO for a loss. A popular trend is to give points for an overtime loss ("keeping it close"?). Perhaps this system could be used:
win: 2 (or 3) points
tie: 1 point
loss by one touchdown ("keeping it close"): 1 point
loss: 0 points
Sportsmanship, casualties, and best painted team, would be seperate awards.
Everyone has different Ideas on how a tourney should be run....So if you think it should be a certain way....Run your own tourney
Xtreme - Nov 22, 2004 - 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Even with only 12 coaches show up, this was an enjoyable tournament...very competitive...going into the last round, there were 4 teams tied for 2nd place...and only 25 pts behind 1st place. With a couple of coaches only 20pts behind that...so over half the field was within one win of 1st place going into game 6.
and that poor guy in first place fell all the way down to 4th. 
it was a great weekend really liked getting to play everyone, hope I run into a great group of guys like this at the next tourney I go to. 
Atleast I know I can beat the guys who finished in first and second. 
Xtreme - Nov 23, 2004 - 03:15 AM
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I think there was a mistake in entering the results, seems round five was entered twice in place of round 6.
absent - Nov 23, 2004 - 01:21 PM
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lol, rut ro raggy ?
I scored a 70 point win in round 6 and a 50 pt win in round 5, if you need to cross reference my points. I can do every round actually
Rd 1 70 pts vs. hafling (W +cas+2td diff)
Rd 2 30 Pts vs WE (L + Cas+ kept close)
Rd 3 20 Pts vs Dwarves (xtreme)(L+ kept close)
Rd 4 60 Pt vs. Norse (win + cas)
Rd 5 50 pts vs Chaos Dwarves (win)
Rd 6 70 pts vs Dwarves (gortex) (win+ cas +2td diff) (LUCKY)
15 pts painting
315 pts + sportsman if needed
if we need to switch places we will have to figure out how to do it
Xtreme - Nov 23, 2004 - 02:03 PM
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Quote:
if we need to switch places we will have to figure out how to do it
No I'm pretty sure the tournament standings were done correct. I'm pretty confident that you won. I just think there was a goof up when they were entered into the NAF for rankings.
absent - Nov 23, 2004 - 02:06 PM
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and here i've been worried that i REALLY stole first place
Xtreme - Nov 23, 2004 - 02:09 PM
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Nope its all yours.
neoliminal - Nov 23, 2004 - 02:41 PM
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you're right, somethings wrong in the game reports.
Thrud - Jan 07, 2005 - 01:01 PM
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Will these errors be corrected? My current raking for Chaos Dwarfs will increase by a slight bit when this is fixed. The match reports have me listed as losing my last match to the same person that I lost to in the previous round. I can't remember if I won or tied my last match, but I am absolutely positive that I did not lose it. Thanks.
absent - Jan 11, 2005 - 03:04 PM
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thrud, i pmed old man munkey (the other chaos dwarf player at the tourney) but no reply yet. I fail to see how it's unfair that you lost double points to me however.... j/k maybe i'll talk andy into pming someone, since he is our naf organizer guy here.
Thrud - Feb 09, 2005 - 08:45 AM
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Anything that you can do for me would be great.
Thanks a bunch.
absent - Feb 15, 2005 - 07:23 PM
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john, who ran it, just says he's been busy with moving, so he knows the problem and will fix it no problem as soon as he gets time.