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Strategy and Tactics - Vampire Team - I hope is doesn't SUCK!

Game-Opolis - Jul 08, 2003 - 10:19 AM
Post subject: Vampire Team - I hope is doesn't SUCK!

I have started the Vampire Team for our summer league....here is the configuration I started with:

1 Vampire Lord (Vlad Dracul)
3 Vampires (Barnabus Collins, LeStat, and Count Von Krolock)
8 Thralls
Renfield
Willie Loomis
Straker
Johanthan Harker
Peter Cushing
Vincent Price
Roddy McDowell
Lon Chaney
1 RR
9 FF

We modified the rules on the Vampire Lord to say that he does not cost 90,000 per game. But he also can die if he fails to regenerate. We are using the new off for a bite rules in the 2003 Annual.

This should be an interesting season.....any thoughts?

I own a game store in Lansing, IL called Game-Opolis. I am thinking of having a NAF sanctioned Tournament in September and making it an annual event. Anyone out there interested...

Darkson - Jul 08, 2003 - 10:35 AM
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You need more RR's, trust me. The vamps will suck (pun intended) up the RR on failed Bloodthrist's, let alone failed actions.

Also, I'd drop the Lord from the team, and the rules. He's overpowered, and even as a vampire coach, I'd say the team is more balanced without him. This is the way the teams heading when it's made official, so it would be better to get used to running the team without him.

using the current rules, the 2 teams I'd condsider starting:

4 Vamps
7 Thralls
7 FF
3 RR

Or

3 Vamps
8 Thralls
7 FF
4 RR

Of the 2, I'd probably go with the 2nd. The thralls need the extra games to try to gain skills, as the temptation will be for you to het the Vamps to do everything.
Next purchase would be an Apoth for the thralls (save for one's with skills), 2 more thralls , then start buying the rest of the vampires. Only freeboot the Headcoach or Luthor for important games.

1st skill for the vamps is Pro. Yes, Pro, not Block. Pro WILL save you RR's, trust me (when 4 out of 5 vamps fail Bloodthrist you thank me Wink

). For thralls, Block, Kick and Dirty Player are all good.

Doubleskulls - Jul 08, 2003 - 10:44 AM
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I played a TR100 Vampire team last night (my TR125 HE) - 2 Vamps, 9 Thralls, 9FF & 5? TRR. I thought ow this could hurt. But the vamps kept failing OFAB and it wasn't really a pretty sight with thralls dropping like flies to his vamps and my blocking. I ought to have won by much more than 2-0 but couldn't move the ball.

Then he played Marcus (Necros TR 105?) with a reset team (2 stat decreases and another MNG) and managed a 2-2 draw and didn't fail a single OFAB.

Anyway from that I think longer term they may struggle as the thralls are soft & squishy meaning you can take them out giving the numbers to take down the vamps.

I think a hard blocking team could really mess them up big time.

That said, I like that new teams are a little weaker than existing teams. Its stops the arguments about power gaming and means you've got some more interesting variation for an experienced coach looking for a challenge.

GalakStarscraper - Jul 08, 2003 - 12:01 PM
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I have to FULLY agree with Darkson. I'veplayed Vampire teams in all their variants over the last 7 years.

Lose the Vampire Lord. The team REALLY should not have a full time Lord. Freeboot for 90k is fine ... permanent is not.

Use the money for the Lord for another Thrall or two and another Reroll.

Seriously ... drop the Vampire Lord ... the team does fine without it.

My league has a Vampire team that is 4 wins - 1 losses ... it doesn't have a Lord ... if you keep the Lord you run the risk of people deciding the Vampire team is too powerful and banning them from the league. So get rid of the Lord. Also Darkson was right. The official version of the team will definitely not have a Vampire Lord, so get used to it early.

Galak

Skull_Crusher - Jul 11, 2003 - 10:51 AM
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I am doing business in in the U.S. quite frequently. I also have a customer in Lansing.
Please keep me informed on your tournament idea.

Thanx,

Skull_Crusher

Wink

( redlarski@web.de)

Xhilong - Jul 15, 2003 - 09:48 AM
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Yes, drop the Lord and get anthor RR. you FF can go up for free.

just my 2 cents

Game-Opolis - Jul 16, 2003 - 12:15 PM
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My final choice was

3 Vampires
8 Thralls
3 RR
9 FF
10 Treasury

I played my first game and added Pro skill to a Vamp. I tied 1-1 and should have won the game. Played Dark Elves very tough team. Thralls need some skills....

Good advice on the Vamp Lord...

Darkson - Jul 16, 2003 - 04:30 PM
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Unless I've got my sums wrong (not impossible) you should have a treasurey of 50k? Or did you mean you had 9 thralls?

Vamps 3x110=330
Thralls 8 x 40=320
FF 9 : 9 x 10 = 90
3 RR's 3 x 70 =210
Total= 950k

?

skummy - Jul 16, 2003 - 07:06 PM
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I'd go for the Apoth, at that point.

DangerSquig - Aug 27, 2003 - 12:54 PM
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I didn't think much of the new vampire team until I relised you could use rerolls for off for a bite. With that in mind I would get a as many rerolls as possible. I found the Vampire passing game to be brutal....and a lot of fun...As far as the lord ...Get rid of him...you don't need him.

Just a thought

Tutenkharnage - Aug 31, 2003 - 07:13 PM
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Based on the last roster I recall:

2 Vampires (220K)
12 Thralls (480K)
3 TRRs (210K)
9 FF (90K)

-Chet

Mestari - Sep 01, 2003 - 12:21 PM
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GalakStarscraper wrote:

My league has a Vampire team that is 4 wins - 1 losses

When the negative skill for the vamps was discussed at TBB, I conceded to the overwhelming majority, including you, who thought that COFAB is sufficient to keep the team in check.
Now, what's your opinion (I'm not claiming anything yet, I haven't seen the team in action enough):
The intent of a vampire team (based on fluff) would not be an 80% win ratio, not even a 50% win ratio - has the coach simply gotten lucky, or can one argue that COFAB doesn't restrict the team as much as was initially thought?
BTW, the vamp team in our league has played 6 games with 4 wins, 1 tie and 1 loss.

I definitely am of the opinion that the vampires ought to be a low-tier team, and if the current COFAB isn't negative enough, then some changes should be considered, making the vamps Big Guys (no more rerolls on cofab rolls) springs to mind as a sure way to keep the team in control.

Darkson - Sep 01, 2003 - 01:14 PM
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The 3 MBBL Vampire teams have a combined lifetime record of W10/T1/L11, and I think Joe is just a very good coach. I know both Torg and myself have spent most of the time in the lower regions of the league.

Also, if you didn't realise, the teams all started (un)life with a playing vampire Lord, so this may have had some bearing on the earlier wins (like my own Wink

)

Mestari - Sep 02, 2003 - 12:17 AM
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Well, we'll have to see how the various vampire teams fare in the long run, but given the ability to reroll COFAB, the hypnogaze and the statline that they have, I'm not yet convinced the team is balanced enough...

GalakStarscraper - Sep 02, 2003 - 08:28 AM
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Mestari wrote:

Darkson already mentioned my opinion for me. Joe is a good coach. Darkson and Torg have both struggled greatly with this team. If you remove Joe's results with the team from the mix ... you'll have a roster winning less than 50% of its games.

Galak

Mestari - Sep 02, 2003 - 11:10 AM
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Hopefully. I would really like to see the vampire team to return, but only if it's on the low end of the power spectrum. And based on the little data and the two games I've seen so far, this might not be the case.

Tutenkharnage - Sep 03, 2003 - 06:22 AM
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This thread is becoming less appropriate for this forum...but as long as we're diverging, I believe strongly in the following curbs to the longfangs:

* Hypnotic Gaze should be used in place of a block.
* OFAB should leave you uncertain as to which players will show up.

That first one will go a long way toward "fixing" the Vampire team, IMO. Mind you, I'd allow HG to succeed on a straight 2+ roll against any opponent. But forcing the Vamps to declare blitzes to move and gaze would be a Good Thing; ditto eliminating the "free action" bit of this skill.

Regarding OFAB, I prefer the BBM4 version.

-Chet

Mestari - Sep 04, 2003 - 04:37 AM
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Well, I would be happy with Hypnogaze if it could only be used in the beginning of an action. Then there would be no moving hypnogazers making holes anywhere they wish.

With the second point I strongly disagree with:
We all know that the problem with "miss a drive"-OFAB was that every vamp you got on the pitch mean a 100% reliable AG4ST4Hypnogaze player on the pitch. No off-pitch negative can fix that. The vampire negative needs to be on-pitch.
I prefer the current COFAB over any form of off-pitch negative, although I would be happy to make it even more harsh on the vamps.

GalakStarscraper - Sep 07, 2003 - 07:59 PM
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Mestari wrote:

We all know that the problem with "miss a drive"-OFAB was that every vamp you got on the pitch mean a 100% reliable AG4ST4Hypnogaze player on the pitch. No off-pitch negative can fix that. The vampire negative needs to be on-pitch.

Mestari, I've tried to convince Chet of this for a year. For whatever reason he disagrees. Me I fully agree with you. No off-pitch version of OFAB will ever balance this team.

NOW ... as for Hypnotic Gaze having to be used in place of a block. That I could live with. It would REALLY reduce the power of the ability, but if its needed I'd definitely be okay with it.

Galak

Doubleskulls - Sep 08, 2003 - 02:37 AM
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Tutenkharnage wrote:

* Hypnotic Gaze should be used in place of a block.

Maybe all you need to do is either make it the 1st thing the player does in an action OR stop RR of the gaze roll. Hypno Gaze isn't that reliable, unless your opponents have low AG or you can reroll the result.

Tutenkharnage wrote:

* OFAB should leave you uncertain as to which players will show up.

Why?

Have you tried COFAB? I've played against it and it makes a complete mess of the Vampires - they are unreliable & soak up TRR - or just mess up the play. It makes Vamps very hard, and very interesting, to play.

BTW, what house rules are you currently using for Vamps (if any)?

Tutenkharnage - Sep 08, 2003 - 09:57 AM
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That (HG) suggestion might be on the money. That said, I can't think of any other "free action" rolls in Blood Bowl, and I wonder whether Hypnotic Gaze is too big a factor because of its exceptional nature.

As for our house rules, we use the standard OFAB from the Annual. It's a bit of a moot point, as we don't have any Vampire teams in the league. I've seen the new OFAB rules in action, but I don't believe they're supposed to make a complete "mess" of the team. Unfortunately, they do. And they raise far more questions than they answer.

Just MO.

-Chet

Doubleskulls - Sep 08, 2003 - 01:39 PM
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Tutenkharnage wrote:

I've seen the new OFAB rules in action, but I don't believe they're supposed to make a complete "mess" of the team. Unfortunately, they do. And they raise far more questions than they answer.

I was under the impression that OFAB had to be very harsh. Basically ST4 AG4 players will destroy pretty much any team they come up against. Missing the odd drive is, IMO, too weak. Maybe tweaking the old OFAB (so you could miss consecutive drives for example) would help beef it up, but fundamentally having ~3 Vampires wandering around the pitch is going to mess up most team's days.

With the new OFAB, its very nasty on rookie Vampires. However I think as coaches get more experienced you'll see two things

1) Lots of TRR. This helps enormously to move key vampires. It does tend to use up the TRR for the turn so they aren't available for other things though.

2) Pro as the 1st skill for vampires. It drops the chances of failing down to a more tolerable ~10%. Also skills that allow a reroll become more important generally because you are often burning your TRR for the turn on a OFAB roll.

So I think developed Vampire teams are going to be thing to be feared - especially once they are up to 14~16 players so can afford to lose the odd thrall now and again.

The one thing I really like about the new OFAB is that it makes tactics immensely important for the team. You really have to think long and hard about where your Vampires go - e.g. you can't just leave 1 backfield when receiving to pick up the ball, because if he fails his OFAB you wont have anyone who can get there.

GalakStarscraper - Sep 09, 2003 - 09:40 AM
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Tutenkharnage wrote:

I've seen the new OFAB rules in action, but I don't believe they're supposed to make a complete "mess" of the team. Unfortunately, they do.

Actually Chet ... everyone I've talked to wanted them to make a complete "mess" of the team. They seem to be doing the job just right. The team has about a 50% win rate in the MBBL ... bullseye if you ask me.

Quote:

And they raise far more questions than they answer.

Now I have to counterargue this one, because in my opinion it based on out of date information. The MBBL hasn't had a vampire related question for the last 3 months. I talked with Neo about Andy and the BBB league and was told that the BBB isn't having Vampire questions either since they clarified to include all the changes shown on the Hot List.

I and other coaches like this rule Chet, and all the commishes I've talked to using these rules say the coaches are not having any trouble understanding them with the Hot List revised wording. The only questions I've seen resulted from the Annual wording. I think I've had one coach have questions after reading the Hot List wording and I've talked about the COFAB with several coaches and commishes at this point.

Galak

GalakStarscraper - Sep 09, 2003 - 09:47 AM
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Doubleskulls wrote:

The one thing I really like about the new OFAB is that it makes tactics immensely important for the team. You really have to think long and hard about where your Vampires go - e.g. you can't just leave 1 backfield when receiving to pick up the ball, because if he fails his OFAB you wont have anyone who can get there.

In my opinion .. this is one of the best changes with COFAB. I've played old OFAB Vampires for 2 years. There really is no skill/strategy needed to play a team of ST 4/AG 4 ST/AG access players.

The bottom line for me is that off pitch nega-skills never work. Take Root and OFAB are just not working nega-skills in their old forms. COFAB looks like its got a decent chance of getting through. Now if an experimental on-pitch Take Root can be added .... we'll have working nega-skills.

Galak

bb_nut - Jun 07, 2004 - 03:55 PM
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I played a Vampire team in a league at my club and meet mixed results, I finished the season 5 Wins, 1 Draw & 5 Loses. I also got to the final of the cup that we ran along side it.

We used the rules in the game in the Blood Bowl Mag that Vampires were released in (on a 1 they blits the nearest enemy player), we also made te Vampires 120k and re-rolls 60k. This seemed to work and although the Vampire running game is good, the OFAB rule does let them down alot.

Later Days

Clan_Skaven - Jun 07, 2004 - 04:33 PM
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Game-Opolis wrote:

You stated after your first game you gave the Pro "skill" to a Vamp. Unless I'm mistaken, but isn't PRO now a Traight?

Zombie - Jun 07, 2004 - 05:06 PM
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It wasn't when he posted this. Look at the date before replying.

Clan_Skaven - Jun 07, 2004 - 05:18 PM
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Oooooooooops, my mistake. Sorry.

Spazzfist - Nov 25, 2004 - 12:07 PM
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I just noticed this post, and am thankful! I am planning on playing a Vampire Team at the Oakville Battle Bunker league and am looking for some advice.

For a starting team I was considering:

3 x vampires - 330K
9 x thrall - 360K
3 x reroll - 210K
9 x FF - 90K
1 x Cheer - 10K

I think the solid base of thralls will give me room for punishment (both from the other team and my own!) I figured an apothecary is a waste until I have a lot of developed thralls as they are easily injured and easily replaced.

However, now that I have read the other posts, I may consider one less thrall, 2 less FF and one more RR.

In the line up I keep the vamps a litle behind the line, that way if they get thirsty the thralls are ahead of them - basically I am going to try to keep the thralls ahead, so if they get thirsty the vamps will move in the right direction!

there is talk that the team can be expected to lose more than 50% of their games? Why? What would the percentage be for say an orc team? Or humans?

I play to have fun, but winning is good too, ya know!

Spazz

Apedog - Nov 25, 2004 - 02:06 PM
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Vamps are supposed to be a 2nd tier team (ie. less competitive than the main teams) so they are expected to have a less than 50% win ratio. Orcs or Humans (OT:maybe less so in my experience) are 1st tier teams and so are expected to win 50% of games given equally skilled coaches and teams.

From my limited experience the extra rr would be nice to start, and an apoth asap will be a good idea, expect to get beaten up if you play in a bashy league.

Spazzfist - Nov 25, 2004 - 02:35 PM
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Thanks for the info Apedog,

I am looking forward to trying out the team - underdogs or not, they should be a challenge to play! The Bunker plays a league to a finals and then they give it a rest and then play it again a couple of months later. This will be the third league and the third different team that I am playing.

I just wish that I had some more practise playing them before my first game on Friday! Vampire

Spazz

Zombie - Nov 25, 2004 - 08:11 PM
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A vampire team is a bad proposition short term and an unstoppable juggernaut long term.

If you stick with it long enough, they'll become so good that you will either decide to retire them or your league will crumble.

Spazzfist - Nov 25, 2004 - 09:08 PM
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The league only lasts for a couple of months at which point we go into a quarter, semi and then finals. After that it is disbanded for another couple of months before starting up again.

My thought is whether or not I will be able to get enough games in to make it this "unstoppable juggernaut" you describe! (my game time is quite limited).

Whatever, I am just looking forward to using a team I have never played before!

Doubleskulls - Nov 25, 2004 - 09:20 PM
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LOL

Having a look a the top Vampires on FUMBBL wouldn't indicate any of them become unstoppable teams at all. In fact the opposite appears to be true with many of the oldest teams being wrecked by too many casualties.

Spazzfist - Nov 26, 2004 - 07:03 AM
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Well to some extent I question the legitimacy of FUMBBL from what I have heard about the "randomness" of the dice rolls.

However, having said that I do not doubt that the team will be plagued with injuries. I mean, the bulk of the team has 7 armour, and even then the vamps are going to be causing their own auto-injuries on their own players. Nice... Like I said, playing it for the fun and the challenge. LYK how I do as it plays out!

Other than that, I am wonderin if people have any tips as to se up or general play of the team?

There seems to be a general consensus as to the skill development. Pro for the vamps and then block, dirty player or kick for the thralls.

Anything else?

KarlLagerbottom - Nov 26, 2004 - 07:16 AM
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Knowing you...I think Sure Hands might be a good choice. Smile

-Rob

EDIT:
P.S. I fully expect to get pounded into the pitch the next time we play. But its fun railing on the Keystone...I mean Savage Orcs. Laughing

GalakStarscraper - Nov 26, 2004 - 07:46 AM
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Zombie wrote:

If you stick with it long enough, they'll become so good that you will either decide to retire them or your league will crumble.

A fact that FUMBBL has shown to be completely untrue.

Sorry Zombie ... your theories don't work for this team.

Galak

GalakStarscraper - Nov 26, 2004 - 07:49 AM
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Spazzfist wrote:

Well to some extent I question the legitimacy of FUMBBL from what I have heard about the "randomness" of the dice rolls.

The "randomness" is fine. Folks have bad luck and the first freaking thing they blame is the random number generator. Had the same problem with the PBeM program ... AND just like Ski's program we proved that the random number generator was just that ... random using a series of tests created by one of our statistics gurus.

People don't like to lose ... and like to find scapegoats ... that the only thing wrong with the randomness of Ski's program.

Galak

Spazzfist - Nov 26, 2004 - 08:43 AM
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Well I don't want to hijack this thread any discussion about FUMBBL. Like I said it is what I have heard.

Any tactics? First game tonight! I would like to not get totally pounded! Shocked

@lagerbottom - Laugh it up 'fling boy! Sounds like you could use sure hands for your passport!

KarlLagerbottom - Nov 26, 2004 - 08:45 AM
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Oh boy...I should have a talk with Anthony...

Somehow Clan-Skaven hacked into Spazzfist's account to leave that post. Sorry Rod...you're busted...You used that joke already. Smile

-Rob

Spazzfist - Nov 26, 2004 - 08:55 AM
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Well... you are making jokes based on my orcs performance at the Spike! tournament, if you had actually made it to the Deathbowl, you would have seen that they did not smear lard on their hands before the game! (which gave me no excuse for having the same win/loss record as the Spike!)

Now is the 'fling king going to give me advice on playing vamps, or is he going to chastize me some more for recycling jokes? Wink

Spazz

KarlLagerbottom - Nov 26, 2004 - 09:24 AM
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Well...I haven't played with the Vampire team in their current state. But way back when I had "BobbyO and His Bumbling Minions," I tried to focus on the Thrall's progression. Given that the name of the team was suggested by one of my opponents...you can see that it didn't go so well. It turned out that the Vampire Lord, who was part of the team at that time and very potent as-is, did everything and progressed pretty rapidly.

He got the Magic Helmet, from the 3rd Edition Magic Items, and two movement increases. Smile

AV-10, MA-8 dealer of death. Smile

Anyway...I would still try the same thing if I played them now. Get that Apothocary and concentrate on the Thrall. Maybe start with a high FF and re-rolls and only two Vampires. (Treat them as a more running focused Human team.)

Force the Thralls to do things with the thought that you may not be very successfull in terms of Wins/Losses early anyway. Then as the league goes on you will have More Thralls with Skills and can buy the other vampires later with the piles of cash that you have pocketed-away.

Then when you have the two "bad" vampires, just be sure to partner them with ...umm...less useful Thrall. Smile

Anyway...hope that helps a bit. Not from experience, just speculating...
-Rob (aka King

King Fling)

P.S. The 'Flings are still on the fence about retiring. So don't get too excited there Mr. "I can't wait to smash your Halflings" Spazzfist.

Zombie - Nov 26, 2004 - 05:00 PM
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Doubleskulls wrote:

I wouldn't call Fumble Blood Bowl. Sorry, doesn't count. We're talking the real face to face thing here.

Zombie - Nov 26, 2004 - 05:01 PM
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Spazzfist wrote:

Then don't worry about that. I don't think it would happen before 30 to 40 games.

Spazzfist - Nov 26, 2004 - 07:50 PM
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Well the vamps took the field for the first league game today! Unfortunately, things were so slow that we only finished the first half before the bunker kicked us out!

It was Vamps vs. rats, and the casualties are mounting, unfortunately, they are all for my team! I have one SI thrall, and one dead, one thrall is still KO'd. I did have a vamp who was Badly Hurt but managed to regenerate it. The thrall who was killed was by a very hungry vampire who failed almost all of her OFAB rolls!

But I am up 1-0 and we hope to finish the game on Sunday.

The tricky thing is figuring out the nuances for the use of the hypnotic gaze. So far it has proved very useful.

I am hoping to be able to buy an apothecary soon! <gulp>

Hopefully I have enought thralls to field a team next game!

Skull

absent - Nov 26, 2004 - 07:59 PM
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sorry to stick my nose in, but any team that is forced to field 5 players with 6337 statline is not going to become unstoppable at high TR, against opponents who are going to have tackle and such at that higher TR for your vamps, and MB and such for your AV7 turds (and that is what they are! Very Happy

) I think the official vamp team is most definitly OVER balanced (i.e. weak) and not worth complaining about, if you lose to them often you are playing vs a VERY good coach, just be happy he doesn't take WE or skaven, and just butcher/ruin the league.

Spazzfist - Nov 26, 2004 - 09:41 PM
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absent wrote:

Well the notion of taking more vampires than thralls is scary to say the least! Like I said it only takes one hungry vampire to really ruin your team's day!

absent wrote:

and MB and such for your AV7 turds (and that is what they are! Very Happy

)

We affectionately referred to them as "the meat bags" in our game! Smile

absent wrote:

I think the official vamp team is most definitly OVER balanced (i.e. weak) and not worth complaining about, if you lose to them often you are playing vs a VERY good coach, just be happy he doesn't take WE or skaven, and just butcher/ruin the league.

Well I am quickly noticing how hard they are to play, but I am up for the challenge! I tend to agree that they could be toned down a bit - I mean most of my players have human stats but the armour of wood elves. Then I am afraid to move my best players for fear that they are going to eat the weaker ones! I mean with AV 7 the thralls get hurt by the other team easily enough without the vamps taking bites out of them.

The thought had occured to me that maybe I should just retire the team after this game as it was my first and then start with a more "normal" team, but I think I will stick it out. For one I will enjoy the challenge, and two, I want to give other coaches a chance to play against something different. (Also I love the models!!)

Maybe I should change my name to Spazz-fang? Vampire

Spazz

Zombie - Nov 27, 2004 - 08:29 AM
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Your mistake was starting with 3 vamps and 12 players. Had you started with 2 vamps and 11 players, you could have had either 5 rerolls and FF7, or 4 rerolls, an apothecary and FF9. With one less vamp, you would have made fewer Bloodthirst rolls, and with 1 or 2 extra rerolls per half, you would have failed hardly any of them. Rerolls are truly the way to build an unstoppable vampire team.

I would even have started the team with 1 vamp and added a 6th reroll, but then i'm known to be very reroll happy, especially in long leagues. Better to buy them now than to pay double for them later, and with more vamps coming in, you know you'll need them eventually!

Spazzfist - Nov 27, 2004 - 11:01 AM
Post subject:

Actually I did modify it so that I had:

3 vampires - 330K
8 thralls - 320K
4 rerolls - 280K
7 FF - 70K

I agree with you in that the extra rerolls would have been nice, but what I am finding in playing them, is that the team is named the "Vampire" team for a reason! The "meat sacks" are not that good, and generally fill in gaps and get into spots where the vampires need to go in case they are OFAB. this is not to say that I am not trying to use them for blocks, etc., but I am finding with their low armour, I have to use them as cautiously as Wood Elves, without enjoying the benefit of their agility. I rely on the vampires to do the brunt of the work, both moving the ball and making the effective blocks.

The vampires are a double edged sword - they injure your own players occasionally, but they have the great stat-line which makes the invaluable.

Your theoretical proposal of a one vampire team would never stand the test. IMHO. The "meat bags" are just not good enough. Even last night Bikerbob was saying that I should have splurged for four, instead of the three. More play and practise will tell for sure. You disagree? Start a team in a league and prove me wrong!

Spazz

juck101 - Nov 27, 2004 - 11:08 AM
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Spazzfist wrote:

... The tricky thing is figuring out the nuances for the use of the hypnotic gaze. So far it has proved very useful

Ok not same game at all but in 3rd ed the vamp gaze with ability to move made them unstopable. Very nice with three on pitch gives new options to turns not seen by any other team - sure some people must have started to get into it.

I would say for my money as the vamps are am eratic bunch the hyp gaze is actually essentail for some games. Busting a cage a walking in wth 4/4 players potentially is far more scary than a leap stripball player. Maybe not every turn but would expect top vamp players to have some nice special plays with gaze.

Not sure if even on freebooter now (sorry not kept up) but straight armour roll from the star is another great skill. Vs a blodge advanced sidestep type player the ability to stroll up and roll AV is very powerfull too. 3vamps with fangs crushed my wardancers with ease and nulified a much higher rated side - but its only some rosters that would develop this.

--------
more i think the more i need to get a vamp team Smile

Zombie - Nov 27, 2004 - 02:32 PM
Post subject:

Spazzfist wrote:
Your theoretical proposal of a one vampire team would never stand the test. IMHO. The "meat bags" are just not good enough. Even last night Bikerbob was saying that I should have splurged for four, instead of the three. More play and practise will tell for sure. You disagree? Start a team in a league and prove me wrong!

It wouldn't be very good short term but then again, no vampire team would. The point is that vampire teams are great long term, so you want to get there as soon as possible. Buying the rerolls before they cost double is part of that plan. The plan is to play as many games as possible and buy as many vampires as possible before the playoffs start, with the rerolls already in the bag at the start of the season.

And yes, i have played vampires before, for about 20+ games. The team looked very different back then but the basic principle stands.

Doubleskulls - Nov 27, 2004 - 04:12 PM
Post subject:

Spazzfist wrote:

Well to some extent I question the legitimacy of FUMBBL from what I have heard about the "randomness" of the dice rolls.

Galak got it spot on. There is nothing wrong with the random number generation in FUMBBL.

Zombie wrote:

I wouldn't call Fumble Blood Bowl. Sorry, doesn't count. We're talking the real face to face thing here.

Why? The only reason you can sensibly argue about FUMBBL stats being invalid is because of the Open League nature of most games. Given that most leagues don't play Open that's an issue. Other than that the rules are practically the same as ftf leagues.

The huge advantage FUMBBL does have in this discussion is that you can pretty much ensure that if Vampires were broken lots of people there (hungry power gamers that they are : Wink

would have exploited it. Individual leagues are generally poor at producing that sort of information because individual skill makes a huge difference.

Zombie - Nov 27, 2004 - 04:28 PM
Post subject:

Fumbbl :

- Too many games per team, and no limit of games per season.
- You can choose who you play against, which makes it easier for agility teams and harder for teams with lots of dirty players and/or mutations.
- There is none of the grudges and off game discussion that affects the in game play.
- People don't take the time to sit down and play the game properly. They're too eager to get to the next one.
- And so on.

Fumbbl is not Blood Bowl. It's a game yes, but it's not the same game. We're talking about Blood Bowl here.

Spazzfist - Nov 27, 2004 - 09:44 PM
Post subject:

Doubleskulls wrote:

Galak got it spot on. There is nothing wrong with the random number generation in FUMBBL.

And I said that I did not want to hijack this thread with discussions of FUMBBL.

Let's get back on topic shall we?

Zombie - you've played 20+ games, what lineup did you use, what did you find worked well in terms of strategy?

Did you go with the one vamp that you suggested? Then how did the meat sacks fare on their own?

I just find it hard to swallow that the team should be based around trying to limit the number of OFAB rolls - to the point where you limit the number of key players! I mean in another thread people speak of having fewer line-elves in a starting wood elf team and more position players for their skills. Surely, the same should be the case for this team? I mean, sure the vamps will cause some trouble for their team, but the law of probability says that none of them should be lasting.

Not the best team out there to be sure, but I am playing to have fun with this one - somehting different. But I would still like to know how to play them as well as I can.

At 20+ games, Zombie, you are the most experienced Vamp coach I know of, even if it was an older ruleset you played by. I would appreciate your input.

Spazz

KarlLagerbottom - Nov 27, 2004 - 10:00 PM
Post subject:

Spazz-
In "normal" leagues, and I am not currently in a "Normal" league unfortunately...anyway...my general philosophy in league play is to go heavy on linemen early to force them to progress. I then add the "Skill" players as I go to supplement the developing Lineman core.

For example, I had a Dwarf team of 12 Longbeards...I pleyed 80% of the season with that roster and then took the Blitzers,Runners, Slayers as the season wound down. I won that league. Why? Because the Agility 2 guys were forced to handle the ball and score TD's and get the SPP that might have been wasted on the guys who already have the ball handling skills. I then had a stronger supporting cast and was able to hire the Blitzers/Runners to handle the ball in the Playoffs.

I was around .500 with the Longbeard Team then picked-up momentum as the season came to a close.

I realize that the Thrall's don't have block to start, and have an AV of 7. However, if you focus on forcing them to block and score...you will be better off in the long run.

-Rob (At least I think so. Smile

)

Edit: Maybe start with Dirty Player on a Thrall and get the numbers advantage. Then gang-up on the opponents weaker players with "Real" blocks trying to pile-up CAS points. Again...you are going to struggle early on anyway...why not just forget about the ball for the most part and concentrate onm decimating your opponent. Don't just let them score, but once it gets to a point where you really have to press to stop the TD. Just take the 4 or 5 easy blocks that will probably be there for you in thge middle of the field. Most people that I play will leave you some nice fat block in the middle of the field to shield the ball carrier about to score. Fine...take what they give you. Conceded the TD and pound away in the middle. If everything else goes well...maybee march one guy down towards the endzone to force his hand.

Whats the worst that can happen? He scores and kicks to you....a fresh LOS to pound on. Smile

Zombie - Nov 27, 2004 - 10:13 PM
Post subject:

Spazzfist wrote:

Zombie - you've played 20+ games, what lineup did you use, what did you find worked well in terms of strategy?

Did you go with the one vamp that you suggested? Then how did the meat sacks fare on their own?

That was back in 3rd ed, i think somewhere around 1995 or 1996. Back then, the team had a vampire lord (same stats and cost as the star, no negatives, can earn SPPs), up to 12 other vamps (6448 Off for a bite, Regenerate, Hypnotic gaze) and thralls same as now.

The vampire lord got to do most of the stuff, but the thralls got their fair share as well. The other vamps didn't do all that much. I started with few vamps and lots of rerolls and didn't regret it one bit.

Quote:

I just find it hard to swallow that the team should be based around trying to limit the number of OFAB rolls - to the point where you limit the number of key players! I mean in another thread people speak of having fewer line-elves in a starting wood elf team and more position players for their skills. Surely, the same should be the case for this team? I mean, sure the vamps will cause some trouble for their team, but the law of probability says that none of them should be lasting.

Anyone who knows the slightest bit about wood elves will tell you that in any league that lasts more than 6 games, you should start with 10 line-elves and 2 rerolls. That's a set in stone standard for the team that's been known for ages. Just look at the best ever Blood Bowl strategy guide ever written, the Eclectic Elf, for the perfect example of that.

The same can be said about this team, and even more so, since :
1- There's more use for the rerolls because of Bloodthirst.
2- There's less use for positional players (especially in high numbers) because of Bloodthirst.

Darkson - Nov 27, 2004 - 11:23 PM
Post subject:

I found (with the 2 vamp roster) that by the time you can afford to buy the 3rd/4th/5th and 6th vamp, the original ones should already have a starting skill, in this cse Pro (unless Stat/Double). With the Pro it's not so much of a problem with re-rolls.

I think with 5 (or more re-rolls), I'd be happy to field 3 vamps at one, as long as 2 of them have Pro.

Zombie - Nov 28, 2004 - 03:38 PM
Post subject:

The goal of course is to eventually field all 6 vamps at once! Hence the many rerolls.

Spazzfist - Nov 28, 2004 - 07:04 PM
Post subject:

Zombie wrote:

So your advice is almost 10 years old? And what is more, it sounds like the V Lord did all of the work for your team, who is now no longer available for the team.

Sorry Zombie but I would like to hear practical advice from somebody who is a bit more up to date and has played the team in it's current incarnation.

Anyone out there?

Spazz

Zombie - Nov 28, 2004 - 09:26 PM
Post subject:

Zombie wrote:

And yes, i have played vampires before, for about 20+ games. The team looked very different back then but the basic principle stands.

What part of that didn't you understand? After i posted this, you asked for my advice. If you don't want it, don't ask for it!

I try to be helpful and you just waste my time...

Spazzfist - Nov 29, 2004 - 05:20 AM
Post subject:

Zombie wrote:

And yes, i have played vampires before, for about 20+ games. The team looked very different back then but the basic principle stands.

What part of that didn't you understand? After i posted this, you asked for my advice. If you don't want it, don't ask for it!

I guess I didn't understand the part where "back then" was almost ten years ago and "the team looked very different then" meant that team roster you played no longer exists, and any strategies you used are no longer available to me.

I made it clear that I am playing in a league now with current edition rules. I am looking for advice on the current team roster. You cannot tell me that this is going to help me:

Zombie wrote:

The vampire lord got to do most of the stuff, but the thralls got their fair share as well. The other vamps didn't do all that much. I started with few vamps and lots of rerolls and didn't regret it one bit.

With no vampire lord being available any more - who is supposed to do most of the work? The thralls? The vamps? This is the dilemma I am faced with and having been seeking advice on.

Zombie wrote:

I try to be helpful and you just waste my time...

Thanks for the offer to help. Zombie, but unless you can explain to me how this is meant to help me, it is you that wasted your own time.

Grumbledook - Nov 29, 2004 - 05:25 AM
Post subject:

to be fair saying that the team looked very different back then but the principle was the same was misleading, able to have 12 vamps and the OFAB rules being vastly different makes it a different team imho

sure the starting with more thralls and rerolls still applies but like you said same with starting wood elves or chaos dwarfs

Having played iirc 9 games with mine and not lost a game i went 2v 5rr 7ff route

I wouldn't start with 1 cause the combo of having one gaze the corner of a cage and the other blitzing in is not worth overlooking.

Also 2 players with av8 and regen makes you that touch more durable. You don't have to use both or either vamps each and every turn. 1 vamp will also put a large target on his head.

Now as I have played chaos dwarfs a lot I am used to using the 6337 statline that thralls have. They are by no means weak, just have a bit of a low av. If early yon you use them to get spp and get some guard block tackle. You can really muck in with them and if they do die well they are 40k. You can freeboot them at 20k and use that single thrall to bite on during the match till he goes. Remember you can bite already stunned thralls.

If you use the thralls to move to a square next to where you move a vamp, as long as you only want to do a move (and then maybe gaze) then if you fail the roll you can just move where you wanted anyway, gaze and then bite the thrall.

All this time the vamps will be picking up the odd spp and gaining skills as well. I use them to oversee the team and to get in there to tidy things up should plays start going pear shape.

Spazzfist - Nov 29, 2004 - 05:36 AM
Post subject:

Thanks GD for the great advice! This I can use! Worship

So you would reccomend block and guard for the thralls, eh? I was thinking dirty layer to try to even the casualty score a bit. But I can see your point.

I have been using the thralls as you say - like the carrot on the stick - they go where the vamps need to be, and so if the OFAB roll is failed, then at least they are moving in the right direction.

The hypnotic gaze is still being figured out for all of it's possibilities. I think that I am going to start a new thread to ask questions I have about this team, as there are a few, including HG.

In my line-up I tend to put the thralls forward and hold the vmaps back, that way they are the effective deep defense, and when the play moves forward the vamps have the "carrots" in front and do not have to dodge as they would if they were on the front line and fail an OFAB roll.

Thanks again Grumbledook!

Spazz

GalakStarscraper - Nov 29, 2004 - 06:55 AM
Post subject:

Zombie wrote:

ENTIRELY different team Zombie ... the principals are so different.

The Thralls were AV 8 which meant they were a lot more durable and were 10k extra.

Hypnotic Gaze was a free action making it very powerful.

The Vampire Lord was completely sick on the team.

You could have up to 12 Vampires which allowed to you to work around the OFAB negaskills but just buying more Vampires. And OFAB NEVER injured your own team.

Rerolls were 50k each.

Vampires progressed at 1/2 SPPs.

============================================

Comparing that old team to this new one is not even close to being the same. And yes I've played both. I played the Vampires in 3rd edition to the top of my tabletop league. My Vampire Lord scored 27 touchdowns in 13 games and racked up 118 SPPs in those 13 games ... if not for 1/2 rate SPP growth he would have been a complete monster. I also had 8! Vampires on that team which meant that even with OFAB I reguarly fielded 4 of them with no negative skills at all as OFAB was solely an off pitch negatrait.

I've played this new team and its entirely different. The biggest change to tactics being Hypnotic Gaze. Useable only during a Move Action and as an AG roll that ends your movement dramatically alters strategy with the team. And its not free by a long shot. You have to balance the risk of failing the Bloodlust roll vs using Hypnotic Gaze.

I played the Vampire team in 3rd edition Zombie and it was full on broken ... waaaayyy too good. To compare this new team to that team ... well its just not even close to being the same creature.

Galak

Sputnik - Nov 29, 2004 - 07:20 AM
Post subject:

You forgot to mention that under 3rd, you could get rid of negtraits as well. That also helped having a certain amount of vampires on the pitch at any time. Mr. Green

And since the OFAB was indeed only an off pitch skill, you could concentrate more on using rr for conmpensating your lack of other skills without the fear of ripping apart your team yourself. Wink

Sputnik

KarlLagerbottom - Nov 29, 2004 - 09:39 AM
Post subject:

This might be a stupid question, but I interpreted the Hypno rule that it can be use in place of a block, or at the end of the move. I sort-of put these two together and assumed that the moving Hypno would take the place of the Blitz action. Is that incorrect?

If it is correct, then the Vamp on the corner of the cage would need to have one standing at the corner of the cage to begin with. He would need to do his Hyno, and the other would have to come in to do the Blitz.

Assuming that this is correct, and that the cage is made up of STR 3 players, wouldn't it be better to have the first Vamp throw a 2D block, and then have the second guy blitz? Why bother then with HG at all?

Given that the OFAB is a constant for either, is there a big statistical advantage to just gazing at the opponent as opposed to knocking him down? (Even if the cage is made up of STR 4 guys...all it will take is one assist to get the 2D block anyway...saving the blitz for someone else.)

-Rob

P.S. I guess this is all moot if the moving hypno doesn't count as a blitz, so if someone could clear that up for me I'd appreciate it.

Spazzfist - Nov 29, 2004 - 09:43 AM
Post subject:

KarlLagerbottom wrote:

I guess this is all moot if the moving hypno doesn't count as a blitz, so if someone could clear that up for me I'd appreciate it.

It's moot! Hypno is a "free" action, not limiting the moving and hitting of other players.

Spazz

Grumbledook - Nov 29, 2004 - 10:00 AM
Post subject:

hypo isn't a free action any more

you can only use it in a move action and it ends your movement

the roll is against the ag so for vamps 3+ -1 for each extra tz other than the target

Mordredd - Nov 29, 2004 - 10:15 AM
Post subject:

Well it is free, like a foul, in that it doesn't cost you a square of MA to use it. (And therefore doesn't require a blitz action.)

It's not free in that you can only use it during a move action, but then that's not how I use the term "free" in a BB game myself. (Is that just me?)

Still I had thought that it was all pretty clearly worded in the rules review, except maybe for that "any move action" bit which is a little open to misunderstanding.

KarlLagerbottom - Nov 29, 2004 - 10:24 AM
Post subject:

Sorry...I'm afraid that doesn't clear it up enough for me.

As an example...can one vampire run up to a cage and hypnotize the corner guy...THEN have another vampire move to blitz the ball carrier?

-Rob

Grumbledook - Nov 29, 2004 - 10:34 AM
Post subject:

yes rob

going back to the free action hyp gaze was free in the sense of 3rd eidition it didn't cost a square of movement and you could use it at any time during either your action or someone else on your teams action and then take your own action with that player later in the turn

Spazzfist - Nov 29, 2004 - 10:35 AM
Post subject:

KarlLagerbottom wrote:

As an example...can one vampire run up to a cage and hypnotize the corner guy...THEN have another vampire move to blitz the ball carrier?

Apparently so. Grumbledook did mention that in a post at the top of pg 5 of this thread as one of the reasons to take more than one vampire.

Francesco - Nov 29, 2004 - 11:05 AM
Post subject:

In 3rd ediction Luthor could run on the cage, hypnotize one of the corners and blitz the ball carrier in the same action.

Graf_Arnhelm - Nov 29, 2004 - 11:50 AM
Post subject:

Spazz, I read you on the other thread. Here goes:
I don't have much to say that hasn't already been said.
I use 2 Vamps, 10 Thralls, 4 RR and FF 8 to start with. Leaves 20k in the treasury for the post-game.
Usually, I start by sending my Vamps on opposing key players: first send a Trall who'll be able to assist or help overcome failed BL, then send the Vamp to Blitz (or Block if the opponent is next to him).
My Thralls do most of the work in the first games and tend to get SPPs from TDs and PCs. The Vamps get SPPs from CASs and the odd TD.
So far, I couldn't play League games, only one-off, so what skills to take? Hmm...I guess I'll go the way most Coaches go on other threads: Pro, Block, Dodge for Vamps, though I'll try to give some rarer skills as soon as I can buy a 3rd Vamp (maybe Catch, Mighty Blow, don't know yet).
Block and Dirty Player for the Thralls, but one should become a catcher (Catch, Sure Hands or Nerves of Steel) asap, another one accordingly a thrower. One Thrall with Leader is cool, too, as more RRs are always helpful.
The first thing to buy after the first games are an Apothecary and at least one new Thrall. I'd also buy some Cheerleaders and Assistant Coaches, but that's just me, they don't seem to have much impact on the league I've heard of.
I only played my Vamps 7 times so far, but won my last 2 and came close to winning the one before that. The "Sick"em, boys" tactic and cage building seem to work fine, but that advise works for many teams, so...
But from the beginning, I lead the CASs For column, with at least 3 CASs (always at least one Dead) per game (3 Dead and 1 NI in my first game against Elves was neat).

GalakStarscraper - Nov 29, 2004 - 11:55 AM
Post subject:

KarlLagerbottom wrote:

Yes

Galak

KarlLagerbottom - Nov 29, 2004 - 12:06 PM
Post subject:

Can't get any more direct or clear than that. Smile

Thanks all.

Thanks Galak.

-Rob

absent - Nov 29, 2004 - 01:03 PM
Post subject:

boy i sure miss the pages of galak vs zombie over at BB.com, maybe i should browse here more often Wink

Zombie - Nov 29, 2004 - 07:09 PM
Post subject:

Spazzfist wrote:

Thanks for the offer to help. Zombie, but unless you can explain to me how this is meant to help me, it is you that wasted your own time.

Like i said, the basic principle still stands. That is, rerolls are the key, capitalize on long term potential, thralls get lots of SPPs, etc.

Zombie - Nov 29, 2004 - 07:19 PM
Post subject:

Graf_Arnhelm wrote:

I stopped reading after that point. If you don't see what's wrong with your setup, i'm sorry but there's nothing i can do for you.

Graf_Arnhelm - Nov 30, 2004 - 12:38 AM
Post subject:

'start rant'
Oh no Zombie, pleaaaaase let me partake in your wisdom. Tell me again how you used to play Vamps in 3rd Ed, that was so enlightening the first time.

Should I have said "I'd use" as in "in my first league game..."?
Sure, in a one-off I might as well cut on the FF and take one more Trall or take FF 10 with no treasury left.
But hey, I'm not as overly confident in my own capabilities as you so excuse my stupidity, Oh God From On High Worship

'end rant'

Zombie, I've made a point in not answering your posts anymore, but here, you've said too much or not enough, so such a post of yours doesn't really help.

Francesco - Nov 30, 2004 - 07:25 AM
Post subject:

I think you actually cannot take 10 FF, maybe 9 Twisted Evil

Cervidal - Nov 30, 2004 - 08:28 AM
Post subject:

Graf_Arnhelm wrote:

'start rant'
Zombie, I've made a point in not answering your posts anymore, but here, you've said too much or not enough, so such a post of yours doesn't really help.

Bravo, champ. You really stuck it to him there. Rolling Eyes

I guess I really didn't miss anything at all in my hiatus from these forums.

Apedog - Nov 30, 2004 - 03:43 PM
Post subject:

Mordredd wrote:

You've got me confused now when I thought I understood it

I thought that if I had three Vampires on the pitch they could each make a Hypnotic Gaze at the end of a move action if I wanted them to. Your above post suggests this is wrong and that only I gaze action may be made per turn like a foul - have I got this wrong?

Spazzfist - Nov 30, 2004 - 03:56 PM
Post subject:

You had it right, each vamp can use HG once per team turn, and it has to be at the end of their move.

http://www.bloodbowl.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=2024

Check this out - it has been discussed here.

Spazz

Zombie - Nov 30, 2004 - 09:14 PM
Post subject:

Cervidal wrote:

Graf_Arnhelm wrote:

'start rant'
Zombie, I've made a point in not answering your posts anymore, but here, you've said too much or not enough, so such a post of yours doesn't really help.

Bravo, champ. You really stuck it to him there. Rolling Eyes

I guess I really didn't miss anything at all in my hiatus from these forums.

Thanks Cervidal. And good to have you back!

Mordredd - Dec 01, 2004 - 07:23 AM
Post subject:

Apedog wrote:

Mordredd wrote:

You've got me confused now when I thought I understood it

My post does not suggest that is wrong, you have misread it. There is nothing in what I wrote that suggested that you could only use it once. Confused

(I would have had to have suggested that you could only take one movement action per turn when using hypnotic gaze to do so, and I didn't. There is no such thing as a "hypnotic gaze action".) Any Vampire can use hypnotic gaze at the end of a movement action regardless of whether another Vampire has used the skill that turn.

Apedog - Dec 03, 2004 - 12:01 PM
Post subject:

Must have failed my bonehead roll reading your post Mordredd, sorry Embarassed

I think it was the comparison to the foul action that threw me, and the bit about "any move action". Glad i've been playing it right all along after all.

Mordredd - Dec 06, 2004 - 07:00 AM
Post subject:

Apedog wrote:

Must have failed my bonehead roll reading your post Mordredd, sorry Embarassed

That's quite alright. We all misread things on occasion.

Indigo - Jan 17, 2005 - 03:45 AM
Post subject:

So far most/all of this has been discussing Vamps in leagues - what about tourneys?

My TR110 roster is below, since I don't think the team will be worthwhile taking at TR100.

3 Vamps @ 330k
10 Thralls @ 400k
5 Re-Rolls @ 350k
2 FF @ 20k

Not only do you have strength in depth but you've got plenty of re-rolls.
In terms of skill progression I'm planning:

Vamp > Pro
Thrall > Dirty Player
Vamp > Pro
Thrall > Block/Sure Hands
Thrall > Sure Hands/Block

Note that the first two are interchangeable depending on how many RR I go through when trying this team out. DP goes some way towards evening up the numbers when the casualties start rolling in and Block on a thrall on the LOS is always useful - you are always going to have people wanting to target them. Sure Hands is there to allow some safety in handling the ball if the vampires are proving unreliable.

Any thoughts?

Spazzfist - Jan 17, 2005 - 06:24 AM
Post subject:

Indigo,

Have you played vampires before? Not that I am questioning your setup, but just something you said about seeing how many RRs you got through will help you decide whether or not to get pro.

I think what you porose looks really good. I would highly reccommend , however, that you do get pro for one of the vamps ASAP. I have been playing them in a league for a couple od months now and am finding that my pro is a great skill to have. Too many OFAB rolls going wrong, or even if they don;t it's nice to sometimes have that potential reroll to try and yield a better block result, etc.

But personally, I would not worry too much about the sure hands. Let the AG4 vamps take it. I would think that block is a far more useful skill to keeping your thralls alive (long enough for the vamps to eat them!)

Spazz

Indigo - Jan 17, 2005 - 07:09 AM
Post subject:

I played vampires for the first time last night and took 4RR for 3 vamps. I found that I used re-rolls on bad blocks more than I did on bloodlust so I am wondering if 5 re-rolls really will be sufficient or I will need 5 re-rolls AND pro on two thirds of my vampires. The latter seems somewhat like overkill to me but time and practice will tell. I also toyed with the idea of dropping to 2 vamps but then that feels like losing my best players to the fear of Bloodlust. I'm not sure I like the idea of playing with too many 6337 players!

Spazzfist - Jan 17, 2005 - 07:58 AM
Post subject:

I found getting used tot he stats of the thralls a bit of getting used to as well. I found something that helped me was to think of them as slow clanrats!

I wuld still go with the 3 vamps in a tourney - cause if one gets knocked out or casualties, then having only one vamp is rough.

I would not be worried about too many rerollls for the vamps - like I said if you don't fail the bloodlust, there are many other things you end up wanting to reroll as well!

And for the OFAB - some games my vamps are on a diet, and others they think they're at an all-you-can-eat buffet! Just the laws of averages evening out, I guess! Keep the vamp, and keep the rerolls - go for pro! You'll be thankful you did!

Spazz

Indigo - Jan 17, 2005 - 09:05 AM
Post subject:

Well do you think it's worth taking pro as my first 3 tourney skills then?

I think DP will be far too useful to not take early on but if you think the vamps are THAT bad...!

Spazzfist - Jan 17, 2005 - 09:30 AM
Post subject:

No, I don't think that the vamps are that bad. But as the first skill it would be advisable. You then use that vamp more often and for the more important plays (like blitzes and picking up and passing the ball). You should then go for DP on a thrall and then Pro for the other vamps.

Beyond that, I would maybe get a sense of what the other teams in the tourney are. But definitely it would be wise to have some hitters with block - anything to keep your boys from going down!

Just as a side note always be sure to note have the vamps trying to run in touchdowns when there are no thralls ahead of them! Not unless you have a reroll, as this could really screw you up! Happened to me once!

Keep us posted on how this works out!

Spazz

Doubleskulls - Jan 17, 2005 - 03:05 PM
Post subject:

I'd give the 3rd vamp a skill, instead of skilling up a thrall. Block, Tackle or Strip Ball are all tempting (as otherwise you are pretty useless against Blodgers). I'd be tempted by Kick or another dirty player on the 2nd thrall too.

Indigo - Jan 18, 2005 - 03:19 AM
Post subject:

Strip Ball on a vamp sounds like a good idea. I hadn't thought kick would be much use for a non-speedy team though.

And the thought of two DPs had entered my head but I figured that would just be cruel Vampire

Emberbreeze - Jan 18, 2005 - 03:29 AM
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I think I would give a thrall sure hands early on. that way it frees up a vamp to move forward when reciving. then he can hand off to the vamp in turn 2 of the drive and the vamp can do his thing, by blitzing/passing etc to get the score.

the only way to win with vamps is to push your luck. play cautiously and get creamed. push your luck and fail some of the time, but succeed spectacularly the rest of the time

Spazzfist - Jan 18, 2005 - 05:53 AM
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Emberbreeze wrote:

This might be a good idea. As I said, I have only been playing the vamps in a league, and as such I have onyl achieved three thralls with skills, and they all have block to help keep the LOS intact. But in a tourney it might be good to free up the vamps as Emberbreeze suggests. (Although I must say it is a very comforting feeling to have somebody with AG4 and ST4 being in control of the ball!)

Spazz

Indigo - Jan 18, 2005 - 07:20 AM
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I'm still not convinced by the "play fast and loose - it'll work some of the time" idea for Vampires.

Most of the time you will have 3 ST4 AG4 players with the rest of them frankly suck (no pun). Playing a ride-your-luck game with players like that is going to fail a lot more often than it works!

I think there has to be another approach to using them that doesn't rely on not failing BL rolls or trusting to decent blocks!

Spazzfist - Jan 18, 2005 - 09:25 AM
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I would agree with you that the vampire team can be very deadly, but is more of a fencing foil than a broadsword. Taking wild sweeps and hoping to hit is not the approach I take.

I have found the tactic that has worked the best for me is to use the thralls as the main force of my team - they set up the plays and make most of the hits - sure they are only ST3, but you can count on them to do what you want them to do without going bloodlusty! Use them to form the cage and have the vamps hovering around and making the more surgical strikes - avoiding any protracted combats with the vamps - AV8 doesn't hold out for long!

If you have the vamps run the ball, and you can keep the thralls ahead of them with the cage (kind of like a carrot on a stick for the mule!) then you are in good standing. It also helps to keep the ball with a vamp for as long as possible, as your opponent will tend to devote a lot of players to take him out - this could leave a thrall (or two) to get in an open, unguarded position to receive the pass thrown by the AG4 vampire.

I found my biggest obstacle was getting my mind around the fact the thralls don't really suck (no pun intended). They have the low armour, but otherwise are regular human linemen. I was initally tempted to mollycoddle them, and let the vamps do most of the work. But now I know better.

So hit with them with superior numbers, but don't follow up. Form a cage -but be prepared to move the ball quickly. Foul when the opportunity is great - but be careful - you cannot afford to lose more of your players - the opposition and vampires will see to that! Save the vamps for the specialty plays (passing, blitzing, hypnotizing)- they are too valuable to waste on a brawl.

Hope this is useful!

Spazz

GalakStarscraper - Jan 18, 2005 - 03:17 PM
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So who is going to be the first person to play an NAF ranked Vampire game???

It will be interesting to see the first person to play the team for NAF points and their feedback.

Galak

Emberbreeze - Jan 18, 2005 - 04:16 PM
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I'll be taking them to PKaQ if it happens in April. Don't think I'm going to get to any tournaments before then.

If not it will probably be August before I get the chance to use them Shocked

Graf_Arnhelm - Jan 19, 2005 - 12:31 AM
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I'll play Vamps at the DungeonBowl in Cologne in early March.
But I don't expect more than 1-2 wins. I think I'll go for the "Most Casualties"-Award.

Doubleskulls - Jan 19, 2005 - 12:35 AM
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lol - play Khemri or Ogres instead and you might have a chance. Or you could follow my path and try it with High Elves Wink

Graf_Arnhelm - Jan 19, 2005 - 12:52 AM
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What, own Thralls bitten don't count Wink

?

It's my first ever tournament, with less than ten games ever played Embarassed

It's realy hard to find coaches here, and as I'm moving this February, it'll be hard to play at all. But a friend promised he'd try and find some time to train me before then.
It's more about seeing some of you and being in Cologne again, anyway. And expect some treats from Belgium Wink

"yum-yum"

Indigo - Jan 19, 2005 - 08:40 AM
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I'm tempted to try Vamps at Pearlys II as well, although my Skaven may be painted sooner...

Emberbreeze - Jan 20, 2005 - 03:07 AM
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Well my vamps will be painted, not well, but painted Wink

Indigo - Jan 20, 2005 - 05:49 AM
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Played with them again last night, 9 men vs 11 High Elves. Although my blocking was fortunate I still managed to pull off a draw. Generated a lot more ideas of how to play them Wink

Spazzfist - Jan 20, 2005 - 05:51 AM
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Indigo wrote:

Generated a lot more ideas of how to play them Wink

Anything new to share? I feel that I am still very much at the learning stage myself!

Spazz

Indigo - Jan 20, 2005 - 08:04 AM
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I made a concious effort to not worry about failing Bloodlust - it doesn't cause a turnover remember - and although I tried to do "free" thrall moves or 2 die blocks first, I used the vamps aggressively.

I only had 9 men against 11 but by getting the vamps stuck in his numerical advantage was lost trying to get 2 die blocks on them. On defence I always kept one back and the other two around or forward of the LoS. The thralls moved to wherever was needed and generally caused a nusiance of themselves, so much so they got both CAS and the TD. I'm not denying my dice were good but it felt like my plan actually worked.

Emberbreeze - Jan 21, 2005 - 03:21 AM
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sounds similar to how I'm playing. I wouod never not move a vamp in the open for fear of failing BL. setting up the vamps deep on defence means you nearly always get a 2 die blitz on anyone coming through.

Still getting the hand of HG, which when you master it could be a huge benifit.

I do fear for vamps performance when they are out muscled, the thrall casulties will be huge!

Indigo - Jan 21, 2005 - 05:52 AM
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Against Dwarfs I really struggled but generally speaking I think they will be better against bashy teams since they are consumate cage-breakers.

Playing lizards with them next then hopefully skavs or welfs, giving me a chance to play against all team types.

Spazzfist - Jan 21, 2005 - 06:00 AM
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Emberbreeze wrote:

I do fear for vamps performance when they are out muscled, the thrall casulties will be huge!

It can be very scary! I have faced off against Khemri and orcs in my league, and both times came out okay. (Actually in the game against the Khemri more casualties to the vam team were caused by the vamps themselves!)

Against the orcs, I got a bit cheeky and was taking a lot of half-dice blocks against the black orcs (who had no block skill) with thralls (with block skill). It kept them down for the most part - or at least pushed away so they would have to blitz me to hit me.

In both games the Ko'd box got pretty crowded, but as I said, I came out okay.

Spazz

Darkson - Jan 21, 2005 - 09:05 AM
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Started a Vamp team in REBBL, and boy, am I suffering!

First game is against another Vamp side. We have both taken 4 Cas. He's got 4 BH, I've got 1 Dead, 1 -AV, 1 Niggle and a MNG. Sad

I'll decide at the end of the game on wheter to keep them going or not.

Graf_Arnhelm - Jan 21, 2005 - 10:22 AM
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Must be luck, but in the 10 or so games I played, none of my Vamps was ever hurt, but I always manage to inflict 3 casualties on the opponent (best game so far:1 dead, 1 NI, 2 BH).
I tend to use the "push my luck" way of playing with the Vamps, the opponent then focuses on them and tends to forget the Thralls.

Ethrylain - Jan 21, 2005 - 10:42 AM
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Well my vamp team didn't make half way to the first half. My vamps killed 6 thralls by failling bloodthirst, and my opponent finished the rest of my team.

dwarfcoach - Jan 21, 2005 - 11:46 AM
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Indigo wrote:

Against Dwarfs I really struggled but generally speaking I think they will be better against bashy teams since they are consumate cage-breakers.

I'll play you with Dwarfs if you want, should help you get over your struggle quite easily... Wink

Indigo wrote:

Playing lizards with them next...

Hehehe, can't promise the same with lizzies, my team seems to be doing ok Twisted Evil

Graf_Arnhelm - Jan 23, 2005 - 01:58 AM
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I played against Elfs yesterday.
Lost 0-2, tied 1-1 for CASs.

The 1st half was really good (play-,not scorewise). I succesfully built a cage around one of my Vamps, keeping the other to swarm around and help where needed.
I noticed the Vamps really act as magnets. My opponent was lured to the cage, then I successfuly passed the ball deep in his zone. But the Thrall had to dodge out of TZs and fell down. That's how the other coach got the ball and managed to score in the next turn.
Note to self: keep players near own Endzone to counter such plays.

I struggled in the 2nd half, as the opponent staled the game. He could have scored, but didn't have luck with some GFIs or pick-ups early on, so he didn't push his luck (he's a slow-playing, overcautious sissy, but don't tell him I said that Smile

) after that and only scored in the 7th turn.

Bottom line: I struggle with enemy passing plays, but it is more my fault than the teams'.
I start getting the knack of the team and even used HG to some success.

I also noticed an Apo is a must: he healed a dying Thrall , but a Blood Lust later on caused a NIG on another player. It would have been worse without the Apo.

Now, nothing can stop me from winning the DungeonBowl Rolling Eyes

KarlLagerbottom - Jan 23, 2005 - 09:58 AM
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Just from reading some of the posts above, and without any realy recent experience, it might be a good idea to keep a couple of Thralls back in sort of a safety position.

Not to do the blitz itself, but to atleast get a TZ on the receiver/ballcarrier. This was when you declare the blitz with the vamp, even if you fail the OFAB roll you will still at least have a TZ on the ball carrier.

Another unrelated thought on using HG...a vamp with Guard could really be useful teamin-up with another with Multiple Block. Assists only work with Multiple Block if you are only in the TZ of one of the target models. If the first Vamp gets in there with Guard and Hypnotizes one of the two...you can get more assisters in there against the multiple targets. Now assuming that you have the Thralls involved as mentioned above you should be able to get 2D against multiple opponents without much trouble.

Actually, forget the blitz..imagine having this happen on the line when you receive a KO. Especially to start the game. Smile

Talk about numerical advantage...with luck you could have a pair of multiple block vamps on the line with the third with Guard.

Hmmmm...I do sort of like the Thrall models. Neutral

EDIT: Well I have to back off of this a bit. I didn't know that once the OFAB roll is failed, that makes that vamp only able to do a basic move action. I thought they'd still be able to throw a block if they were next to an opponent or if it was a blitz.

I just played a couple of games on FUMBBL with a Vamp team to see how they worked,,,not good. Neutral

Although I do think that the dice engine is not completely random on there...I think it gets caught in ruts....but that is a different topic for a different thread. Smile

I'm back to the idea of developing the Thralls. Rolling Eyes