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Zinak |
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Post subject:
 Posted: Nov 04, 2003 - 12:12 PM
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The old cards were way too powerful. I think we should all be able to agree to that. It was way too easy for cards to determine the outcome of a game (Burst Ball vs a dwarf team is a great example).
The new system however has the opposite effect. On Saturday I played my first league game (with a new team) in a league where existing rosters are carried over from previous leagues. I was down by 50+ TR.
Handicaps I got:
Permanent IGMEOY... we were both non-fouling passing teams... had no effect
Choose Weather... again both passing teams so I had to pick Nice Day lest I screw myself more than the opponent.. no effect
Palm Coin... I win the coin toss? Worst event ever... I had a 50/50 chance of winning that anyway... no effect
Bribe the Announcer. new team. No one had any SPPs so MVP at start of game made no difference than at end... no effect
Iron Man... this one sounded good... until my catcher never had his armour broken so it didn t matter... no effect
FIVE rolls and no effect? That s crazy. The results need to be better and more universally usefull... some results only help if you roll well or have guys with the right SPPs. Some only help running teams. Some only help when playing passing teams etc... it s too easy to be no help at all. Perhaps have bonus MVPs be a more common result, as they were a nice incentive to play more advanced teams... now you get nothing (except beat) and Handicap table does almost nothing to level the playing field.
Incidentally... I won the match. |
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noodle1978uk |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 04, 2003 - 02:36 PM
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Zinak wrote: The old cards were way too powerful. I think we should all be able to agree to that.
Not in the slightest 
Its bloodbowl, if you want a "fair" strategy I might suggest chess... Dirty tricks, unforseen events and luck in general are a big part of what makes a league colourful and its usually the way trophies are won and lost...
In our league there are enough games to balance things out over a season, and play offs ennsure that one off mishaps don't lose a team the season.
IMO of course  |
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Mordredd |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 05, 2003 - 05:05 AM
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Joined: Mar 03, 2003
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I agree with noodle on this one. In addition the cards lent a healthy amount of random variety to the game that is sadly lacking now. It was also a good thing that teams would occassionally lose re rolls, or their savings, or have a player peaked.
I also think that people are too harsh on the current table. For example, the palm coin derided earlier by Zinak. A certainty is better than a 50/50, and who recieves first often determines the flow of the game. If your opponent scores first and you're the one chasing then the pressure is all on you. In any case the stronger team should win most of the time, so the table should only make it possible to achieve a level playing field. To this end some of the results will be minor to useless. |
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GalakStarscraper |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 05, 2003 - 05:42 AM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
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Keep in mind that JJ's goal which was printed and been printed in BB Mag and in emails comes down to this:
1) TR caps for teams between TR 250 and 300
2) A team 50 TR points weaker should win 1 in 3 games played.
I know who I would make this happen currently, but it is the goal.
Galak |
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Indigo |
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Posted: Nov 05, 2003 - 06:24 AM
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Da Warboss
Joined: Feb 12, 2003
England
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| IMO the cards were way too unbalancing and often reduced the game to a lottery. Having played loads of matches without them, I recently tried it with them and when I "banana skinned" on a dodge to score as well as an unseen shield stopping a TD pass I didn't think "That's BB - jolly and random !" it was more like "I'm beating this guy but because he happened to draw two cards I've been denied". Totally ruined the game for me... I'm pleased they've gone never to return. |
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Zinak |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 05, 2003 - 08:18 AM
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| I have seen and been victimized by same thing Indigo is talking about countless times. The old cards often determined the outcome of the game when the two coaches were of comparable skill. Wackiness is cool, Bloodbowl should be fun... but losing the game due to randomly allocated cards just sucks. It really devalued good coaching and strategy. |
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"It's just 10 points"
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 05, 2003 - 08:19 AM
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Joined: Oct 24, 2003
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| Yeah, cards being gone is definitely a good thing. |
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noodle1978uk |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 05, 2003 - 09:11 AM
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Well I think some people have been playing without cards for too long
There are ways and means of avoiding the worst a card can throw at you and the best players do this - by not putting themselves into a risky situation when they KNOW their opponent has a card up their sleeve...
I rarely see a game decided totally on cards anymore. Even Burst Ball, Assassin and trampoline trap etc have become less intense now people know how to deal with them. Simply saying "their unbalancing" is a bit simplistic - so are the dice...
Why do you find them so unbalancing? Is your league set up so that one defeat due to cards would ruin a team's season? What is your main reason for playing Blood Bowl?
These are the questions I asked when setting up the league's rules. I can't think of anyone who now dislikes our setup (well not to my face haha! )
Quite frankly kick off results (riot, blitz, pitch invasion and even perfect defence) and the weather have a far greater impact. Should we remove those as well?
As for Jervis comments:
1) TR caps for teams between TR 250 and 300
2) A team 50 TR points weaker should win 1 in 3 games played.
I agree with 1 though this is happening in our league under the current rules (LRB with a few additions, and cards, which tend to pull teams to around 250, both ways)
2 - Horribly simplistic approach JJ! What I would agree with is 1 in 3 wins a team with a team rating of 2/3 the other wins...
Vitally important since TR is NOT linear...
e.g 150 will usually thrash 100 even with cards (about 1 in 5 they win from our records - over 2000 games)
BUT! A team of 250 beats 200 only 65% of the time....
So I think you have to think PERCENTAGE - like our handicap is calculated in our league.
If JJ reduces the team progression AGAIN I will lose faith in Blood Bowl as a game. Year on year reducing the speed at which a team develops will not impress my public! Some of whom just don't play that many games - why bother HAVING team progression - i.e. why bother playing...
So I'd like to see more game balancing effects rather than crippled team progression.
And our league now has 28 members and has seen 78 games played since Oct 4th!!!  : |
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Indigo |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 05, 2003 - 09:35 AM
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Da Warboss
Joined: Feb 12, 2003
England
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Kick Off table results can be planned for - e.g. a balanced setup in case of PerfectD, player placement in case of quick snap etc. and some of the more unbalancing ones, like Riot & Pitch Invasion are toned down in tournaments to try to prevent one bad KO roll ruining a players game when they've paid to play.
The old "dice are not balanecd" statement is simply untrue. Dice are STATISTICALLY balanced, so if you make a dodgy with a human blitzer then you will fail 1 in 3 attempts. That kind of risk can be factored into your plans. Indeed, that's why players advise doing "less risky" actions first! The cards negated all of that - you could create a play whereby you had tactically outsmarted your opponent but then they simply used a card that ruined it (and IIRC usually capitalised on it and scored  ). Skill had nothing to do with it, just the luck of the draw. The cards were not statistically balanced. Imagine playing in a tournament final - would you prefer a palmed coin & a extra training card, or a trampoline trap & unseen shield (for example)?
Nah, they're broken!
Some of them make good handicaps though, when suitably adapted.
The moral of the story?
Coach skill, tempered with luck, should decide things on the pitch. Off-pitch, let the handicaps help. |
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noodle1978uk |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 05, 2003 - 10:09 AM
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Indigo - I would NEVER advocate using cards or even basic team progression at a tournament - and we don't!
I was talking about long term leagues...
If JJ wants to make a 100 rated team beat a 150 rated team 1 in 3 times he can either...
1) Make the handicap better - i.e. like cards (which we use now!)
2) make the 150 rated team "worse"
If 2 is selected I doubt very much we will take a blind bit of notice of the new rules in our league.
Shafting team development just because of a rather dubious desire to "balance" the game is the wrong way to go in my opinion
And as for cards - you quickly know the deck and CAN plan for cards... In fact we regularly do... In they way we play |
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mikeyc222 |
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Posted: Nov 05, 2003 - 10:40 AM
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i must echo a previous sentiment...if you want strategy play chess.
but i play orcs, what do i know. lol
we don't use cards in our league but i would like to see a second league started up for "fun" that uses cards. i personally think the reason people started to hate on the cards is because they started to take the game too seriously and losing wan't "fun"
remember people, as cool as BB is, it is just a game after all. |
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Zinak |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 05, 2003 - 10:44 AM
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I don t see how you prepare for Burst Ball or Invisible sheild. Some cards were guaranteed drive killers, other guaranteed TD scorers (was it Inspiration that let a player auto-succeed in ALL rolls they made).
I think the cards were sometimes worse in long term leagues. I remember one team having Doom and Gloom (I think that s the one... loose a RR permanently, it s been a while) played on him in three games. He had zero rerolls going into his 6th or 7th game.
Over the course of the season cards could make or break teams.
Kick off table can seriously hamper a drive, but nothing close to what the cards could do. |
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Tutenkharnage |
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Posted: Nov 05, 2003 - 11:37 AM
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Joined: Feb 11, 2003
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Xtreme wrote: Are you still using your famous grab bag cards or is this a new set?
It's a new set. Well, it's "new" in the sense that it hasn't been seen before, although it's "old" in that old standbys (e.g., Knuckledusters) are still there. The difference is that we've gone back to designing cards that all have roughly the same amount of impact - or that could work out for you - but we've removed the old "cause a turnover" clauses and the "automatic score" bits. It's a highly refined, heavily tweaked set that has stood up untouched now for the last 7 months (100 games).
Basically, the deck functions as a reflection of most of this thread: it adds variety, it adds unpredictability, it avoids turning the game on its ear when possible, and it gives the 'dogs a chance. Not a certainty - a chance. We've had a couple big upsets that were helped in part by cards, but the cards were never enough by themselves - the underdog needed a perfect sequence of rolls at one point, or a key bad roll by the opponent, etc. Similarly, we've had near upsets that were undone by a super play by one of the favored team's top guns: an interception, or a key blitz, what-not, what-have-you. The point is, the cards often made the game more interesting. And they do so in a more consistent manner than the current table.
You can see a chart of the cards with playing card assignments in the Rules section of the NFL website:
http://www22.brinkster.com/angelli/bloodbowl
If you'd like a printable copy of the cards in actual card format, send me a message. If I get a lot of messages, I'll put the cards on-line in that format as well.
Cheers!
-Chet |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 05, 2003 - 11:44 AM
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Joined: Feb 10, 2003
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Well, I have to admit, I stopped playing BB before the cards were released, but having got a set and reading through them, I'd have found them fun for a few games, but there are to many unbalanced cards in there.
However, for a fun non-league game, I'd be happ to play with them. |
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noodle1978uk |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 06, 2003 - 02:23 AM
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Zinak wrote: I don t see how you prepare for Burst Ball or Invisible sheild. Some cards were guaranteed drive killers, other guaranteed TD scorers (was it Inspiration that let a player auto-succeed in ALL rolls they made).
I think the cards were sometimes worse in long term leagues. I remember one team having Doom and Gloom (I think that s the one... loose a RR permanently, it s been a while) played on him in three games. He had zero rerolls going into his 6th or 7th game.
Over the course of the season cards could make or break teams.
Kick off table can seriously hamper a drive, but nothing close to what the cards could do.
You can prepare for burst ball by scoring earlier than you otherwise would - I've seen it before (of course the guy was bluffing and he didn't have burst ball ) - and then receive the ball again...
"Inspired play" allows a player to pass every roll - great as you can get an easy TD out of it - but thats a waste. Use it to get yourself out of trouble, evening things up...Using it when you could have scored without it is also a waste. It is a "god" card tho
BAD HABITS permanently reduces your rerolls
Its interesting that you think cards can permanently affect a team - well yes! - 3 bad habits in 3 games is monumentally unlikely. Try shuffling the deck 
I think you will find ageing permanently affects a team. And a pitch invasion killing a player on 74 SPPs, that kinda affected my team permanently...
If anything adding cards for more randomness will on average have no effect (what with the cards being neutral overall).
Cards tend (in my experience) to be an incentive for people to play (ooh I might get something good ) which can only be a good thing... |
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