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Indigo |
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Post subject:
 Posted: Nov 06, 2003 - 09:18 AM
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Da Warboss
Joined: Feb 12, 2003
England
Posts: 2168
Location: England
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mikeyc222 wrote: Tutenkharnage wrote: I believe firmly in the former, but I'm quite against the latter. Boosting a team because of handicap is an incentive to play a bigger team simply to ramp your team up with an influx of cash, SPPs, whatever. There's no focus on team development or play - it's more akin to the "ever-increasing spiral" of TR development in vanilla 3E.
but what if you are the ONLY low TR team in a league where you don't choose who your opponents are but are told who they are. what then? you are DOOMED to be decimated every single match. in open format leagues i can see where it may be a problem but with structured leagues you might as well drop out. then again, if you play in a league like mine and even consider dropping out you are threatened with not being aloowed back in the league because you messed up the "careful planning of their season."
so your statement isn't really applicable in all situations. only in open format leagues.
this seems like a more extreme situation as most leagues tend to be balanced. remember every league has to have a bottom team... take it on the chin 
consider reasoning with them - ask if it's possible to reset your team if it's that bad, but keep your league results to date.
or find a more reasonable group of players  |
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noodle1978uk |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 06, 2003 - 09:29 AM
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Its a very familiar situation in our league - but then our league is rather big - so oddball stuff comes up a lot more!
Reseting the team could be WORSE...
If you have some bad luck (lose 4 players dead despite conceding just 4 casualties like I did!) then your entire season could be over...
Now I don't like people giving up on their team - and I wouldn't anyway (just complain all season ) but with the cards (or a better handicap table!) there would be some incentive to keep plugging away
Rather important in a "fixtured" system too
Anyway - am off home now |
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mikeyc222 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 06, 2003 - 09:29 AM
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Joined: Feb 15, 2003
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granted, but what is the point of resetting and being put EVEN FURTHER behind?
and the situation isn't THAT extreme as it happens to at least one team in our league every single season. |
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Doubleskulls |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 06, 2003 - 09:41 AM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Mar 05, 2003
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noodle1978uk wrote: lets focus on the handicap table.. Anyway of re-introducing surprise?
Why can't you have a table result that is you automatically succeed a die roll? And one that allows you to make your opponent automatically fail a dodge/catch/GFI whatever.
Although you'd both know your opponent had the automatic success/failure to play you can't control when he does it. So you have interesting tactical situations where you try to force your opponent to use the handicap. |
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lackey |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 06, 2003 - 10:35 AM
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Joined: Jul 04, 2003
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Mordredd wrote: The problem with the level of randomness with the cards in BB was that both teams got them. You could have 3 each without a handicap.
I think that the problem is in the amount of difference between the effects of the cards. Randomly drawing 3 cards and getting a burst ball and 2 minor cards has much the same effect on the game as drawing 1 card and getting burst ball, especially if your opponent doesn't get any helpful cards. What is needed (and what Chet's table appears to do) is to have a more subtle effect on the game, and to have less difference in magnitude of game effect between the best and worst cards. The original decks were basically a couple of great cards with lots of filler.
Re: randomness. Yep, I'll be wrong on the details  , been some time since I played any of these games. I was mostly thinking about the card-based systems, which they've phased out now (I think, correct me if I'm wrong...). These tend to limit you to one copy of a spell/effect/etc per game, so only one player could possibly have pick the most powerful effect, while the other player would make do with crud. This effect was more apparent for the WFB system (which would have 10 cards per school of magic), but the same problem occured with the BB cards, although this was diluted by the large number of filler cards. |
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Mordredd |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 06, 2003 - 10:47 AM
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Joined: Mar 03, 2003
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Quote: A higher TR team may have lower odds for failing actions, but will still fail them - that's not good or bad luck, just statistics.
Yes, in the long term. The problem with these statistics is that they only hold true over literally hundreds of results. The luck comes with the distribution. Do you roll 6 on the 3+ then 3 on the 6+ or 3 on the 3+ and 6 on the 6+? My Ogre team is a good case to examine as every player has to make a roll to move. There are turns when I don't fail one, and turns when I fail as many as 8. The last game most turns were like the latter whereas in the previous game they were mostly like the former.
Quote: The cards are biased, so although still random you are more likely to get overpowered cards because there are more overpowered cards in there.
Of course the cards are biased. They're a handicap aren't they? And the few overpowered ones are there to balance out the underpowered ones. Gives the team a surprise advantage they weren't expecting. Or in the case of the underpowered ones not enough of a boost to equal their opponents. Besides, there is a simple solution to those that would, now, be too much (merchandising, blatant foul). Take the card out and burn it. 
I have not been saying that a surprise is the solution to a lower TR team winning, just that it is more exciting. The not knowing what's coming. It is far more nerve shredding than knowing exactly what the other guy's got, and then coldly planning to neutralise it.
Quote: That desperate long bomb, or throwing every man at the rolling cage only to stop it on turn 8.
Besides, your idea of unconventional play seems to be my idea of stupidly unlikely to work play. It's not that easy to put together a successful 'unconventional play anyway. What are you going to do? Dodge with Dwarves? Block with Wood Elves? Many of the cards allowed one of your players to make some sort of heroic/briefly brilliant play that, when used at the right time, could allow you to score an unexpected TD. That is one of the things that I am after. A slight and temporary improvement in a player combined with the element of surprise.
As for extra men on the pitch, and the like, cheating has always been a part of the game. The cards were the only way that you could cheat without, er, cheating.
Other cards reduced the other teams capacity to field players, through illness/press gang etc. And then there were ones like half time team talk which boosted your teams morale/team strength/whatever at later stages of the game, not just at the beginning. The old cards had variety and depth, and were spread across the game, from start to finish. Some of the cards are too harsh to be used any more, but that doesn't make the whole system broken.
Quote: Using the cards, you still have the chance that in a more even contest, say 10 or 20 TR difference, one team gets an uber-card and then is at an unfair advantage.
I'm afraid that is still possible. 6 Wood Elves miss the first drive. The Dwarf team then spends 8 turns beating the crap out of the other 6. The other half of the team turns up for the second half to find all their friends KO'd or worse. Balanced? |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 06, 2003 - 04:38 PM
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Joined: Oct 24, 2003
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Mordredd wrote: I have not been saying that a surprise is the solution to a lower TR team winning, just that it is more exciting. The not knowing what's coming. It is far more nerve shredding than knowing exactly what the other guy's got, and then coldly planning to neutralise it.
More exciting, yes, but less rewarding. I guess it all comes down to what you love most about the game: the randomness or the strategy. Both are valid answers, and we just have to accept that not everyone likes them equally. Right now the trend is towards less randomness and more strategy, and i have to say that i like that trend! |
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Lazerus_101 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 06, 2003 - 05:47 PM
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yeah but I believe some of what makes blood bowl fun to play and not just like all the other games is the sometimes hilarious and whimsical things that can happen.
I remember back in 40k when Ork Madboys were fun. Now they are just boring. |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 06, 2003 - 07:09 PM
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Joined: Oct 24, 2003
Posts: 1671
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| Like i said, to each his own. |
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Dave |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 07, 2003 - 01:36 AM
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da Veiz-Prez
Joined: Feb 10, 2003
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I thinkl the problem is not the randomness of the cards (not more random than Pitch Invasion od Blitz, can make quite a difference) but the fact that they, at least most of them, have an immediate impact on the game.
Take 'is it a TD?' .. it not only robs your opponent off a TD (if played wel) but will see him lose a player into the crowd (4/6 chance) that's kinda harsh |
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noodle1978uk |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 07, 2003 - 02:35 AM
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Joined: Jun 09, 2003
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Doubleskulls wrote:
Why can't you have a table result that is you automatically succeed a die roll? And one that allows you to make your opponent automatically fail a dodge/catch/GFI whatever.
Although you'd both know your opponent had the automatic success/failure to play you can't control when he does it. So you have interesting tactical situations where you try to force your opponent to use the handicap.
I like this idea a lot This keeps the "surprise" element in a way. You could even bring back dirty tricks like "mine" in the same fashion... I also like the idea (can't remember where I saw it) of different levels of handicap.
Mordredd - we keep blatant foul - Its a fantastic card.I will probably cap merchandising...
I suppose one of the reasons we keep cards (or would beef up the handicap) is because our league is a) enormous and b) has Team ratings between 100 and 364 |
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Mordredd |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 07, 2003 - 05:20 AM
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Quote: More exciting, yes, but less rewarding.
Sorry, but I don't accept that. How is it less rewarding?
I don't accept that you have to choose between randomness and strategy either. The handicap table is random, so you can't plan your game until you know what you've got. There is still plenty of strategy if you don't know what's coming.
Do you act like it's going to be a complete cake walk and play boldly with big risks, and hopefully a high score? Or do you play really cagey and safe until you find out what cards your opponent has up his sleeve? Or do you just play how you always play on the grounds you can't do anything about his underhand tricks anyway?
I agree with Lazerus_101 that the cards added an undertone of humour, and an overall air of the game being played for fun. I think that many people are now taking the game way too seriously now. Hence the big fuss, and in some cases over-the-top hostile abuse, about IP.
Yes, some of the cards were kinda harsh, but if you failed to guard against 'is it a TD?' when your opponent had a card you deserved it. Besides, being denied a TD is a good way of making a surprise win for the under dogs more likely. |
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Indigo |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 07, 2003 - 05:22 AM
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Da Warboss
Joined: Feb 12, 2003
England
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kinda what I was meaning 
it removes the unbalancing suprise and makes you think more rather than relying on card... |
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Mordredd |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 07, 2003 - 05:28 AM
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I have now had the chance to read through Tutenkharnage's table. Looks good to me, though I notice that the jacks/queens/kings weren't used.
The table could be expanded with another 12 entries, and a D8 used for the tens column instead of a D6. More variety = more fun.
People could then roll on the table, or buy a cheap deck and draw cards instead. (Lose a card? Chuck the lot and buy a new one.) |
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noodle1978uk |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 07, 2003 - 05:51 AM
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Indigo wrote: kinda what I was meaning
it removes the unbalancing suprise and makes you think more rather than relying on card...
Well thats not how you should use cards! If you go around relying on a crad you will inevitably end up with egg on your face. The strategy of knowing EXACTLY when to use a card is amazingly complex - I've only realised that recently watching the "newbies" in our league play....
How many times do I see burts ball played on the first TD? Wrong decision! Use it as insurance on YOUR possession and take more risks...
Or assassin played just as a TD was about to be scored - again - wrong time! Use it when he has his ball carrier in HIS half - to get a TD...(hopefully)
last night I used razzle dazzle to get OUT of trouble (of course he used inspired play - nullifying the cards completely!)
How you use cards has a strategy all of its own... Good players make the most of them, worse players waste them... The same is true of defending against cards. Good players always have their team set up to cope with any eventuality, worse ones do not, and consequently they are badly affected by cards where the experienced player is not...
Individually I think the cards are fine. Its the fact that you can get multiples stacking (mine+pit trap+burst ball) that causes the problem.
I like the idea of buying dirty tricks/magic items with money (or handicap points) keeping the TD stoppers as one per match - then randomly rolling/choosing an "event" which may or may not apply to both teams. Thats how I would do it.
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