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coachblacknife |
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Post subject:
 Posted: Dec 04, 2003 - 03:04 PM
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Joined: Feb 16, 2003
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Tutenkharnage wrote: Don't forget:
* Really Stupid
* MA 4
* AG 1
I'll dig out the stat analysis a couple of our guys ran. Yo be honest over 100 throws there isn't much of a difference.
Tutenkharnage wrote: Don't forget: your league is your league. You don't like the loss of Ogres? Let 'em play for the Orcs! The world won't stop spinning. The BBRC won't be knocking on your door with a cease-and-desist order 
Quite. However it'd be nice to know why the BBRC decided to make such a team-changing update to the rules. Thinking behind it, reasons for (and against!). Gives a more 'complete' answer for us BBowl geeks Besides our league sent a fair few players to the BBowl GT and intend to do so again - so we're tied into using the BBRC rulings... |
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-Andy-
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"Changes made for changes' sake, does not make the changes great."
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Mordredd |
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Posted: Dec 05, 2003 - 05:22 AM
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Joined: Mar 03, 2003
England
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Location: England
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It is also worth noting that when a league is split on an issue it is usually those people wanting the official, i.e. LRB, rules who win out. As it stands now those who want Ogres in Orc (or stunty or Dwarf) teams need a substantial majority within the league to keep them. It is not always that easy to just house rule these things back to the way they were.
So I agree with coachblacknife, the why is important to know. For example if the Ogre was removed for character rather than balance it takes much of the heat out of the argument, if there is one. |
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Tutenkharnage |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 05, 2003 - 06:20 AM
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Joined: Feb 11, 2003
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Character and balance, then 
(Seriously.)
-Chet |
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Mestari |
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Posted: Dec 05, 2003 - 07:11 AM
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| Thanks for the answer Chet! I have to agree with the assesments made above - even though you are entirely correct that we can houserule things any way we want, everyone realises that there must've been a reason for you guys doing something. And as the idea goes that you've been selected into the RC for your merits, those reasons should, by definition, be pretty good. I wouldn't blame us for wanting to know what they were! We just want to be convinced. |
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Teemu Tokola aka Mestari
Member #52
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coachblacknife |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 06, 2003 - 03:31 AM
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coachblacknife wrote: Page 63 of the Handbook. Second paragraph:
"Orcs have always respected brawn over intelligence, and so they frequently make use of black orcs and ogre players in their teams..."
There's the character
Tutenkharnage wrote: Don't forget:
* Really Stupid
And if I have a player next to him, he's on a 2+, same as the Ogre, so where's the balance? (Still looking for those stats, mind). If i'm throwin a Goblin, then the little guy will be next to the Big Guy... |
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-Andy-
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"Changes made for changes' sake, does not make the changes great."
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 06, 2003 - 04:02 AM
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Joined: Oct 24, 2003
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coachblacknife wrote: And if I have a player next to him, he's on a 2+, same as the Ogre, so where's the balance? (Still looking for those stats, mind). If i'm throwin a Goblin, then the little guy will be next to the Big Guy...
That's not always true. Remember that a TTM is treated as a normal pass, and as such, the player (in this case the big guy) can move before the throw. An ogre could run up to a goblin and throw him, but a troll would need someone to help him figure out how that's done. |
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coachblacknife |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 08, 2003 - 03:55 AM
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Joined: Feb 16, 2003
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Okay, assuming that i'm always going to have at least one player next to a RS player who is about to throw (because it'd be rude not to)...
If a Troll Longbombs, he fails 80.7% of the time to the Ogre's 76.8%
If a Troll Longpasses, he fails 74.9% of the time to the Ogre's 69.9%
If a Troll Shortpasses, he fails 69.1% of the time to the Ogre's 60.6%
The differences are all much amaller than one pip on the dice (16.7%) and as such don't really matter. It assumes that the RS is a 1/6 due to ANY player standing next to the RS player, because doing otherwise is a futile exercise in both stats and BBowl
Stats worked out as follows:
For Troll:
'BH' + AH + Fumble + Inaccurate + Accurate
Where 'BH' = 1/6
AH = 5/6 x 1/6
Fumble = 5/6 x 5/6 x 1/2
Inaccurate = 5/6 x 5/6 x 1/3 x 1/2 (Longbomb)
5/6 x 5/6 x 1/2 x 1/2 (Longpass)
5/6 x 5/6 x 2/3 x 1/2 (Shortpass)
Accurate = 5/6 x 5/6 x 1/6 x 1/3 (All ranges)
The chances of the Goblin landing on his feet are in there somewhere.
Ogre similar, but without Always Hungry.
Cheers, |
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-Andy-
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"Changes made for changes' sake, does not make the changes great."
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Doubleskulls |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 08, 2003 - 05:08 AM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Mar 05, 2003
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Just because of the Always Hungry Ogres are 20% better at TTM than Trolls (because 5/6 of the time Trolls fail that roll).
The extra point of AG only makes a difference to quick passes - and you are almost always going to make short or long passes for the 1 turn score. Everything else is the same for them both. |
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Ian 'Double Skulls' Williams
SLOBB
NAF Racial Results
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coachblacknife |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 08, 2003 - 04:18 PM
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Doubleskulls wrote: Just because of the Always Hungry Ogres are 20% better at TTM than Trolls (because 5/6 of the time Trolls fail that roll).
The extra point of AG only makes a difference to quick passes - and you are almost always going to make short or long passes for the 1 turn score. Everything else is the same for them both.
Can't say that I agree with the "20% better" quote, not least because 1/6 is only 16.7% Because AH is only one step in the throw, the effect it has on the final result is reduced. I'll go ask the guy that did this and we'll run over his A-Level stats again; he may be rusty after all! |
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-Andy-
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"Changes made for changes' sake, does not make the changes great."
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 08, 2003 - 04:28 PM
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Joined: Oct 24, 2003
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coachblacknife wrote: Can't say that I agree with the "20% better" quote, not least because 1/6 is only 16.7% Because AH is only one step in the throw, the effect it has on the final result is reduced. I'll go ask the guy that did this and we'll run over his A-Level stats again; he may be rusty after all!
5 is 16.7% lower than 6, but 6 is 20% higher than 5.
The stats are wrong. The 20% should prevail all the way. That is, if you use % like it's meant to be used. So whatever % you get for the ogre, it should be 20% higher than that for the troll. |
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coachblacknife |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 11, 2003 - 02:37 PM
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Zombie wrote: 5 is 16.7% lower than 6, but 6 is 20% higher than 5.
Lol! Quite literal I suppose. I'll stick my hands up and admit that I was just talking percentage chances on the dice and not relativity.
Still, the point remains that differences are tiny, even at 20%. |
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-Andy-
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"Changes made for changes' sake, does not make the changes great."
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Tutenkharnage |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 11, 2003 - 03:01 PM
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The problem with the "small differences" argument is that it's self-defeating. If the differences are really that small, Andy, then you (as an Orc coach) have no real gripe with the balance; you're left with the character issue. That can be argued both ways, but Orcs are definitely closer to Trolls than they are to Ogres.
-Chet |
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westonwyse |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 11, 2003 - 10:48 PM
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Joined: Apr 22, 2003
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I have to admit, I'm a little upset about the lack of Ogres on all of the teams I play now. Of course, IML, there are two gobbo teams with Ogres (one with two), a dwarf team, and... another team I can't remember right now that always freeboots one. Convincing them to keep the Ogres probably won't be very hard. 
Now if only I can get them to use the Chaos Halfling rules...  |
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--Tiny, Dwarven Coach
"Us Dwarves may be short, but I prefer to think of myself as 'in weapons range of your groin.'"
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LordCruSel |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 14, 2003 - 05:26 PM
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Joined: Dec 14, 2003
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| Ok I can understand that orcs and dwarfs can both get along with minimal problems with out ogres but what about gobbo teams and halfling teams? I mean halflings just have treemen left which to be honest are a bit shit (due to the fact they only turn up for the whole game 50% of the time). I personaly liked having one treeman and one ogre on my team to make sure I always had one big guy on the pitch. I cant believe that they changed the ogre rules and did not alter the take root rules. |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 14, 2003 - 05:52 PM
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Joined: Oct 24, 2003
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Three things.
One, the goblin and halfling teams are supposed to suck. That's the whole idea behind those two teams.
Two, we never saw any trolls or treemen in any team the way it was before. Now we'll see them. This added variety (and added flavor that comes with it) is why they removed the ogres. That's always been very clear.
Three, we (the coaches) are the ones who asked for this change! |
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