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LordCruSel |
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Post subject:
 Posted: Dec 14, 2003 - 06:08 PM
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Joined: Dec 14, 2003
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Ok I can understand that it was a group of coachs who asked for this change but from the sites ive visited it seems that alot of coachs dont like the change, Also I know that halflings are supposed to be a bit naff but why does that make it right to make them even worse?
I agree halflings and gobbos are fun teams first and winning teams almost never but surely removing one of the few players they have will just make all halfling and gobbo teams ideantical and thus boring (and remove variaty). If your playing players who keep playing cheese teams you penalise them not everyone that plays that team.
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coachblacknife |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 15, 2003 - 04:13 AM
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Joined: Feb 16, 2003
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Caveat: This is not personal, far from it. I'd just like to see an end to this interminable thread with one straight, official answer.
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Right guys, i'm going to pursue this one last time and see if anyone can give a straight answer:
I'd like to know the thinking behind the removal of Ogres from the Orc team.
Pretty straight forward question as i'm assuming the removal was proposed to the BBRC by one of it's members, discussed, and then executed. The initial proposal would certainly make interesting reading, as would the finished statement of intention. So, the BBRC's statement of intention would make a good answer, rather than anything else 
Why am I still confused, well there's not been a straight answer posted yet. Chet said that it was:
"Character and balance"
Which is fine standpoint, but at what point is it unbalanced?
"If the differences are really that small, Andy, then you (as an Orc coach) have no real gripe with the balance; you're left with the character issue."
I'll assume that was 'Orc Coaches' as I don't play Orcs. I don't have much of a problem playing against them and have always seen them and the Humans as the premier, tough, starting teams. No gripe with the balance, well that's true too, so where then does the 'removal for balance sakes' reason come in? Enquiring minds need to know...
Character then?
"That can be argued both ways, but Orcs are definitely closer to Trolls than they are to Ogres."
Er, where? Why? In the Handbook it states that they have an affinity to strength and brute force (see my quote earlier this thread). This is stated before the Trolls & Goblins. Character? Remove the Goblins...
Moving on to Zombie's post now...
"One, the goblin and halfling teams are supposed to suck"
Amen to that. Comedy over competitiveness.
"... we never saw any trolls or treemen in any team the way it was before. Now we'll see them. This added variety (and added flavor that comes with it) is why they removed the ogres. That's always been very clear."
(1) Reduce the Big Guys to ONE on the Goblin/Halfling teams, but keep the TWO option for Trolls/Treemen. This gives coaches the option to play in character and get the advantage To be honest though I agree with the total removal of Ogres from these two teams as they weren't there in the first place!
(2) We'll see variety by REMOVING players? Oh dear. And - as can be seen by this thread (and Mestari's reply above), this have never been 'very clear'; particularly for those coaches (i.e. the majority) who aren't online, or don't subscribe to this list!
"Three, we (the coaches) are the ones who asked for this change!"
I'll refer back to my point above. I'm online now and then and I haven't seen a general poll on this topic. Ever. |
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-Andy-
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"Changes made for changes' sake, does not make the changes great."
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GalakStarscraper |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 15, 2003 - 05:01 AM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 1562
Status: Offline
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coachblacknife wrote: "Three, we (the coaches) are the ones who asked for this change!"
I'll refer back to my point above. I'm online now and then and I haven't seen a general poll on this topic. Ever.
When TBB comes back up Andy ... I'll link in the poll and/or discussion threads. I know there was a larger thread on TBB on this topic for a while.
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GalakStarscraper |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 15, 2003 - 05:23 AM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 1562
Status: Offline
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LordCruSel wrote: Also I know that halflings are supposed to be a bit naff but why does that make it right to make them even worse?
Experimental rules for moving Take Root onpitch ... Andy has suggested that we might see an onpitch Take Root varient when the playtest vault goes live. Which would make the Halflings reasonablely playable again.
Quote: Before taking any action with a player with this characteristic, roll a D6. On a 2+, he is fine and may continue his action as normal. On a 1, he loses track of the game and takes root. For the rest of the drive, he is considered to have an MA of 0 and cannot Go For It. He will still be able to block adjacent opponents without follow-up. If it version goes in the playtest vault, something along these lines is being considered.
Combine onpitch Take Root with the new Master Chef and Fling become playable again. My Halfling team is currently retired because I agree that Flings are unplayable even for fun with the current ruleset (which is the worst Flings have ever had it since 3rd). I look forward to onpitch Take Root so I can break them out again.
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GalakStarscraper |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 15, 2003 - 10:26 AM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
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Mordredd |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 16, 2003 - 09:24 AM
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Joined: Mar 03, 2003
England
Posts: 728
Location: England
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| The poll was hopeless. All it achieved was some vague consensus that Ogres should be removed from some teams, but not specifically which ones. I don't have the time to read through all the posts to find out if the possibility of limiting Ogres to 1 per stunty team was discussed. In any case none of this discussion made it over here. |
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coachblacknife |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 16, 2003 - 01:15 PM
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Joined: Feb 16, 2003
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| Thanks for that Galak. I totally appreciate the effort. |
_________________
-Andy-
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"Changes made for changes' sake, does not make the changes great."
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LordCruSel |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 16, 2003 - 06:03 PM
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Joined: Dec 14, 2003
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| Ok having seen the poll I have to agree that alot of coachs wanted the change cheers for putting the link up. I personaly dont like the changes but I see that it was a majority vote. Lets just hope that changes to the take root skill come in next time. |
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Xtreme |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 16, 2003 - 09:31 PM
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Da Boss
Joined: Mar 12, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 1096
Location: United States of America
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While all of these discusions were going on on TBB very few Orc coaches spoke up. There were far more Dwarf coaches trying to save the Ogres for them. But even they were grossly outnumbered. But then once the change happens every Orc coach acts like they were blindsided by it.  |
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Mordredd |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 17, 2003 - 09:27 AM
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Joined: Mar 03, 2003
England
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Location: England
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I was damnit  . However I don't even read TBB yet alone post on it so I guess there's no real surprises there then . |
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westonwyse |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 17, 2003 - 11:17 AM
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Joined: Apr 22, 2003
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Zombie wrote: Three, we (the coaches) are the ones who asked for this change!
None of the coaches I play with asked for it. They are mostly pretty upset about it, actually. I know I certainly never asked for it. So just because some coaches -- far, far from all coaches -- asked for something doesn't mean that the idea doesn't have opposition (as this thread obviously demonstrates). I mean, seriously, what were we going to to do? Complain to the BBRC that we like a rule? That's kind of silly, isn't it?
And if you want to get treemen on halfling teams (which, BTW, should not be designed to suck, especially if you plan on actually selling the minis) and trolls on gobbo teams, then it's a lot easier to make a limit of one ogre on those teams than it is to cut them completely and piss off a great many players who absolutely did not want them removed.
That's what's called a compromise. They work wonders sometimes. |
_________________
--Tiny, Dwarven Coach
"Us Dwarves may be short, but I prefer to think of myself as 'in weapons range of your groin.'"
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 17, 2003 - 12:17 PM
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Joined: Oct 24, 2003
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westonwyse wrote: I mean, seriously, what were we going to to do? Complain to the BBRC that we like a rule? That's kind of silly, isn't it?
The rule change was announced almost a year ago. That's when you should have complained if you didn't like it. Now it's too late and complaining now won't achieve anything. |
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Tutenkharnage |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 17, 2003 - 03:37 PM
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Joined: Feb 11, 2003
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Random thoughts:
1. The Halfling team shouldn't be designed to totally suck, assuming we define "totally suck" as "have zero chance of being fun, challenging, and remotely competitive." The Halfling team shouldn't be designed on a level with the "real" teams, however.
2. Many coaches like the Orc teams losing Ogres; many don't. That's all well and good. The BBRC didn't poll anyone on this issue; it was raised to us, we discussed it, and we took a vote. If you don't like the decision...house-rule it!
3. That said, Zombie's assertion that "complaining now won't achieve anything" isn't true. That statement assumes that the BBRC would never overturn a previously published rule. That's not the case.
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Deathwing |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 17, 2003 - 05:25 PM
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Former President
Joined: Feb 10, 2003
England
Posts: 1289
Location: England
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Tutenkharnage wrote: That statement assumes that the BBRC would never overturn a previously published rule. That's not the case.
-Chet
Bring Back OSPA!!!  |
_________________
 Ex-UK NTO,ex- Senior Tourney Co-Ordinator, ex-VP and ex-President....because Lycos says that new members don't know who I was..
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 17, 2003 - 05:36 PM
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Joined: Oct 24, 2003
Posts: 1671
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| OSPA wasn't made by the BBRC. |
_________________
They will slowly add bits of the vault in on each RR leading up to 2007, starting with LRB 4.0, so it will be a slow and agonising death for BB.
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