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Tutenkharnage |
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Post subject:
 Posted: Feb 27, 2004 - 01:22 PM
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Joined: Feb 11, 2003
Posts: 620
Status: Offline
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If people continually "forget" this, they're obviously cheating, just as they'd be cheating if they continually "forgot" that their MA -1 player is actually MA -1. If your gaming group is full of such rank-and-filers, I suggest you filter the WA description so that fouls don't give a +2 bonus.
The rules have holes. It's the nature of the beast. But this isn't really one of them. Allow me to post one, since you've pfooti has mentioned it repeatedly in this thread:
1. The pass description states that the player "MUST" throw the ball at the end of his move.
2. Stand Firm allows you to fail a dodge and remain standing, although the player's turn is finished.
So what happens if an Orc Blitzer with Stand Firm declares a Pass action and fails a dodge before he can unload the ball?
Ultimately, "the rules don't say I can't" has always been the worst argument. And that's what this "look, ma, no foul" argument boils down to.
-Chet |
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Carnage4u |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 27, 2004 - 01:30 PM
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Joined: Feb 10, 2003
Posts: 36
Status: Offline
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GalakStarscraper wrote: Forgive my tone.
We get screamed at about how bad WA is and shouldn't something be done.
We do something and the SAME folks screaming that something should be done are on this thread complaining about the fix. GEESCH!!!
pfooti that may not be you, but your posts make this sound like such a confusing rule when its about as clear cut a rule as I've seen.
Galak
Galak. YOu know how much i hate the current wild animal and roll to unstun and have been going crazy an many forums over it.
This new current change I like a lot and i agree 100% with you on what you are now saying.
So it is NOT all people who were arguing before. I bet if when this gets out more most of them willl not complain.
This foul issues is just going to be a minor comment that i belive is CRAP anyway because i dont know one league that would allow such a tactic anyway. |
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GalakStarscraper |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 27, 2004 - 01:34 PM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 1562
Status: Offline
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pfooti wrote: Really. The letter of the rule says that you "move a number of your squares equal to your MA
By the way ... that one really is poor wording and I'll see if I can get Jake to fix that when the LRB 3.0 gets done. It should definitely say up to not equal to.
Galak |
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GalakStarscraper |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 27, 2004 - 01:36 PM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 1562
Status: Offline
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pfooti wrote: All of these need to be handled at the moment the error was made. "This is a Blitz action", "no wait, you already blitzed once", "Oh, okay then this is a Move action". You don't get to say "wait, that was your second Blitz" after the player has gotten up, dodged around, thrown a block, rolled armor/injury, and moved on. Or at least you don't in our league. Maybe you should be able to.
Actually in my leagues, you definitely could stop him and make him take it all back as long as it was still during the player's action.
This may be why I don't see this whole foul declared and not done as a non-issue ... and yes, I'd force someone to hit someone if he declared a blitz with a WA.
Galak |
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pfooti |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 27, 2004 - 02:10 PM
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Joined: Oct 29, 2003
Posts: 81
Status: Offline
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Tutenkharnage wrote: 1. The pass description states that the player "MUST" throw the ball at the end of his move.
Where?
I have on p13, top left: "The player is allowed to make a normal move, and after he has completed the move he may throw the football."
I can't find any language on p13 that says you have to throw the ball if you've declared a pass action. Once you've picked a target, you probably can't stop if your opponent surprises you with some passblockers, but if you just say "Pass action", and move your player, I don't see you committed to having to pass.
Related issue: I have no problem with declaring a Blitz/Foul and being unable to follow through because you fell over, or failed a standfirm dodge. But what I was talking about was: does that make the action that player took turn into a Move (and retroactively change the results of the WA roll)?
So what if a ratogre declares blitz, gets up, and attempts to dodge away from the Beastman with tentacles. He fails the tentacles roll. He can continue acting (it isn't like failing a dodge with stand firm). Is he now obligated to hit that beastman? Even if he was supposed to be blitzing someone else? I just want to be clear on this. |
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Pfooti, Bishop of the OCN
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Hoshi_Komi |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 27, 2004 - 02:39 PM
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Joined: Nov 23, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 550
Location: United States of America
Status: Offline
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| look on page 8 like he said under pass action. quit being an idiot. If you allow the rule to be abused you deserve the crap you get along with it. |
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Tutenkharnage |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 27, 2004 - 02:48 PM
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Joined: Feb 11, 2003
Posts: 620
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pfooti wrote: Related issue: I have no problem with declaring a Blitz/Foul and being unable to follow through because you fell over, or failed a standfirm dodge. But what I was talking about was: does that make the action that player took turn into a Move (and retroactively change the results of the WA roll)?
So what if a ratogre declares blitz, gets up, and attempts to dodge away from the Beastman with tentacles. He fails the tentacles roll. He can continue acting (it isn't like failing a dodge with stand firm). Is he now obligated to hit that beastman? Even if he was supposed to be blitzing someone else? I just want to be clear on this.
A failed Tentacles roll ends the player's action immediately. The coach declared the Blitz, and the Blitz is wasted. The player can't hit the Beastman. This applies to all players, not just Wild Animals. It's just like an Ogre who declares a Blitz and then Boneheads: the Blitz is gone.
-Chet |
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Carnage4u |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 27, 2004 - 02:51 PM
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Joined: Feb 10, 2003
Posts: 36
Status: Offline
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pfooti wrote: Tutenkharnage wrote: 1. The pass description states that the player "MUST" throw the ball at the end of his move.
Where?
I have on p13, top left: "The player is allowed to make a normal move, and after he has completed the move he may throw the football."
I can't find any language on p13 that says you have to throw the ball if you've declared a pass action. Once you've picked a target, you probably can't stop if your opponent surprises you with some passblockers, but if you just say "Pass action", and move your player, I don't see you committed to having to pass.
Related issue: I have no problem with declaring a Blitz/Foul and being unable to follow through because you fell over, or failed a standfirm dodge. But what I was talking about was: does that make the action that player took turn into a Move (and retroactively change the results of the WA roll)?
So what if a ratogre declares blitz, gets up, and attempts to dodge away from the Beastman with tentacles. He fails the tentacles roll. He can continue acting (it isn't like failing a dodge with stand firm). Is he now obligated to hit that beastman? Even if he was supposed to be blitzing someone else? I just want to be clear on this.
question.. are you making these arguments for the sake of it, or do you argue this way in actual games? |
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pfooti |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 27, 2004 - 02:53 PM
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Joined: Oct 29, 2003
Posts: 81
Status: Offline
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Tutenkharnage wrote: A failed Tentacles roll ends the player's action immediately. The coach declared the Blitz, and the Blitz is wasted. The player can't hit the Beastman. This applies to all players, not just Wild Animals. It's just like an Ogre who declares a Blitz and then Boneheads: the Blitz is gone.
from the LRB, p 37:
LRB wrote: If the result for the tentacled player is higher than the result of the moving player, then the moving player is held firm and may not leave the square or attempt to move any further.
By my read of this, it just prevents you from moving any further and doesn't end your turn. So you could throw a block (but not follow up), or even pass the ball (I was trying to get out of the TZ but couldn't. Oh well.) So the question stands.
I'm not trying to be ornery really. I'm just trying to map out the special cases so they can be addressed in a timely manner. |
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Pfooti, Bishop of the OCN
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pfooti |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 27, 2004 - 02:57 PM
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Joined: Oct 29, 2003
Posts: 81
Status: Offline
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Carnage4u wrote: question.. are you making these arguments for the sake of it, or do you argue this way in actual games?
In actual games this almost never comes up. And if it does, and my opponent and I can't agree on an answer, we would dice for it (4+ it goes my way).
But I'm trying to argue this out (and to death) so when it does come up in somebody's game (and it will), we know what to do. I just learned, for example, that in the eyes of the BBRC, you can't decline to block, foul, or pass after declaring a Blitz, Foul or Pass action (even though in the case of Pass, the rulebook seems clear that you could decline to pass). So I'm in a situation where I don't understand the rules like I thought I did and I want to figure out how it works.
Mostly, I think that's because I'm a programmer and think in terms of special cases and whatnot. |
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Pfooti, Bishop of the OCN
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Hoshi_Komi |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 27, 2004 - 03:01 PM
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Joined: Nov 23, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 550
Location: United States of America
Status: Offline
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pfooti wrote: [(even though in the case of Pass, the rulebook seems clear that you could decline to pass
look on page 8 of lrb...it says pass action: at end of move player MUST pass...no option there. |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 27, 2004 - 04:16 PM
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Joined: Oct 24, 2003
Posts: 1671
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It's obvious to me that in a blitz action, you don't have to actually make a block. It's always been this way (well, as far back as i can remember anyway). If the wild animal wants to waste a blitz action and not make a hit, let him, it's his loss.
As for fouls, this one isn't quite as obvious. I indeed you don't have to foul in a foul action, that's a just loophole with wild animals, since wasting a foul action is usually no big deal at all. However, i believe (not sure) that foul actions have always been stated in a way that forces you to foul, just like pass actions. If that's the case, then we're safe. Otherwise, something definitely needs to be changed in the rules. Making the foul mandatory (if it isn't already) would be the easiest way to solve the problem. |
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They will slowly add bits of the vault in on each RR leading up to 2007, starting with LRB 4.0, so it will be a slow and agonising death for BB.
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pfooti |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 27, 2004 - 04:31 PM
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Joined: Oct 29, 2003
Posts: 81
Status: Offline
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gken1 wrote: pfooti wrote: [(even though in the case of Pass, the rulebook seems clear that you could decline to pass
look on page 8 of lrb...it says pass action: at end of move player MUST pass...no option there.
Ah, that's where it is. That means that there is a typo in the LRB which needs to be fixed. Since the may-pass rule comes on page 13 and the must-pass rule on page 8, theoretically the may-pass rule should override the must-pass rule, in the same way a modified-1 fumble can override an otherwise accurate pass (in the case of an AG 6 thrower).
But I'm willing to concede the must-pass rule. But not the must-block-during-blitz rule. So I could waste my team's Blitz action if I needed to get my WA up (if there's nobody in range to hit).
Oh, and I agree with Zombie. Making the foul mandatory is the easiest way to solve the problem.
But it isn't as easy to make fouling mandatory as it is to make passing mandatory. In the one case, you have the ball (probably), so you've gotta throw it. In the other case, you are required to move your player in the right way in order to get into fouling position. They're different, and the must-foul rule would require more difficult enforcement (moving the player backwards maybe). |
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Pfooti, Bishop of the OCN
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GalakStarscraper |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 28, 2004 - 07:27 AM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 1562
Status: Offline
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Zombie ... several BBRC have rechecked the LRB ... there is definitely not a MAY in the Foul action description ... so it is already required. Using a foul action to only move is clearly cheating. This is not a debate item really.
As for the Pass ... yeah page 8 and 13 say May and then Must. Personally I've always allowed MAY for Pass actions in my leagues. But we'll see if we can get them to be the same word.
And yes, Blitz does not require you to hit someone. The rules are pretty clear on that. I guess I'll need to check with the rest of the BBRC if they are okay with a WA using a Blitz action to only move.
Galak |
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pfooti |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 28, 2004 - 12:21 PM
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Joined: Oct 29, 2003
Posts: 81
Status: Offline
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Okay, no more yelling on my part. It makes perfect sense to require a foul in a Foul action. I hope you clear up the pass confusion, and really hope it comes down with a may-pass rather than must-pass.
And if you want to waste a Blitz to move your WA, that doesn't seem like the end of the world, since a Blitz is really useful (and a Foul is frequently not as useful, since it is hard to end a Blitz in a TO, for example).
And thanks (I guess) to the hard working and underappreciated BBRC who listened to us to make the WA a little better than it used to be. |
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Pfooti, Bishop of the OCN
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