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Doubleskulls |
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Post subject:
 Posted: Mar 02, 2004 - 04:29 AM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Mar 05, 2003
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Posts: 2627
Location: Kent, UK
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| The last Rules Review specified that to get the SPP only the intended receiver can catch the ball. |
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Ian 'Double Skulls' Williams
SLOBB
NAF Racial Results
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 02, 2004 - 04:32 AM
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Joined: Oct 24, 2003
Posts: 1671
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| Are you sure about that? I haven't seen that anywhere! |
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They will slowly add bits of the vault in on each RR leading up to 2007, starting with LRB 4.0, so it will be a slow and agonising death for BB.
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 02, 2004 - 05:01 AM
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Joined: Feb 10, 2003
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Posts: 2696
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Haven't seen that either!  |
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_____ and rankings - that is all
#27 of the "24 club" (due to some dodgy accounting)
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Doubleskulls |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 02, 2004 - 05:23 AM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
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| Maybe I'm mistaken, as I can't seem to find the reference now either. I did raise the issue with SkiJunkie about the JavaBowl client - but he said the BBRC had clarified it. |
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Ian 'Double Skulls' Williams
SLOBB
NAF Racial Results
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Tutenkharnage |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 02, 2004 - 06:22 AM
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Joined: Feb 11, 2003
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It said no such thing. Neither did we, to the best of my knowledge. But to get a completion point, a player has to meet the following requirements:
1. He threw an accurate pass.
2. A team-mate caught the ball.
-Chet |
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Mordredd |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 03, 2004 - 09:38 AM
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Joined: Mar 03, 2003
England
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Location: England
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We have always played must throw, for the simple and elegant reason that it's the only way to interpret the rules in a non-contradictory fashion.
LRB p8
Quote: Pass: The player may move a number of squares equal to his MA. At the end of the move the player must pass the ball.
LRB p13
Quote: Once per team turn a player on the moving team is allowed to make a Pass action. The player is allowed to make a normal move, and after he has completed the move he may throw the football.
The problem comes when you reduce the entire passage on p13 to the single word "may". Taken out of context it is easy to see it as stating that throwing the ball is optional. Read as part of the whole passage it can also be read as saying "the player is allowed to throw the ball after making his normal move". It is then not about whether the player is required to throw the ball but about the sequence of the actions he can take, i.e. he can move then throw but not throw then move, or move then throw then move again.
In other words you can either replace the word "may" with "has the option to", or with "is allowed to". Both are valid substitutions, but only the second doesn't contradict the definition of Pass action on p8. |
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Doubleskulls |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 03, 2004 - 09:55 AM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Mar 05, 2003
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@Mordredd,
I think that is probably the most sensible interpretation of the text.
IIRC pp13 is the same wording as 3rd ed - while pp8 is the LRB 1.0 text so ought to carry greater weight too.
I'd still prefer the rule to be may. |
_________________
Ian 'Double Skulls' Williams
SLOBB
NAF Racial Results
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Clan_Skaven |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 03, 2004 - 10:17 AM
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Joined: Aug 19, 2003
Niagara Falls ON, Canada
Posts: 2604
Location: Niagara Falls ON, Canada
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Mordredd wrote: We have always played must throw, for the simple and elegant reason that it's the only way to interpret the rules in a non-contradictory fashion.
LRB p8
Quote: Pass: The player may move a number of squares equal to his MA. At the end of the move the player must pass the ball.
LRB p13
Quote: Once per team turn a player on the moving team is allowed to make a Pass action. The player is allowed to make a normal move, and after he has completed the move he may throw the football.
The problem comes when you reduce the entire passage on p13 to the single word "may". Taken out of context it is easy to see it as stating that throwing the ball is optional. Read as part of the whole passage it can also be read as saying "the player is allowed to throw the ball after making his normal move". It is then not about whether the player is required to throw the ball but about the sequence of the actions he can take, i.e. he can move then throw but not throw then move, or move then throw then move again.
In other words you can either replace the word "may" with "has the option to", or with "is allowed to". Both are valid substitutions, but only the second doesn't contradict the definition of Pass action on p8.
I agree, on page 13 they are saying once per team turn a player may make his normal move, & he may then throw the ball. (that is true in any turn i play, I may do that. Not sure where the argument is.) On page 8 however, After declaring a Pass you must throw the ball. (The must is put there because a Pass action was declared) The may is there just to let you as a player know that you are allowed to make a pass at any time once per team turn, but you must make that pass after you have declared it.
I have in the past misinterpated other rules, but this one in my opinion, is very clear & easy to understand. But then again we can all look at the same rule & get totally different opinions on it.
Rod |
_________________
"2006 SPIKE Champion!"
"Death-Bowl IV & V, Most Casualties!, Death-Bowl VI Best Team!"
"2008 Dagger Bowl Champion"
Host of the Warpstone Cup, Q'ermitt Bowl & the Hope Bowl
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pfooti |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 03, 2004 - 10:26 AM
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Joined: Oct 29, 2003
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Mordredd wrote: We have always played must throw, for the simple and elegant reason that it's the only way to interpret the rules in a non-contradictory fashion.
...snip...
In other words you can either replace the word "may" with "has the option to", or with "is allowed to". Both are valid substitutions, but only the second doesn't contradict the definition of Pass action on p8.
Not really. When you go to starbucks, you are allowed to purchase a latte. You are not required to. When you travel by air, you must have your bags searched.
I think the "may" on p13 is unreconcileable with the "must" on p8. You can finesse it, but by doing so what you're really doing is saying: "I believe (a priori) that the rule should be must-pass and here's my justification for it" rather than "Because of these reasons I have come to believe that the rule should be must-pass".
I admit, I had the a priori belief that the rule should be may-pass (largely since because that's the way I've been playing it (possibly incorrectly, I will admit) since 3ed.
This is simply an area where the letter of the rule is impossible to comprehend, and the spirit of the rule is unknown. Let's put it to the BBRC next october and find out.
Finally, despite what I just said, if you agree that the page 8 rules say must and the page 13 rules say may, then the rule is may-pass. There is an established way to handle contradicting rules, the rule that is later in the LRB takes precedence.
Consider an AG6 player throwing a long bomb and getting a 2. The passing rules say this is accurate, the fumble rules say this is a fumble. The fumble rules, being later in the book, take precedence. The same argument can be made for the must-pass and may-pass rules on p8 and p13 respectively. |
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Pfooti, Bishop of the OCN
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pfooti |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 03, 2004 - 10:34 AM
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Joined: Oct 29, 2003
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Clan-Skaven wrote:
LRB p13
Quote: Once per team turn a player on the moving team is allowed to make a Pass action. The player is allowed to make a normal move, and after he has completed the move he may throw the football.
I agree, on page 13 they are saying once per team turn a player may make his normal move, & he may then throw the ball. (that is true in any turn i play, I may do that. Not sure where the argument is.) On page 8 however, After declaring a Pass you must throw the ball. (The must is put there because a Pass action was declared) The may is there just to let you as a player know that you are allowed to make a pass at any time once per team turn, but you must make that pass after you have declared it.
Look again at the rule on p13. "Once per team turn ... allowed to make a Pass action". Okay, that means you are allowed to declare up to one Pass action per team turn. The next sentence describes the content of a Pass action: "The player is allowed to make a normal move, and after he has completed the move he may throw the football."
Note that it doesn't say: "After he has completed the move, he throws the football" or "he must throw the football". No, it says "After he has completed the move, he may throw the football". In the absence of the rule on p8, I'd say this is perfectly clear as a may-pass rule.
The only thing that confuses the issue is the fact that on page 8, the rules say "The player may move a number of squares equal to his MA. At the end of the move the player must pass the ball."
But look at what I highlighted in the p8 rule. This means (strictly interpreted) that a player passing the ball may either move his MA or not move. It doesn't say "move up to his MA", and it also doesn't say "may make a normal move", which means that according to the p8 rule, a passing player may not GFI. But we all know that to be rubbish. Of course you can GFI when you're passing the ball. The rule was misworded. It is altogether possible that the word "must" was a mistake as well. |
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Pfooti, Bishop of the OCN
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Doubleskulls |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 03, 2004 - 10:50 AM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Mar 05, 2003
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Location: Kent, UK
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Don't spend too much time deconstructing and interpreting GW rules. For down that path lies madness and insantity. They aren't lawyers even if some of you are...
What about Hand offs? |
_________________
Ian 'Double Skulls' Williams
SLOBB
NAF Racial Results
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pfooti |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 03, 2004 - 10:55 AM
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Joined: Oct 29, 2003
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Doubleskulls wrote: Don't spend too much time deconstructing and interpreting GW rules. For down that path lies madness and insantity.
What does it say about me that this is my fun-time break? I'm working on my dissertation, so thinking about this stuff is a break from my real work, but keeps me sharp in ways that HALO wouldn't. |
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Pfooti, Bishop of the OCN
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Clan_Skaven |
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Post subject: sorry
Posted: Mar 03, 2004 - 11:10 AM
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Joined: Aug 19, 2003
Niagara Falls ON, Canada
Posts: 2604
Location: Niagara Falls ON, Canada
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Sorry if I mis-quoted ith LRB. But that does not change the facts.
Once per team turn a player on the moving team is allowed to make a Pass action. The player is allowed to make a normal move, and after he has completed the move he may throw the footbal.
(All this rule on page 13 is saying is, its telling you what you can do by passing the ball. If anything its a step by step instruction to tell you what you as a coach will need to make a pass)
The page 8 quote deals less to do with passing & more to do with Player Actions.
What I think people are mixing up here is, the quote from page 8 is telling what you must do after you declare a Pass Action. The Quote from page 13 is telling you what you may do if you do decide you are going to declare a pass action.
I bet this would not be as much of a confused issue, if the 2 quotes were in reversed order in the LRB.
Page 8. deals with what is done after a Pass Action is declared
Page 13 deals with what can be done if a Pass Action would be declared
I still think the clarity of this rule is as clear as a window. Anyone still disagree?
Rod |
_________________
"2006 SPIKE Champion!"
"Death-Bowl IV & V, Most Casualties!, Death-Bowl VI Best Team!"
"2008 Dagger Bowl Champion"
Host of the Warpstone Cup, Q'ermitt Bowl & the Hope Bowl
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pfooti |
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Post subject: Re: sorry
Posted: Mar 03, 2004 - 11:50 AM
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Clan-Skaven wrote: Sorry if I mis-quoted ith LRB. But that does not change the facts.
Page 8. deals with what is done after a Pass Action is declared
Page 13 deals with what can be done if a Pass Action would be declared
I still think the clarity of this rule is as clear as a window. Anyone still disagree?
I do.
I don't think you misquoted the LRB. But I think you're misinterpreting what it means. Both p8 and p13 say something about what what happens before, during, and after a Pass action is declared. Which you believe is up to you. |
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Pfooti, Bishop of the OCN
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Mordredd |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 03, 2004 - 11:50 AM
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Joined: Mar 03, 2003
England
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Quote: Not really. When you go to starbucks, you are allowed to purchase a latte.
Yes but if you declare a "purchase latte" action you have to follow through and pay for it. 
Quote: I think the "may" on p13 is unreconcileable with the "must" on p8.
But you are wrong, as I have already explained. 
Quote: You can finesse it, but by doing so what you're really doing is saying: "I believe (a priori) that the rule should be must-pass and here's my justification for it" rather than "Because of these reasons I have come to believe that the rule should be must-pass".
Er, no. I used the different definitions of the word "may" to arrive at the two different possible interpretations of the rule as written on p13.
Quote: This is simply an area where the letter of the rule is impossible to comprehend
Again, wrong. It is comprehensible and I have explained it.
Quote: Finally, despite what I just said, if you agree that the page 8 rules say must and the page 13 rules say may, then the rule is may-pass. There is an established way to handle contradicting rules, the rule that is later in the LRB takes precedence.
Again, wrong. There is the basic rules and the advanced. Once you have integrated the advanced rules into the basic then the advanced take precedence in the case of a contradiction. Both p8 and p13 are in the basic rules, so neither can over rule the other. The fumble rules are in the advanced rules section.
Quote: In the absence of the rule on p8, I'd say this is perfectly clear as a may-pass rule.
Yes, very clever except that the rule on p8 is there. You can't just pretend it isn't to justify your position.
Quote: But look at what I highlighted in the p8 rule. This means (strictly interpreted) that a player passing the ball may either move his MA or not move.
This is daft. Nowhere in the text does it say he must move his full MA. (Unlike passing where there is). It says may make a move equal to it, which can be read as giving him the option of moving less. In addition, as GFIs are in the advanced section they will not have been taken into account in the wording of the rules in the basic section. There is no evidence to suggest that "must" was a mistake, so unless it is changed "must" remains the rule. |
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