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Mordredd |
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Post subject:
 Posted: Mar 08, 2004 - 07:24 AM
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Joined: Mar 03, 2003
England
Posts: 728
Location: England
Status: Offline
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| I agree with Sputnik on rolling dice for decisions. It is much better to get a refs ruling. |
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Deathwing |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 08, 2004 - 08:13 AM
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Former President
Joined: Feb 10, 2003
England
Posts: 1289
Location: England
Status: Offline
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| Disagree in this case, it's simply too open to intrepretation. AndyH might well call it differently to Brian for example. A simple D6 roll simply facilitates moving on with the game rather than setting a precedent. What's more if I was refereeing a dispute on this subject I'd impose a coin toss/dice roll anyway rather than apply *my* intrepretation of a rule that clearly requires official clarification and tell the players to get on with it. |
_________________
 Ex-UK NTO,ex- Senior Tourney Co-Ordinator, ex-VP and ex-President....because Lycos says that new members don't know who I was..
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Sputnik |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 08, 2004 - 08:59 AM
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Joined: Feb 11, 2003
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Quote: Disagree in this case, it's simply too open to intrepretation. AndyH might well call it differently to Brian for example. A simple D6 roll simply facilitates moving on with the game rather than setting a precedent.
I see your point here. However, the problematic situation I have in mind is table A rolling the dice to come up with option X, while table B in the same situation comes up with option Y. Now imagine one coach of each table playing against each other....roll the dice again? 
Yeah, the same may happen with refs making different calls, but at least the could in theory discuss difficult calls during the matches or afterwards among themselfs to be consistent for future situations. And yes, I know about refs and their calls at tournaments... 
Has a touch of the weather roll at the start of the match. 'Let's roll for the rules today, shall we?' 
Sputnik |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 08, 2004 - 09:01 AM
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Joined: Oct 24, 2003
Posts: 1671
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| I've never liked the D6 approach either. No matter what the rule is and how unclear it is, the tournament organizer should have a ruling one way or the other. |
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They will slowly add bits of the vault in on each RR leading up to 2007, starting with LRB 4.0, so it will be a slow and agonising death for BB.
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Clan_Skaven |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 08, 2004 - 10:40 AM
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Joined: Aug 19, 2003
Niagara Falls ON, Canada
Posts: 2604
Location: Niagara Falls ON, Canada
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I agree, just as long as those who are competing in the Torney agree with the Ref's final ruling (even if its not the way way they play at home)
A roll of a die to determin a rule has never sat well with me in any game. |
_________________
"2006 SPIKE Champion!"
"Death-Bowl IV & V, Most Casualties!, Death-Bowl VI Best Team!"
"2008 Dagger Bowl Champion"
Host of the Warpstone Cup, Q'ermitt Bowl & the Hope Bowl
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GalakStarscraper |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 08, 2004 - 02:19 PM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 1562
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My own opinion ... The Pass and Handoff actions should be MAY type events.
Personally ... for all actions I think the following makes some sense:
Blitz, Foul, Hand-off, and Pass actions once declared must be completed (ie throw the block, try to foul, toss the ball) unless a failed dice roll occurs after the declared action. Failed dice rolls that are made successful by team or skill reroll still count as a failed dice roll for this.
Thus if you need two tough Dodges to pull off an action and end up needing to use your Dodge or BT skill or that team reroll for the first, you can decide to not follow through with the action. Otherwise, all actions are a MUST carry through event.
Not sure if this is better or not ... just my thoughts really.
Galak |
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Bevan |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 08, 2004 - 02:41 PM
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Joined: Feb 13, 2003
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GalakStarscraper wrote: My own opinion ... The Pass and Handoff actions should be MAY type events.
Personally ... for all actions I think the following makes some sense:
Blitz, Foul, Hand-off, and Pass actions once declared must be completed (ie throw the block, try to foul, toss the ball) unless a failed dice roll occurs after the declared action. Failed dice rolls that are made successful by team or skill reroll still count as a failed dice roll for this.
Thus if you need two tough Dodges to pull off an action and end up needing to use your Dodge or BT skill or that team reroll for the first, you can decide to not follow through with the action. Otherwise, all actions are a MUST carry through event.
Not sure if this is better or not ... just my thoughts really.
Galak
I would prefer if they just stayed as "may" events regardless of dice rolls.
Your suggested ruling is rather complex and needs to be slightly modified since Break tackle could be used without actually "failing" a roll (in the sense of needing a reroll) but could still influence success later. Other situations could arise where a player needs to detour (e.g. to avoid a tackle player) and finds that he can't then reach where he'd planned.
I must admit I was once in the embarrassing position of declaring a Blitz and finding that even with 2 go-for-its I was one square short of the player so all I could do was get a tackle zone on the ball carrier. 
If any of these actions is a "must" do, then we need to clarify whether a team suffers a turnover if they fail to carry out the action. This was the rule in 4th Edition, but not at present. Or whether you simply "must" do it in the way that you must roll a dice when you dodge. This causes problems when the player declares an action that cannot actually be carried out, as in my case above. |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 08, 2004 - 02:47 PM
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Joined: Oct 24, 2003
Posts: 1671
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| And i would prefer if they were "must" regardless of failure. But i would rather they were always "may" than it being dependant on other conditions. I agree, too complicated. |
_________________
They will slowly add bits of the vault in on each RR leading up to 2007, starting with LRB 4.0, so it will be a slow and agonising death for BB.
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Mordredd |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 09, 2004 - 03:59 AM
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Joined: Mar 03, 2003
England
Posts: 728
Location: England
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I too prefer "must" regardless of failure.
In the "embarrassing" case cited by Bevan I see no reason for any penalties. The fact that you've thrown away your blitz is enough.
As for avoiding the tackle player, I think that one is just a poor excuse and that the player, having declared the action, should just take the risk. I would have thought that in most friendly games the player would have been made aware that the tackle player was there whilst he was planning his move. (And I don't mean friendly in the "non-competition sense".) |
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Mordredd |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 09, 2004 - 04:38 AM
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Joined: Mar 03, 2003
England
Posts: 728
Location: England
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Quote: Well, maybe I'm dense then.
I don't believe that, and I never meant to imply, or overtly state that at any time. I'm sorry if I made you think that I did.
Quote: This will probably be my last post on the matter, since we're really not convincing each other (and I still disagree with both you and Clan Skaven that the different phrases can be read in a sane, non-contradictory manner).
This will be my last attempt to persuade you that it can be read in a sane , non-contradictory fashion. (Has your mother ever told you "you may do the washing" or "you may do the drying up"? I don't think there is any implied option in either of those statements. ) This is, of course, a different argument from whether the throw should be optional or compulsory.
My original argument went like this. You can look at "may" as giving you the option (your choice) or giving you the permission (my choice).
So, using my choice p13 says "you are only allowed to throw the ball after a players move action has been completed during a Pass Action".
Add p8 to this and you have the following. "You are only allowed to throw the ball during a pass action, but if you declare a pass action then you must throw it". (The "must" statement from p8 cancels out any implied option in the "permission" statement on p13.)
Quote: I can find many many situations in the LRB where the word "may" is used to denote an option the coach has, rather than a requirement of the coach.
All that does is what I achieved with my quotation, establish a precedent. In other words you showed that the author has used the word in the fashion that you contend elsewhere in the text. |
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Apedog |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 12, 2004 - 06:03 AM
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Joined: Feb 17, 2003
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Regardless of how the rule is interpreted, which is obviously unclear from all this discussion, I think all of the actions should remain 'may'.
You've used the action for the turn in any case and most of the time it makes no difference. Basically it amounts to Galaks conditional rule above but without the possibility of complex rules lawyering that a wordy rule like this presents. |
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Munkey
Boom! He's on his back!
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Clan_Skaven |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 12, 2004 - 07:33 AM
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Joined: Aug 19, 2003
Niagara Falls ON, Canada
Posts: 2604
Location: Niagara Falls ON, Canada
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There really is no point debating this topic anymore, I see it as no condradiction. So untill officially stated otherwise I'll play it as a Must. Others will still play it as a May. I don't see the value of constant repeating of the same points on either side will prove any use.
Just one Man's Opinion.
Rod |
_________________
"2006 SPIKE Champion!"
"Death-Bowl IV & V, Most Casualties!, Death-Bowl VI Best Team!"
"2008 Dagger Bowl Champion"
Host of the Warpstone Cup, Q'ermitt Bowl & the Hope Bowl
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 12, 2004 - 08:04 AM
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Joined: Oct 24, 2003
Posts: 1671
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Apedog wrote: Regardless of how the rule is interpreted, which is obviously unclear from all this discussion, I think all of the actions should remain 'may'.
How can they all "remain" may if they aren't currently may? Foul is definitely must right now, and pass is both. Don't twist the facts. You want them all to "become" may, not "remain" may. |
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Apedog |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 15, 2004 - 05:41 AM
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Joined: Feb 17, 2003
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Zombie wrote: Apedog wrote: Regardless of how the rule is interpreted, which is obviously unclear from all this discussion, I think all of the actions should remain 'may'.
How can they all "remain" may if they aren't currently may? Foul is definitely must right now, and pass is both. Don't twist the facts. You want them all to "become" may, not "remain" may.
You're picking a fight where there isn't one. I wrote remain because from my point of view thats how it is. Obviously if you don't agree then it should read become.
I think clan-skaven summed it up when he said the two sides of this argument are not going to agree, there's no point keep restating the case.
I'll agree to disagree on what the rules say now and what I think they should say (regardless of interpretation). |
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Munkey
Boom! He's on his back!
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 15, 2004 - 07:11 PM
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Joined: Oct 24, 2003
Posts: 1671
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| As much as everyone disagrees now, one thing that (almost) everyone agrees on is that pass is both must and may as things currently stand. So whichever way it goes in the future, it will be a become and not a remain, even if it goes my way (must). That's all i meant by that. |
_________________
They will slowly add bits of the vault in on each RR leading up to 2007, starting with LRB 4.0, so it will be a slow and agonising death for BB.
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