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GalakStarscraper |
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Post subject:
 Posted: Nov 07, 2004 - 11:23 AM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 1562
Status: Offline
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And with this in mind Ken ... since GenCon is going to 5 games next year.
I'll get rid of 3rd place. Have the top two coaches after 4 games play for 1st and 2nd. And have the overall point winner from the other coaches take a All-Around award.
I'll also move the CAS bonus points to
+10 for 2 more than opponent
+5 of 1 more than opponent
Made a lot of sense after talking to the basher coaches.
Galak |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 07, 2004 - 11:45 AM
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Joined: Oct 24, 2003
Posts: 1671
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I don't like that system at all. In fact, i hate it. The 4th place guy (and maybe even the 5h and 6th place coaches as well) will probably have more points at the end of the tourney then the runner up. It makes no sense to me to give the runner up a prize and not give one to those. If you're gonna use the swiss system, use it all the way. The swiss system isn't meant to have a top table at the end decide between no. 1 and no. 2. It's meant to figure out who did best at the end of the day, giving all rounds the same weight.
Even the number 1 guy at the end of the day isn't necessarily the one who won on table 1 last round. It could be the one who lost (as happened to gken). It could even be someone who wasn't on table one at all. For example, the two guys on table one get a tie and both get passed by the winner on table 2. Or the no. 2 on table 1 gets a tight win and the winner on table 2 gets more bonus points. Or the 2nd coach on table 1 has fewer points before the last round than the 1st coach on table 2, but gets to table one regarless because the other coach has already played the no. 1.
What matters in the end is who got most total points, not who got to table 1 and won, or who got to table 1 and lost. |
_________________
They will slowly add bits of the vault in on each RR leading up to 2007, starting with LRB 4.0, so it will be a slow and agonising death for BB.
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GalakStarscraper |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 07, 2004 - 12:05 PM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 1562
Status: Offline
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Zombie to be honest I'm torn because I agree with you (at least I think I do) .... its an overall system the person where the best overall coach wins the tournament and I like that system.
But then you get guys like GKen who clearly won the Chaos Cup overall on total points as the system worked and comes on and says he shouldn't have won because one guy went 4-0 and he went 3-1. I say the point system is solid. Dean won 45 more points than Ken for that 4th game (win was 55 points / loss 10 points). Ken across his 4 games had 35 more bonus points from CAS and TDs than Dean and outscored Dean by 12 points on sportsmanship with a score 44 to Dean's 32.
So to be honest I'm with you Zombie ... in a 4 game tournament the only fair system for overall best coach is the one the Chaos Cup used (or a variation of it).
One of those things for me to think about. I'll probably go back to my eariler thoughts that I give 1st, 2nd, and 3rd ... and for the player with the most game points I gave an extra prize that doesn't receive a trophy. So that it is recognized.
Galak |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 07, 2004 - 12:45 PM
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Joined: Oct 24, 2003
Posts: 1671
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I thought this was a case of both guys getting one loss, but Ken getting his on the last round. You say Ken lost one more game?
This sounds to me like another case of bonus points being worth too much and actually winning games not being worth enough. Fix that and the guy with the best record should win the tournament. |
_________________
They will slowly add bits of the vault in on each RR leading up to 2007, starting with LRB 4.0, so it will be a slow and agonising death for BB.
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Jonny_P |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 07, 2004 - 12:53 PM
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Joined: Feb 10, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 899
Location: United States of America
Status: Offline
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| Personally I feel that record should always be used to determine victor, and only in the case of ties you can then look to sportsmanship, td, casualty, and painting points. This one was real close and I believe it was only 6 points difference. Sportsmanship points are very hard to use because they can be unintentionally biased. |
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Hoshi_Komi |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 07, 2004 - 02:22 PM
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Joined: Nov 23, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 550
Location: United States of America
Status: Offline
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I agree with the records and thats why I said your brother deserves the Cup. As for Sportsmanship points, these are the best sportsmanship rules I've seen in a tournament....ie just ranking your games 1-4. I gave your brother the #2 slot for sportsmanship...so he didn't lose pts because of me  I just found it odd that I ended up with so many sportsmanship pts..(tied for first (45 out of 52)) ..that's what threw the whole formula off. |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 07, 2004 - 04:21 PM
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Joined: Feb 10, 2003
Undisclosed
Posts: 2696
Location: Undisclosed
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Personally (and this is from someone who isn't ever going to bother the Tourney winners list), I feel if you know what the scoring system is in advance, you've no call to complain about it afterwards (and I'm not pointing a finger at anyone, especially Ken, who's "alright2  ).
Sure, suggest ways to improve it, but saying "that sucks" post-tourney sounds like sour grapes imo (and I realise Zombie didn't compete). |
_________________
_____ and rankings - that is all
#27 of the "24 club" (due to some dodgy accounting)
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 07, 2004 - 04:22 PM
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Joined: Feb 10, 2003
Undisclosed
Posts: 2696
Location: Undisclosed
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| And I think the servers time has gone screwy again, as the 2 posts below mine were posted before mine (11.22PM GMT). |
_________________
_____ and rankings - that is all
#27 of the "24 club" (due to some dodgy accounting)
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GalakStarscraper |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 07, 2004 - 06:00 PM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 1562
Status: Offline
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Actually they are not.
The bonus points are actually less than was used last year for tournaments like Underworld (including this year's Underworld), Origins, and the GenCon Bowl.
A win was 55 points
A tie was 35 points
A loss was 10 points
Winning by 2+ TDs was a 10 point bonus
Having more CAS was a 10 point bonus
Having the same number of CAS was a 5 point bonus
Sportsmanship had a max of 52 and a minimum of 12.
Painting was max of 15 and minimum of 0.
So the math becomes:
Points up for grabs from games: 180
Points up for grabs from bonus: 80
Points up for grabs from sportsmanship: 40
Points up for grabs from painting: 15
The breakdown of Gken and Dean:
Gken
Games: 175
Bonus: 55
Sports: 45
Painting: 15
Tota:
Dean
Games: 220
Bonus: 20
Sports: 32
Painting: 12
=========================================
So we can go 'round and 'round on this ... and I realize that Dean is not contesting the outcome, but that's a pretty solid method of scoring a 4 game tournament. A tie is always worth more than a loss and a win is always worth more than a tie.
Ken was 45 points behind based on games played ... that's a lot of ground to have to cover with bonus points and he had scored a great deal of them but it really came down to sportsmanship ... and that's something folks will never agree on. You are either of the camp that its as important as winning or that its not important at all for determining who wins. I fall in the camp of as important as winning. I fully understand that some folks will not agree at all that sportsmanship should matter.
Galak |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 07, 2004 - 06:36 PM
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Joined: Oct 24, 2003
Posts: 1671
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| Galak, even if it's less than before, that's still too many bonus points, as can clearly be seen by the final result. I agree with jpeletis, in that people should only be ranked by their records, with TDs, CAS and sportsmanship used only as tie breakers. |
_________________
They will slowly add bits of the vault in on each RR leading up to 2007, starting with LRB 4.0, so it will be a slow and agonising death for BB.
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 07, 2004 - 08:17 PM
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Joined: Oct 24, 2003
Posts: 1671
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| And you're right Darkson, the server did have a weird glitch. The two posts marked 10:58 pm and 10:59 pm below (Eastern time) were indeed posted before yours, Galak's and mine. |
_________________
They will slowly add bits of the vault in on each RR leading up to 2007, starting with LRB 4.0, so it will be a slow and agonising death for BB.
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Jonny_P |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 07, 2004 - 08:58 PM
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Joined: Feb 10, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 899
Location: United States of America
Status: Offline
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No, it's totally cool Ken, in fact, later on Dean told me he felt bad because people were talking about him being 4-0 and he didn't want people to think he was complaining, because he wasn't. It was just soemthing some people noticed and started talking on their own about it. Not sure, but I think he ranked you 1 or 2 in sportsmanship as well. I know he just signed up to NAF so he should be posting soon. Great time though and I hope to make it to the next NAF event.
Jon |
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Grumbledook |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 07, 2004 - 08:59 PM
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Joined: Feb 10, 2003
Posts: 922
Status: Offline
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if the wins were given more worth it wouldn't have happened
the extra points should be used to tie those off on the same points
i was talking with some guys at the spiky club about this and woody suggested then that adding 5 points more on the win draw and lost would give more emphasis on the record than the extra stuff
this is the first tournament though that this has happened guess the bonus points were a larger preportion of the game points, which was skewed even more with their only being 4 games |
_________________
'Boomshanker an Interception'
Jon
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avatar666 |
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Post subject: Chaos Cup (sorry for the long post)
Posted: Nov 07, 2004 - 09:55 PM
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Joined: Nov 07, 2004
Carol Stream
Posts: 38
Location: Carol Stream
Status: Offline
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WOW, WHAT A DAY!! I am new to the NAF (this is my first post), but playing at the Chaos Cup yesterday was awesome. Ken, was that a wild and crazy final game, or what?!?!!! UNREAL! Yeah, I did had some pretty good luck during the end of the second half, but I always tried to position my players so that if they did fail, that they or another player could be in some kind of position to try and counter next turn. I don???t think my Skaven has ever been that beat up as quickly and consistently in a game before. Your dirty player did get busted (and you as an arguing coach as well???.), but not until he committed some fouls before hand. I???m just glad his luck ran out when it did. I think the Dwarf Referee finally took his head out of his stein! I had the incredible luck in my first two games of getting two players thrown out for fouling, and I think I only attempted it 3 times in those games.
I am new to tournaments as well (I played in a mini one about a half year ago or so, but it was not half as organized as this one ??? kudos Joe & Tom), so I really do not have that much input on how the system rated compared to others and how (if any) it could be improved. I would agree with some of the past few posts that the ???sportsmanship??? factor could be flawed. No disrespect for the other three coaches and games I played what so ever ??? they all were excellent games and great guys to play against, but I gave Ken the highest rating (worth 13points). I gave this to him, because he was just that ??? a great sportsman. There was a play where I dodged a guy out and then I remembered I was going to blitz with him, but I didn???t declare it. Ken said, ???go ahead a blitz if that is what you were going to do, that???s no big deal???. I thanked him, but I didn???t make it a blitz because I thought about it ??? and was like This is the Chaos Cup Tournament and if I do something as stupid and fundamental as forget to declare a blitz before moving I shouldn???t do it even if my opponent says that I could. That was very admirable of him and totally blew me away. That stuck out in my head when I did the sportsmanship rating. Where I was saying that the ???sportsmanship factor??? could be abused is by a player (such as in the final) could give his opponent the worst rating just to try and give himself the best chance of winning ??? without regard to how great of sportsman the opponent actually was. I do not think anybody playing there Saturday would do that (and I???d like to believe that nobody would do that) ??? but the fact remains that it could be done. Case in point, had I went with this theory, I could have given Ken a 4th place sportsmanship ranking giving him 3 points instead of 13 ??? and vise versa he could have given me the same. That???s just a bug see in that part of this type of tournament. Enough on that subject, I was just throwing in my two cents.
Sorry for the long post (I???m trying to make up for being a new guy on the NAF site).
Once again - Ken, Ethan, Bryan, & Jim: I had a great time playing you guys in the games and hope to have the chance to play you guys again some time in the future. Tom & Joe: Great job of handling the event and I look forward to competing in it again next year.  |
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Xtreme |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 08, 2004 - 01:03 AM
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Da Boss
Joined: Mar 12, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 1096
Location: United States of America
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It was great getting a chance to play you Dean.
Still can't beleive I got Best Painted, there were some really nice teams there that I think were better then mine. |
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