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SBG |
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Post subject:
 Posted: Dec 21, 2004 - 06:37 PM
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Joined: Feb 15, 2003
Canada
Posts: 774
Location: Canada
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Galak replied earlier:
"Big Guys were never meant to be staple players on BB teams. They were supposed to be very strong players that you have a tough time deciding whether to take or not. The lastest Review finally got them to the point that was the desired goal in the first place. You BikerBob may now seriously question whether to take one or not ... but others are not. IE they've finally reached the point where they are not an automatic purchase for every team. I think you'll find a lot of teams still taking Rat Ogres as well ... just maybe not you. Again this was the desired goal and effect. As for who will buy the thing (ie Rat Ogre) ... a lot of coaches I've seen still are buying them ... so the best answer I can give you is many coach obviously not including yourself. Again ... that was the goal ... thought out decision vs automatic."
I'm repeating myself: no offense Galak, but I think the BBRC transformed the Big Guys in lame, uninteresting players. And I'm still wondering why you (meaning, the BBRC; I'm not going personal here!) did so, with all the new Big Guy minis that went out last year. I think that at some point, the ruling aspect of the game and the marketing aspect should reach each other. Sounds a bit like shooting oneself in the foot (is that a correct English expression?? Loll We say that in French though!)
Instead of doing this, I would have made sure that every roster had access to a suitable Big Guys, preventing those teams to be unbalanced. Maybe having only some of the Big Guys or some of the teams with their BG not having access to general skills would have been better. TO me, it would have been.
Fred |
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Forget the Yankees, forget the Habs: THAT'S a Dynasty!!!
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GalakStarscraper |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 21, 2004 - 09:42 PM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
United States of America
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Fred ... we're screwed either way with the logic you just presented. Either Big Guys are balanced to the point where they are not a must have or if I follow your logic we should make them good to sell miniatures. Sorry ... speaking solely for myself ... I'm not hear to make rules EVER to sell miniatures as my concern. If forced to work on a rule because a miniature exists ... I might do so because its required ... but I'm not going to not take a good step for the game because it might mean a miniature will sell less.
Some folks think BGs are boring now .... I think they finally became a good fit for the game and fortunately ... I've seen more folks agree with that opinion than disagree ... and yeah Zombie I already know you aren't one of them so you can spare me the comment about how you aren't one of them.
Galak |
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SBG |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 22, 2004 - 06:19 AM
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Joined: Feb 15, 2003
Canada
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Thanks for replying Galak,
I agree that you shouldn't have to make rules for selling mini. Unfortunately, GW is not here to entertain us, but to make sure it's owners (and shareholders, I think) make some money at the end of the financial year.
So, I do agree and I would really like that the rules are completely apart from the mercantile aspect of the game, but bottom line, they're here for the money, not for the good pleasure of the gamers.
Now, that I like the rules or not, it's my problem, I agree with that too. The feeling I have around me is that I'm not alone. It's still OUR problem, but what I'M telling you is that if it becomes the general feeling, and that sales are plummeting, I think you'll get an incentive from GW to make it a bit more appealling, don't you think? I think so. And I think the best proof are the minis for the Vampire and Ogre teams, the ones that came out before they were official teams...
Fred |
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Winner of Soup Bowls I, II, III (Chaos Dwarves); IV, V (Dwarves); XIII (Orcs); XIV (Dark Elves) & XVII (Chaos).
Forget the Yankees, forget the Habs: THAT'S a Dynasty!!!
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Indigo |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 22, 2004 - 10:03 AM
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Da Warboss
Joined: Feb 12, 2003
England
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I fail to understand how making Big Guys less of an automatic choice is a decision motivated by sales? Surely making them BETTER would have been a clear sign that all GW wanted is sales.
SBG - I don't know why you think Big Guys are so dull now? Sure, they are trickier to develop (as befits a pea-brained hulk of muscle IMO) but IT IS STILL POSSIBLE. They still have their basic stats, i.e. high ST, all they have lost is the sure fire route to make them unstoppable blockers and must-have items on a team. Rat Ogres in particular were in a HUGE need to be toned down after having faced several of them in tournaments and seen what they can do.
Try to consider the implications outside your own closed league  |
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Spazzfist |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 22, 2004 - 10:38 AM
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Joined: Aug 16, 2004
Canada
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I agree with Indigo.
The Big Guys are still very impressive players for any team - just their ST5 alone is enough to make them worth having. Just because they no longer have normal access to general skills doesn't make them useless, it will just force people to change the way that they develop them.
Personally, I am all for it and welcome the change - having faced a developed ogre team and seen too many big guys with block and tackle in league play - I say that they were due for some toning down!
Spazz |
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KarlLagerbottom |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 22, 2004 - 02:44 PM
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Ahh...but here is were Zombie's argument will kick in. He is of the belief that the Big Guy's were toned down to fix the Ogre team.
Hearing/reading Galak's reasoning for why the BG's were toned down...it sounds like a good thing. Big Guy's seem to be a "Must Have" on everyone's list and limited variety on the rosters that you would face.
However, it may have gone to the far extreme where Big Guys might actually be a rarity.
STR 5 guys might be able to get the occassional 3D Block, but for a team like Orcs...aren't you better off with the Black Orcs 2D Block with a re-roll and possibly Block skill?
Sure it's nice having that STR 5/Guard Troll in the middle of the line, but is it worth the extra cash when you could have a Blitzer instead? I realize that is exactly the point...a choice has to be made, but other than for fun-factor...the choice is really an easy one for most rosters.
Anyway...my thoughts. -Rob |
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Doubleskulls |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 22, 2004 - 03:13 PM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Mar 05, 2003
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Something that came up on the GW forums was making Big Guys (Loner) skill mean that a TRR fails unless you make a 4+. So you've got a 50/50 chance of wasting the RR.
This would be interesting on an Ogre team - and I reckon would make little difference to normal BGs. |
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NAF Racial Results
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Bikerbob |
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Post subject: Question?
Posted: Jan 03, 2005 - 10:09 AM
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I am one of the people that thinks that Big Guys should be special, kickbutt players that have some drawbacks.. and I have found that out many times with my wild animal on my RO that I have played.
The question becomes, if you can play a Ogre Team... why not a RO team or Minator or Troll team if you really wanted too... what is the difference?
THe difference is that GW released a series of different Ogre figures.. so lets not kid ourselves here.
I still think if you wanted to do Ogres then make the ones that are taken as BIG guys special.. and make the team of Ogres a little watered down.
If you wanted to make the choice more difficult for starting teams to take Big Guys then increase the cost, make the game more fun.. dont water it down.
Indigo, I would love to hear your experiences with Rat Ogres that makes them SOOOO good. In fact I would love to hear stories why anyone thinks a RO is sooo good. The 3 AG was in fact for me a Skaven player the only reason I would spend the money on them.. Gutterrunners are a lot more scary to almost any team then a RO.
Anyway..
James |
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Sputnik |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 04, 2005 - 01:36 AM
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Quote: Indigo, I would love to hear your experiences with Rat Ogres that makes them SOOOO good. In fact I would love to hear stories why anyone thinks a RO is sooo good. The 3 AG was in fact for me a Skaven player the only reason I would spend the money on them.. Gutterrunners are a lot more scary to almost any team then a RO.
Did I get this correctly? You only took a RO because of AG3?
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Bikerbob |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 04, 2005 - 05:58 AM
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In a Tournament Sputnik, you spend 130 on the RO, thats an extra LR and a RR or a 3rd Gutterrunner if you are playing Stormvermin.
The RO has no block, has AV 8 and is a Wild animal (No tackle zone 50/50 it does anything) 50/50 on a AV 8 is not good odds with no block... you work out the math.. this thing can get injured or killed pretty easy.. you put its ass on the ground.. which is not hard.. and then foul it off the field... which again.. is not that hard. Between the turns it is stunned on the field or Roaring around doing nothing.. because once its ass is on the field everyone moves out of its TZ and you are back to the 50/50 roll again.
Having the AG 3 so that it could dodge out of a TZ to blitz was a threat.. no longer would just putting a TZ on the BG insure that it was stuck there... that ability to dodge and its movement.. made it a real threat around the field.. without the AG3... its a weak 130gp ogre.. not worth the hassle.
This has been my experiences with it.
James |
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"Beats a Kick in the Head"
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TuernRedvenom |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 04, 2005 - 07:54 AM
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Bikerbob wrote: In a Tournament Sputnik, you spend 130 on the RO, thats an extra LR and a RR or a 3rd Gutterrunner if you are playing Stormvermin.
You play with less than 3 GR's in a tourney???
I think this is good: lets you think more about how to spend your money. Without a RO you'll still have a tough time breaking through cages anyway for example.
Quote: The RO has no block, has AV 8 and is a Wild animal (No tackle zone 50/50 it does anything) 50/50 on a AV 8 is not good odds with no block... you work out the math.. this thing can get injured or killed pretty easy.. you put its *censored* on the ground.. which is not hard.. and then foul it off the field... which again.. is not that hard.
You leave your rat ogre running around alone??? If there's no TZ on him you can use him to blitz. If your opponent is that obsessed with your rat ogre that's great anyway, he'll probably need lots of guys to bring it down which creates breathing room for the rest of the team. Besides you don't have to make a WA roll if you don't want to. The RO can just stand there as a STR 5 tackle zone with prehensive tail: which is often enough.
Quote: Between the turns it is stunned on the field or Roaring around doing nothing.. because once its *censored* is on the field everyone moves out of its TZ and you are back to the 50/50 roll again.
Blitz with it, give it tentacles on a doubles,...
Quote: Having the AG 3 so that it could dodge out of a TZ to blitz was a threat.. no longer would just putting a TZ on the BG insure that it was stuck there... that ability to dodge and its movement.. made it a real threat around the field.. without the AG3... its a weak 130gp ogre.. not worth the hassle.
First you say it's too easy to get away from it (even tough it has prehensive tail), now you say it's bad when people are standing next to it???
A RO is still a very valuable asset to a skaven team, but it's no longer the superman it used to be.
The Rat Ogre was too good IMO, and they fixed it. |
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Spazzfist |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 04, 2005 - 08:21 AM
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TuernRedvenom wrote: The Rat Ogre was too good IMO, and they fixed it.
Agreed! 
They are vicious brutes on their own - why did they need a better agility than any other BG? |
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Bikerbob |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 04, 2005 - 10:45 AM
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Well I have played Rat Ogres and I have played against them..
I have yet to see one make a bit of difference in a match... EXCEPT if the owning player focuses too much on them, neglecting the positioning of the rest of the team.
Actually, TuernRedvenom I have played in Tourney's with only 2 GR and in Spike this year was 1 TD away from finishing in the top 3, but I did play with a Rat Ogre and it did have BLOCK and the AG 3 did come in handy because it actually scored a TD for me.
Skaven are fast, and should be played as such. But in Tournament play you are facing for the most part VERY BASHY teams. Without Block on my RO I would have lost it just about every game... vs Norse, Chaos Dwarves, Orcs, more Chaos Dwarfs.. did I mention Chaos Dwarves?????
Anyway.. My point is... and will continue to be.. DONT wash down the game. IF you find Big Guys in general are good then make them more expensive. IF you made that RO 150 instead of 130 that would be a HUGE choice for me.. either as a starting player on a League team or in a Tournament. But 20k more in an ongoing league is not huge, but enough that you might have to save for 3 or 4 matchs to buy him.
Not to mention a BIG GUY without the ability to get BLOCK???? That just sounds stupid.. why should a little human have the ability not get knocked over when a monster 10 times his weight etc..etc..etc.. cant??
This is not just a collection of various rules slapped together.. its supposed to make "Game" sense as well.
James |
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"Beats a Kick in the Head"
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Spazzfist |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 04, 2005 - 11:53 AM
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Bikerbob wrote: Not to mention a BIG GUY without the ability to get BLOCK???? That just sounds stupid.. why should a little human have the ability not get knocked over when a monster 10 times his weight etc..etc..etc.. cant??
This is not just a collection of various rules slapped together.. its supposed to make "Game" sense as well.
But I guess it does depending on how you look at it.
To me the block skill represents the player's ability to make a more informed attack or defense. To do so would require training and a certain measure of intelligence (learning potential). Big guys lack the desire to be trained and the intelligence to learn.
I kind of think of this as "kung fu" in a way. What would have put you on yer butt before now you are able to avoid through as deft flip or side step. you are more effective in attack and defense. To my mind a big guy is too big and too wild to learn kung fu.
But in league play you can still get it for a BG if your roll doubles - and for some tournaments you are allowed to get "doubles" rolls. So the option for block is not totally gone.....
Spazz |
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Clan_Skaven |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 04, 2005 - 02:11 PM
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Joined: Aug 19, 2003
Niagara Falls ON, Canada
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Spazzfist wrote: TuernRedvenom wrote: The Rat Ogre was too good IMO, and they fixed it.
Agreed!
They are vicious brutes on their own - why did they need a better agility than any other BG?
Mine was not vicious at the Death Bowl vs. your Gobbo! 
Even though they are part Ogre they are also part Rat, so possibly a distant cuz to a Gutter Runner! Hey I know my Rat Ogre was a Gutter Runner in his heart. (3 receptions & 2 TD's at the SPIKE, & 1 TD with 1 reception at the Death Bowl)
So I can see why the AG was lowered, it was to stop coaches like me to use the Rat Ogre like a want-to be Running Back or as I like to say an over grown Gutter Runner! 
Rod. |
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