| Author |
Message |
smeborg |
|
Post subject: Proposed change to Dauntless
 Posted: Mar 06, 2005 - 04:34 PM
|
|
Joined: Feb 16, 2003
Posts: 223
Status: Offline
|
|
First, the Proposal:
"Change the third sentence onwards of the Dauntless description to read:
When the skill is used, the coach of the Dauntless player rolls one die and adds the number rolled to the Dauntless player's Strength. If the resulting total is greater than the opponent's Strength, then the Dauntless player's Strength is counted as being equal to his opponent's when he makes the block, before any bonuses for skills and defensive or offensive assists are added. If the resulting total is less than or equal to the opponent's Strength, then the Dauntless player must use his normal Strength for the block."
Now the Background:
I like the Dauntless skill/trait, but I have been mildly disturbed by its mechanics since I first read 3rd Ed. That you have to roll 2 dice against ST is a bit of a giveaway that something might be wonky. All of us (Skaven coaches excepted) are prone to waking up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat dreaming about Gutter Runners with the dreaded Dauntless/Horns combo. Skaven coaches wake up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat anyway, but that's because the effect of the warpstone they took with their cup of warm milk before going to bed has worn off.
Leaving to one side the rather convincing argument that the best Gutter Runner is a dead Gutter Runner, Dauntless is currently most attractive on weaker (e.g. ST2) players, enabling them to take on Big Guys and the like with relative ease. Well, perhaps it should work well for ST2 players against ST3 players, but there seems to be better balance if the success of the skill/trait is related to ST difference, rather than just to the target's ST. Taking on a Mummy or a Treeman with the Dauntless/Horns Gutter Runner would still be possible, but it would be more of a "death or glory" ploy (which seems fitting).
The proposed change(s) in the Vault which would make Dauntless a skill, and therefore more widely available, prompted me to start thinking. Not only will Beastmen consider taking Dauntless early in their development (because it combines so well with Horns), but the little darlings ('Flings, Gobbos, Skinks) will surely take Dauntless on their first doubles roll. I don't have a problem with Dauntless becoming a normal skill (although I would argue strongly that it should fall into the Stength, rather than the General, category). But I don't want ST to be almost completely devalued. (The proposed change is valid for the LRB as well as for the Vault.)
I've posted this suggestion here, because I find the NAF forum kinder towards new suggestions, and in the pious hope that at least 2 of the BBRC might read it.
Hope this helps.
Cheers
Smeborg |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
 |
|
Doubleskulls |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Mar 06, 2005 - 07:30 PM
|
|
Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Mar 05, 2003
Undisclosed
Posts: 2627
Location: Kent, UK
Status: Offline
|
|
| I suggested exactly the same thing a while ago. Needless to say it didn't make it into PBBL. |
_________________
Ian 'Double Skulls' Williams
SLOBB
NAF Racial Results
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Colin |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Mar 06, 2005 - 07:51 PM
|
|
Joined: Feb 10, 2003
Posts: 698
Status: Offline
|
|
| The only problem I have with this is that a player using this skill will always succeed in using it when blocking an opponant who has 1 ST point higher, this skill should never be automatic at any time. |
_________________
"I'm not dumb, but I don't understand
How she dodge like a woman but block like a man
Here name is Zara, Z-A-R-A, Zara"
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
smeborg |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Mar 06, 2005 - 08:11 PM
|
|
Joined: Feb 16, 2003
Posts: 223
Status: Offline
|
|
Torg - I think it will always fail on a 1 (you have to beat, not just equal, the opponent's ST).
Ian - thanks. It has occurred to me since making the original post that the proposed change would help bring the dreaded Dauntless/Horns combo under control, if you also ruled that you apply Horns before calculating ST for the Dauntless roll. The skill combination would then still have some value.
Cheers
Smeborg |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Xeterog |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Mar 06, 2005 - 11:04 PM
|
|
Joined: Jan 11, 2004
Texas
Posts: 73
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
|
|
In the vault tho, you can't combine Dauntless with horns...so the dauntless/horns combo has been taken care of already.
Let the GR's have their Dauntless..doesn't bother me one bit..means they will be close by next turn to hit (usually). |
_________________
-Xeterog
(formerly Gortex)
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Colin |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Mar 06, 2005 - 11:31 PM
|
|
Joined: Feb 10, 2003
Posts: 698
Status: Offline
|
|
OK, obviously I misread it.
I would just like to add one thing, though it may be just a little off topic, the problems that have been occurring with skill combos being too powerfull and then having either the skills toned down or being less accessable (ie, why the whole traits thing was introduced), just shows that there is a fundimental weakness with the way the skills were handled in 3ed (and thus by extention, what we have now, as everythning that has come afterward has just been a variant of 3ed). I think that if skills were grouped according to position, like in 2ed, this problem could be avoided. Instead of generalised categories that have skills exclusive only to that category, skills listed according to position could be tailoed to suit each poositional developement and have skills that can be found in other lists not just exclusive skills. As long as each list had at least ten skills to choose from, there would be variety to how you could develope each position on different teams, all blitzers wouldn't turn out looking the same. For example, both lineman and blitzers could have block on their lists, but blitzers having mighty blow, and linemen having guard, catchers get dodge but not block whereas dodge could alos be on a blitzer's list as well. Leader could only be on thrower and blitzer lists. (Let's face it, the passing skills might as well be called thrower skills as no one else can get them normally) Of course doubles would allow you to pick a skill not normally in your position's list. Big Guys and stunties would have to have their own lists, though, but that would make it so that all BGs don't have to start with TTM or MB (they would be skills available to them on their list so could be chosen normally).
Sorry for going off topic and going on so long, but I think that when 3ed streamlined and simplified things, it caused some problems. Anyway I realise that JJ's not going to go back to anything from a previous edition, he seems to be set on any new edition becoming version 3.5. |
_________________
"I'm not dumb, but I don't understand
How she dodge like a woman but block like a man
Here name is Zara, Z-A-R-A, Zara"
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Emberbreeze |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Mar 07, 2005 - 04:17 AM
|
|
Joined: Feb 19, 2004
Posts: 323
Status: Offline
|
|
I like this change, seems logical.
I also don't really have a problem with this and horns being applied afterwards. it is 2 skills which you will have to combine with block to make it really useful. It isn't an automatic 2 die block, and you could end up having to make a 1 die block or worse if it fails. |
_________________
Hag Graef Dragons Tournament Record 22:9:14 NAF Record 18:7:11
Silvania Suckers Tournament Record 8:2:11 NAF Record 5:2:11
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Spazzfist |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Mar 07, 2005 - 06:03 AM
|
|
Joined: Aug 16, 2004
Canada
Posts: 3956
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
|
|
I can understand your point on this, but think that you have to look at it from a bigger picture.
First off, in order to get the dauntless/horns combo a gutter runner will have to get enought SPPs to get those skills (not too much of a problem for a GR).
Secondly, he will have to get doubles to get the horns on one of those rolls. Again, not impossible, but not as easy.
Finally, I do not know of many skaven coaches who would kit out their GR in this way to be honest. If the first roll is a non-doubles, then I think most would go for block - for the nasty "blodge" GR. (Argh!) If it is a doubles, then I would think that they would prefer Very Long Legs over horns, because with their next skill they can get sprint and then have a one turn touchdown machine.
As for other races, none could get horns, so let 'em have their dauntless. I think the 'flings and gobbos would like a Block skill better than dauntless though on their first doubles! I know I would!
As I said, I see your point, but think the threat is exaggerated. |
_________________
#1 Nurgle coach in Canada (formerly the world!)
#1 Snotling coach in Canada
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Apedog |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Mar 07, 2005 - 12:58 PM
|
|
Joined: Feb 17, 2003
Posts: 146
Status: Offline
|
|
I quite like this change as well, Dauntless has become comparatively more powerful since 3rd edition anyway as many of the Big Guys it was used against are ST 5 rather than the 6 the stars had.
Torg, I quite like your idea too, but to clarify are you suggesting a skill list for each position of each team or are you suggesting fitting all the players into one of several templates? After all Blitzers are fairly easy but Elf Blitzers are different to Human Blitzers, as are the Linemen; before we even get to things like Ghouls, or Vampires or Stunties. |
_________________
Munkey
Boom! He's on his back!
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
TuernRedvenom |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Mar 07, 2005 - 01:15 PM
|
|
Joined: Dec 28, 2003
Posts: 142
Status: Offline
|
|
| I also like the idea, but it would make high str players a fair bit more powerfull, especially for teams that can have more of them like orcs, lizzies, ogres and khemri. For a dauntlessing S3 blitzer to to get a 1-die (assuming no assists) block on a STR 4 player is only a 66% chance (which isn't that great when eg doing a blitz IMHO). Maybe it should be done so that you only have to equal opposing player's strength and 1 always fails, 6 always succeeds. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Doubleskulls |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Mar 07, 2005 - 03:21 PM
|
|
Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Mar 05, 2003
Undisclosed
Posts: 2627
Location: Kent, UK
Status: Offline
|
|
I really like the idea for two reasons
1) It made dauntless less appealing on S2 players - because the chance of failure is much higher (ATM vs S3 you fail 1/12 - this would make it 1/6)
2) It makes Dauntless worthwhile on most players who aren't S5 or S6. With this version a BOB with Dauntless (or Prince Moron) can take on Big Guys more reliably than at the moment - and more reliably than a Snotling. |
_________________
Ian 'Double Skulls' Williams
SLOBB
NAF Racial Results
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Emberbreeze |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Mar 07, 2005 - 04:11 PM
|
|
Joined: Feb 19, 2004
Posts: 323
Status: Offline
|
|
TuernRedvenom wrote: I also like the idea, but it would make high str players a fair bit more powerfull, especially for teams that can have more of them like orcs, lizzies, ogres and khemri. For a dauntlessing S3 blitzer to to get a 1-die (assuming no assists) block on a STR 4 player is only a 66% chance (which isn't that great when eg doing a blitz IMHO). Maybe it should be done so that you only have to equal opposing player's strength and 1 always fails, 6 always succeeds.
I don't get this. as I understand it the proposal is
D6 + STR > Op STR
so STR 3 V's STR 4 only needs a 2+ to get a 1 die block. which is a 83% chance of success not 66%
I think this is good odds. where as a STR 2 player would need a 3+, which makes it slightly more risky and something you wouldn't want to try without a reroll in most situations.
and most ST3 dautless players are only going to block that big guy with a reroll and at least one team mate to back him up (or horns).
Sounds perfect to me. |
_________________
Hag Graef Dragons Tournament Record 22:9:14 NAF Record 18:7:11
Silvania Suckers Tournament Record 8:2:11 NAF Record 5:2:11
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
TuernRedvenom |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Mar 08, 2005 - 12:10 AM
|
|
Joined: Dec 28, 2003
Posts: 142
Status: Offline
|
|
Emberbreeze wrote: TuernRedvenom wrote: I also like the idea, but it would make high str players a fair bit more powerfull, especially for teams that can have more of them like orcs, lizzies, ogres and khemri. For a dauntlessing S3 blitzer to to get a 1-die (assuming no assists) block on a STR 4 player is only a 66% chance (which isn't that great when eg doing a blitz IMHO). Maybe it should be done so that you only have to equal opposing player's strength and 1 always fails, 6 always succeeds.
I don't get this. as I understand it the proposal is
D6 + STR > Op STR
so STR 3 V's STR 4 only needs a 2+ to get a 1 die block. which is a 83% chance of success not 66%
I think this is good odds. where as a STR 2 player would need a 3+, which makes it slightly more risky and something you wouldn't want to try without a reroll in most situations.
and most ST3 dautless players are only going to block that big guy with a reroll and at least one team mate to back him up (or horns).
Sounds perfect to me.
You're right of course. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Thadrin |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Mar 08, 2005 - 12:43 PM
|
|
Joined: Feb 10, 2003
Sweden
Posts: 353
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
|
|
| Have used it before (this was, once upon a time, a house rule in my league), would use it again. |
_________________
Thadrin
Jag är inte svensk, men jag här bott här ett tag nu.
Member nr. 219
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Hoshi_Komi |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Mar 08, 2005 - 01:05 PM
|
|
Joined: Nov 23, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 550
Location: United States of America
Status: Offline
|
|
easiest solution: st3 minimum required for Dauntless---I also think u could make it a regular skill if this was done.
precedence: mighty blow.
Dauntless is only really broken when combined with high movement: ie, wood elf catchers and skaven gutter runners. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
