Well, in a "perfectly balanced" world every team has a 1 in 2 chance of winning any match. So having teams that generally win half as many games as Tier 1 teams seems reasonable to me.

I may play vampires next season, because I think it will be funny. I don't expect to win every game. I don't expect to win ANY game. I think it will be funny. And that's cool.

I really don't get the insistence that flings/gobbos whatever have to be as good as Orcs. All the background of the game is that they are rubbish and consistently lose. If you really embrace the 'fling fluff then you ought to expect for your whole team to die every game. In some bizarre way you ought to want your whole team to die, just as much as a Chaos team wants to kill the opposition. That's not to say you shouldn't be trying to win - just that you should expect defeat.

There seems to be no real reason to play a team when the only asset is made null and void. Shrug.

I really don't get the insistence that flings/gobbos whatever have to be as good as Orcs. All the background of the game is that they are rubbish and consistently lose. If you really embrace the 'fling fluff then you ought to expect for your whole team to die every game. In some bizarre way you ought to want your whole team to die, just as much as a Chaos team wants to kill the opposition. That's not to say you shouldn't be trying to win - just that you should expect defeat.

Fluff has no bearing on rules. Fluff is fluff, rules are rules

You've sprinkled the undead far and wide here, I dont see it as a problem.

Well, its the fluff that has made the various undead teams that you don't have a problem with. I mean, we might as well have varient Skaven teams with all their different clans, or go back to the days of Brettonian and Imperial teams. Maybe bring back Savage Orcs and stuff.

some teams just aren't ment to win. Yea, you'll win a few games, but if Halflings or Goblins win your league, then theres something wrong with the rest of the players in my opionion. We had a goblin team in the TBBF and he was doing pretty good, until my Orcs played him and killed 4 goblins and injured 4 others. That kinda stuff will happen to the teams eventually and then you're done.

I'm not sure what your league is like, but in ours, you can play multiple teams. So, why not play a team like this for fun.

One added note now that I have read the thread...

I am guessing that someone on the BBRC plays Khemri. Does anyone reaylly think that AG2 balances out four STR5 Players with General Access?

Why is it that the Ogre's are broken to the point that they can only have STR1 complementary players and that Mummies are A-OK? Is it Fluff? Is it because that are a jokety-joke team that is supposed to only win 25% of the time?

Please...someone direct me to the Khemri fluff that says they are supposed to be so competitive.

-Rob

P.S. The statement that the Gobbos are off of the Ogre team because ther already is a Goblin team should be brought to the attention to the person who keeps inventing Undead teams. I mean seriously how many of these variants do we need. I actually like them, but if that is being used as a justification to nerf the Ogre's further than let's please at least be consistant.

Our league allows one and only one team to be played. Now you see why I'd be a bit put off by the "lose 3 out of 4" games.

I'm just asking here, not geting on your case.

Accepting the fact that in a perfectly balanced rules set, any team should expect to lose 1 in 2 games, what level would you like to see the Tier 2 teams at?

Personally, I've no problem with expecting to lose 3 in 4 games with the lower teams - I play them for laughs/the challenge repectively, but I am interested in what you'd see as a "fair" level.

I'll just say this:

If you don't like the way the Vault/PBBL rules are heading, do what I'm doing and ignore them. Apart from the playtesting I've promised Galak (if he can ever get the time to finish the 2.6 tool version - poor sod!) and attending tourneys that use it (probably the majority) I won't be playing it. We're not going to use it at our club, and if I ever manage to get my tourney organized, it will be under LRB 4.0 rules, regardless of what the official rules are. There will be enough people out there that will either still play or know the old rules to be able to find some games. And if you're a league commish, it's even easier to dismiss them.

Please dont bring fluff in, or otherwise when you play marines I have to insist you only set up 10 marines. Fluff has no bearing on rules. Fluff is fluff, rules are rules.