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Khaine |
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Post subject:
 Posted: Oct 02, 2005 - 09:55 AM
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Joined: Sep 06, 2003
Posts: 193
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KarlLagerbottom wrote: Khaine wrote: There seems to be no real reason to play a team when the only asset is made null and void. Shrug.
General Skill access is the Khemri teams only asset? How about four STR5 blayers...blitzers and throwers. So they are AG2...the Throwers have Sure Hands to start...unlike Wood Elf throwers who certainly have "Surer Hands" than s a skeleton. And the Khemri Blitzers have STR Skill Access...unlike Wights, DE Blitzers, HE Blitzers, and Wardancers.
Seriously...why is the Khemri team beyond reproach?
-Rob
P.S. And Khaime...I know exactly how you feel in terms of buying a team and having the rulkes changed right out from under you. My 17 Ogres will attest to that. (And 18 or so Goblins...if you can trust what they say.  )
I don't think the khemri team is beyond reproach. I do believe that every with 4 str 5 players that do not have access to skills like block etc, they are going to be less of a force then they were intended to be. As for having blitz-ra's and thro-ra's, agil 2 throwers are well useless with their current movement, and the blitz-ra's well they are decent for the cash so I can't say anything really negative about them. I hardly ever take thro-ra's myself but that is just a personal preference. I feel they are not that much better then a standard skeleton and I can't justify paying 40k for access to passing skills, when I find so many of the passing skills to be less then useful on khemri. If your reduced to a passing game with khemri your usually on the receiving end of a butt beating. I know exactly what you mean with spending <in your case> several hundred US on a team to have the rules change <and in the case of ogres the number of players you need.> and being stuck with either selling for a loss or in general ending up with unusable ogres and goblins. I was planning on an ogre team, but with snotlings being at a premium on e-bay I guess It will have to wait until I hit the lotto . |
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Touch my Mini's and Pull Back A Stump!!!!!
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Khaine |
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 02, 2005 - 10:09 AM
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Joined: Sep 06, 2003
Posts: 193
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| Just out of curiosity, where did this idea of tier 2 non stunty teams come from? I mean I understand the logic behind a goblin and halfling teams being "worse" then say orcs or humans, but why are the non stunty teams catagorized by a tier system. I guess I may be a bit optimistic in the way games can be balanced, but why couldn't certain teams just be better at certain things like they are now, but made so that almost everyone is on equal footing... Make it the Coach and not the teams sta line that makes the difference in a game. I'm sure there are halfling coaches out there that can overcome this, but team choice should be less about a stat line to be competitive and more about I dig the models, or I like the fluff, or even on the outside I play a <insert army name> army and I would like to carry it over to blood bowl. I actually fell into the statline trap myself this league and I am having less fun then I would have if I would have played my khemri. While pro elves are fun to play and have taken me to a 3-0 season so far with only 2 nigglings to show for it, I feel I am doing well with them. I would have perfered to play my khemri, but with the shortness of the league I almost felt I had to play a more scoring oriented team. Anyway I just really would like to see closer balance of teams. I would also like to see the rules changed with a mind towards the fact that we are spending cash on mini's. I personally would be annoyed beyong belief if I was forced to change the makeup of my team just to get in line with the rules. |
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Touch my Mini's and Pull Back A Stump!!!!!
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GalakStarscraper |
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 03, 2005 - 12:00 PM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 1562
Status: Offline
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KarlLagerbottom wrote: P.S. The statement that the Gobbos are off of the Ogre team because ther already is a Goblin team should be brought to the attention to the person who keeps inventing Undead teams. I mean seriously how many of these variants do we need. I actually like them, but if that is being used as a justification to nerf the Ogre's further than let's please at least be consistant.
The Undead was supposed to be deleted from Blood Bowl. Issue #9 of Blood Bowl Magazine has an entire article written by JJ explaining why the Undead team were being removed from BB.
Likewise the High Elf team was supposed to be deleted at the same time.
However due to massive and I really mean massive amount of screaming by a lot of coaches (not just a handful of loud ones), these 2 teams were not deleted from the game.
So Rob ... hope the history lesson helps ... it wasn't the BBRC that created 3 Undead teams ... you can blame that on TBB to be perfectly honest. Me personally ... if I thought I could get away with it for the new rules ... I'd still delete both the Undead and High Elf teams
Galak |
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GalakStarscraper |
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 03, 2005 - 12:07 PM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 1562
Status: Offline
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GalakStarscraper |
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 03, 2005 - 12:16 PM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 1562
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KarlLagerbottom wrote: Please...someone direct me to the Khemri fluff that says they are supposed to be so competitive.
Champions of Death are so clearly a Khemri team from the 2nd edition fluff. Yeah 3rd edition tried to recreate the team, but the bottom line is that I'd argue that the Champions are a Khemri team.
In fact, for the 20th anniversary edition we've strongly considered moving the Champions of Death back to the Khemri section instead of being an Undead team profile.
Galak |
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GalakStarscraper |
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 03, 2005 - 12:27 PM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
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carmachu wrote: No problem. I dont see it as getting on my case.
If teir 1 lose 50% of the time, losing 60% of the time, or 65% of the time isnt bad. Less of a chance, but still a decent chance.
Losing 75% of the time really isnt acceptable. In regards to the Flings ... I'm not sure why you are convinced they are so much worse in the new rules.
1) Grab makes the Treemen much better players.
2) Grab + Multiple Block REALLY makes them much better players.
3) Jump Up again makes the Treeman MUCH better if you want to take it on doubles (since the 4+ roll to block is the same as the 4+ roll to stand up so you get a block action for free with it .. or can just stand up without the 4+ roll).
4) While Throw Team-Mate is limited to 6 squares (7 with Strong Arm or Deeproot) for a Treeman .... its 6 squares in any direction (including diagonals) and you NEVER fumble the player (so no more dropping the player on his head when you try to pass him).
For the Flings:
1) While you don't get the Master Chef's free roll any more or the extra ingredients for 20k ... he is still pretty easy to get for any given game.
2) Halfling can take Dauntless on doubles
3) The Bloodweiser Babe is a serious asset to Halfling teams to fielding a stronger team the entire match.
The 1 in 4 win rate is supposed to be true for LRB 4.0 as well for Flings and Goblins... if you don't think it is ... that's great. I don't think you'll find your success with Flings any less with the PBBL rules.
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dmchale |
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 03, 2005 - 02:19 PM
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Joined: Jun 22, 2005
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galak, what do you think the odds are of "forgetting" to include the HE and Undead teams from the 2007 and seeing if JJ notices? While I love my HE's to death, I would be behind trimming out some of the "fat" from the race selection.
People screamed about it back then, but what is the player base consensus now? I know I've seen multiple threads with people saying they would like to see some of the elf/undead excess removed... perhaps it would have a shot nowadays? |
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carmachu |
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Posted: Oct 03, 2005 - 04:52 PM
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Joined: Sep 27, 2005
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GalakStarscraper wrote: In regards to the Flings ... I'm not sure why you are convinced they are so much worse in the new rules.
First off, you might notice I've said I'm holding off final judgement to see the final product.
Second: I'm going by the statements of losing 3 out of 4 games. You said thats true of current edition. Dont see it. I see, in league play, early on you'll be in there with the best of them, but as the league goes on, you dont build nearly as well, and you'll find it harder and harder.
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Spazzfist |
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 03, 2005 - 04:54 PM
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Joined: Aug 16, 2004
Canada
Posts: 3954
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
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Khaine wrote: I guess I may be a bit optimistic in the way games can be balanced, but why couldn't certain teams just be better at certain things like they are now, but made so that almost everyone is on equal footing... Make it the Coach and not the teams sta line that makes the difference in a game.
I totally agree. You want to run and pass, play elves, you want to hit play orcs or dwarves. I don't agree with some of these proposed changes, especially what is planned for ogres. I mean, they are the biggest players in Blood Bowl (with the exception of treemen) why should they be so lousy? |
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#1 Nurgle coach in Canada (formerly the world!)
#1 Snotling coach in Canada
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GalakStarscraper |
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 03, 2005 - 05:19 PM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 1562
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carmachu wrote: Second: I'm going by the statements of losing 3 out of 4 games. You said thats true of current edition. Dont see it. That's because you are a good Fling coach... I don't lose 3 of 4 with Flings either. But that is the same metric that the LRB 4.0 is held to ... so there was no change in the goal of the team winning from LRB 4.0 to PBBL at all.
==============
Also to Spazzfist ... you don't like the Snotlings .. I'm really sorry.
But Ogres were repriced to 140k ... ALL the Big Guy in PBBL had price increases to make them more optional players than mandatory players on the teams they are on.
Now you build a team with 40k Goblins and 140k Ogres and let me know how many different rosters you come up with.
At least with the new Ogre team ... you've got options to actually design a team rather than pick it up off the shelf.
Galak |
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 03, 2005 - 08:44 PM
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Joined: Feb 11, 2003
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GalakStarscraper wrote: you can blame that on TBB to be perfectly honest.
You're full of crap. No one ever listened to us on TBB. |
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Snew
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Spazzfist |
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 03, 2005 - 09:06 PM
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Joined: Aug 16, 2004
Canada
Posts: 3954
Location: Canada
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| Fine the price increase I can live with, but all the other changes to the ogres (use of rerolls, snotlijgs, etc.) makes them a crappy team. BTW you never did get toi my question. You are so interested in fluff, so why does the ogre team have to be so bad - as you said, on par with the halflings? Where does the fluff support that? |
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#1 Nurgle coach in Canada (formerly the world!)
#1 Snotling coach in Canada
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GalakStarscraper |
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 03, 2005 - 09:53 PM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 1562
Status: Offline
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Spazzfist wrote: Where does the fluff support that? What the fluff/rules supports is that Snotlings DID play on Ogre teams. An Ogre team in 2nd edition could be 6 Ogre + 8 Snotlings or 7 Ogres + 4 Snotlings.
As for the fluff ... if we followed the fluff .. you'd have to roll to see if you forfeit the match at the start of it since Ogres frequently couldn't even figure out where they were supposed to be playing.
As for the Ogre team not being good. That's was JJ's view of the team. Since you very well cannot have the team lose half its game on a pre-game dice roll for not showing up that was translated into the team performing poorly. When JJ first announced that he was working on the Ogre team he quite simply said ... "I want BB to have an ST 5 Halfling team". I remember that very clearly.
Again ... I apologize you don't like it. Some folks really have ... doesn't make it any better for you personally.
Galak |
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GalakStarscraper |
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 03, 2005 - 09:55 PM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 1562
Status: Offline
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dmchale wrote: People screamed about it back then, but what is the player base consensus now? Not enough for me to pull it off.
I'm not even going to run another poll to see. I know the tide has turned ... and a lot of folks would like to see some teams trimmed. But to be honest ... you'll find a very mixed bag of folks that would MUCH rather see the Khemri or Necro team deleted than the Undead who were supposed to go in the first place.
So I've just left that topic alone.
Galak |
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JumpingElf |
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 04, 2005 - 04:03 AM
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Joined: Sep 27, 2005
Posts: 36
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... Ouch!  Every day the same never ending story. It´s the conflict between player interests and the balance of the game. If we think about that, we have to have to play with the rules like they are or we make houserules and play the game like we want to.  But never forget the background of the game and there are no great Ogre- or Khemriteams in Bloobowl history.  Otherwise most of the Ogrecoaches use the Ogreteams as a better Goblinteams, because they can use more BigGuys. Is this against the game balance? I think defenitly yes! So I totaly agree with the new rules! |
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