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biggy |
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Post subject:
 Posted: Oct 05, 2005 - 11:14 PM
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The point is not that 'money equals playability'. My basic complaint is that (up until now) Bloodbowl has not generally succumbed to the change the rules - waste our customers time and money ethic that the rest of GW espouses.
As for goblins as snotlings? That is the age-old GW response "you can always use the 'counts-as' rule". It's not the same and it's not fair on your opponents. I for one like to have representative teams both for my own esthetic pleasure and for ease of play for my opponents. Look at it this way, an ogre team is still able to use some goblin star players. You put one of them on the pitch then it's very easy for your opponent (in the heat of battle as it were) to forget the rest of those 'goblin figures' are snotlings and assume your goblins are just that - goblins. I know a great many players who simply would not correct their opponent on this.
I understand the issues here (specifically balance), but surely the most pertinent place for balance is a tournament. At a tournament the ogres don't get the opportunity to advance very far and the team generally sucks. In a league it's basically a friendly situation anyway and with the inducement rules in the vault a balance can be achieved.
If you must change things don't go the knee-jerk route. Lower the number of ogres to say 8 that way you can still realistically call it an ogre team (not a snotling team with some ogres).
All of this is pretty useless anyway. If being around the gaming industry for 20 years has taught me anything it's that GW will do what GW wants not what the customers want. All us poor saps that want a representative team will just have to shell out for some snotlings I guess.
Andrew |
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"Crush your enemies. See them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women!"
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Spazzfist |
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 06, 2005 - 05:50 AM
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Joined: Aug 16, 2004
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GalakStarscraper wrote: I would allow any coach that wanted to use Goblins for Snotling minis to do so. Even a GW tournament would allow this as they are still GW and still easily representive of the player they are for.
...and do you speak for GW on this Galak? I will believe this when I see it. |
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#1 Nurgle coach in Canada (formerly the world!)
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Doubleskulls |
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 06, 2005 - 06:10 AM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Mar 05, 2003
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Andrew - GW didn't make the change. Galak & I did. This has nothing to do with money and everything to do with game play.
The balance is crucial to league play because many people don't play in the same sort of league you do - and having an unbalanced killer team is bad for Blood Bowl - especially when the new rules are designed to promote long term league balance. Tournament play is not a significant consideration.
Sell your unpainted Ogres on eBay or something and you shouldn't be too far out of pocket. Heck, sell your painted Ogres & gobbos and I'm sure you'll make a handsome profit. |
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Ian 'Double Skulls' Williams
SLOBB
NAF Racial Results
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Khaine |
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 06, 2005 - 10:34 AM
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Doubleskulls wrote:
Sell your unpainted Ogres on eBay or something and you shouldn't be too far out of pocket. Heck, sell your painted Ogres & gobbos and I'm sure you'll make a handsome profit.
WOW just WOW. So you don't consider the investment into a game something that should at least be looked at for the rules? I mean it's all well and good to say e-bay unpainted mini's for a loss when your not the one having to sell them off for a loss.. |
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Touch my Mini's and Pull Back A Stump!!!!!
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Igor_Tahavanale |
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 06, 2005 - 10:49 AM
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Joined: Mar 27, 2005
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Quote: So you don't consider the investment into a game something that should at least be looked at for the rules? I mean it's all well and good to say e-bay unpainted mini's for a loss when your not the one having to sell them off for a loss.. Erm, no. If purchase of minis is allowed to drive rules then everyone can still play a Vampire Lord on their Vamp teams, cos the mini was purchased by just about all the coaches I would guess. The game balance is far more important. What is the point in playing a team which has been recognised as broken and which everyone knows wil eventually spoil their fun?
Maybe GW/fanatic should make it even clearer when they write the articles for unoffical or exerimental teams that the rules may be subject to change, and probably will change. Maybe its clear enough. I'll be honest, I don't have a ton of spare cash each month and I've been holding off the Ogre team until it settles down. I would have got it in its current incarnation, and then I'd have been screwed out of a load of Gobbos. So I can sympathise. But if you purchase for a team that is experiemental its a risk you take.
Still, on the bright side, with all the Ogres that were made illegal on a load of teams the other year a lot of people will have a load of spare Ogre minis anyway  
The only other thing is ask that your league continue to allow your team "as is" because of your investment. They may say yes, just be prepared for them to ask you to drop the team later if it is obvoiusly broken. |
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Spazzfist |
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 06, 2005 - 02:02 PM
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I think you are missing the point of the argument. If the team is broken, it should have been realized as suchg long before they made it official and encouraged people to buy all the models.
The fact that they can't seem to "get it right" is frustrating to all of us who go out and buy the teams, only to find out that they are no longer playable under new rules. |
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#1 Nurgle coach in Canada (formerly the world!)
#1 Snotling coach in Canada
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Khaine |
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 06, 2005 - 04:07 PM
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Joined: Sep 06, 2003
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Spazzfist wrote: I think you are missing the point of the argument. If the team is broken, it should have been realized as suchg long before they made it official and encouraged people to buy all the models.
The fact that they can't seem to "get it right" is frustrating to all of us who go out and buy the teams, only to find out that they are no longer playable under new rules.
Exactly. The Ogre team WAS official, and so people spent good money on the mini's. Ok so the teams broken and being fixed in 2007. For those who have 12 ogres and a dump truck load of goblins and not playing a goblin team are just kind of SoL. |
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Touch my Mini's and Pull Back A Stump!!!!!
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 06, 2005 - 05:21 PM
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Joined: Feb 11, 2003
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They should only have 6 Goblins.  |
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Snew
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biggy |
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 06, 2005 - 05:50 PM
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Oh OK just sell them. That solves everything. I invest more time and effort in painting than most BB coaches. I rarely sell my painted stuff because of the effort that goes into it. This is one reason why it's so annoying. All you whiners saying 'you can't base rules on purchases' wake up! That is not what I'm saying. In the past changes have been made to 'broken teams' that did not completely screw the team owners. A vampire lord is still a vampire. Use him as your team captain. A Goblin is not a Snotling and 6 Ogres is not 10 fully painted Ogres. This is the first time that BB has gone the Warhammer or 40k route and changed things wholesale.
Doubleskulls if only you and Galak are making the decisions then perhaps you should ask yourselves if making the changes the YOU TWO think are the best rather than what the majority of players want.
A lot of players I have spoken to recently feel that they are being ignored in a process that was supposed to include input from many coaches and that they're being TOLD 'no this is best for you'.
Maybe you should take a step back and look at that.
Andrew |
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"Crush your enemies. See them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women!"
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Spazzfist |
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 06, 2005 - 07:46 PM
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Joined: Aug 16, 2004
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ABigwood wrote: Doubleskulls if only you and Galak are making the decisions then perhaps you should ask yourselves if making the changes the YOU TWO think are the best rather than what the majority of players want.
A lot of players I have spoken to recently feel that they are being ignored in a process that was supposed to include input from many coaches and that they're being TOLD 'no this is best for you'.
Maybe you should take a step back and look at that.
Andrew
I second this.
I have to tell you, I was always indifferent to the Vault and thought that it was a good breeding ground for some interesting ideas. But this is enough to push me off the fence.
I do not mind fixing something that is indeed broken, but anything that I have read in the new LRB, anything that Galak or other pro-Vault boyz have written on here has only solidified my opinion that what you are doing to the Ogre team is wrong, wrong wrong. On so many levels it is wrong. |
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#1 Nurgle coach in Canada (formerly the world!)
#1 Snotling coach in Canada
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Spazzfist |
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 06, 2005 - 07:57 PM
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Doubleskulls wrote: This is an old conversation that would be better off on either TBB or the GW site.
Now Ian, would you have been saying this if you knew that this kind of discussion would not ensue? You even said later in the thread that you did not wanted to keep this a nice civil forum where people are not getting upset by the Vault. Then why does the Vault do things like this? I can live with change, I can handle modifying an existing team so that they are less broken. Make the ogres more expensive, make it harder for them to use rerolls. But to make them "S5 halflings" is preposterous. There is no reason for that. |
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Paul |
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 06, 2005 - 08:59 PM
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Joined: Feb 18, 2005
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Quote: This is the first time that BB has gone the Warhammer or 40k route and changed things wholesale.
I'm kinda curious, you keep bringing this up, and earlier mentioned your 4 unusable armies, but in the last 13 years that I've been playing GW games, I can only think of 1 case (Chaos Dwarfs in WFB) where they outright eliminated an army and made them unusable.
Second, sometimes when things are broken you gotta cut back on the number of players on the team. Skaven used to be able to have 2 Rat Ogres, now they only get 1. I've got 2 Rat Ogres, I spent time painting them, so why don't I raise a big fuss because I can't use all of them What else are you going to do to the Ogre team? Jack up their RR cost to balance them out? Raise the price of the Ogres (which the vault rules are doing)
Yea, they're loosing their goblin players, oh well, its only 6 players. If you don't like it, don't play ogres. The fact is, right now, they're incredibly devestating, especially after they get 10-15 games under their belt. Hey, I like playing them, and I probably will play them with snotlings, they're for fun, not to win every game. If I want to do that I'll play Skaven or Dwarfs. |
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Spazzfist |
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 06, 2005 - 09:03 PM
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Paul wrote: I'm kinda curious, you keep bringing this up, and earlier mentioned your 4 unusable armies, but in the last 13 years that I've been playing GW games, I can only think of 1 case (Chaos Dwarfs in WFB) where they outright eliminated an army and made them unusable.
Well for one, there were the squats in 40K. Prior to the lizardmen there was a Slann army for WFB. Not to mention the massive changes they made to the WFB undead army when they went the route of the Vampire Counts and Khemri lists. Characterful, yes, but they did leave a lot of people with units they could no longer use. And this is just what pops to mind..... |
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KarlLagerbottom |
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 06, 2005 - 09:34 PM
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Quote: Yea, they're loosing their goblin players, oh well, its only 6 players. If you don't like it, don't play ogres.
Paul-
Two immediate issue come to mind as I read your comments...
1. Quote: Yea, they're loosing their goblin players, oh well, its only 6 players
Ok, then if they suddenly drop Gutter Runner from the Skaven line-up, I guess a valid response would be...it's only 4 players get over it. The number of players has no relevance at all on the issue. The problem is that half of the team has their strength cut by 50% for the Ogre Team.
If the Skaven lost the Gutter Runners, it would suddenly lose the player that gives it it's character, and allows for that "I have three players on the pitch, but I can still score" ability. Lose those guys and suddenly MA 7 across the board with AG3 is another of those "This team is meant to Lose" teams when coupled with AV7 on most of the roster.
2. Quote: If you don't like it, don't play ogres.
Since we as fans/players of Blood Bowl are all on the same side, this is a fairly insensitive statement. Given that anyone who purchased a full team of Ogres made a fairly sizeable investment...and given thet we did so in good faith that the team was the team was the team...it's not a fair statement to now just say..."If you don't like it...too bad" when the context of the purchase is completely reversed. It is their game, and they can change it in any way that they like...I bought the figures for $20.00 a model and that is a sunk cost...BUT I have a right to express my dislike for the changes...AND it's not enough to just poo-poo these concerns in the manner that you (And others...the BBRC for example) have done. If this is supposed to be an open forum for point-counterpoint then folks like me that are voicing our disappointment at buying their product in good faith and great expense should at least be heard.
-Rob
P.S.
Quote: Skaven used to be able to have 2 Rat Ogres, now they only get 1. I've got 2 Rat Ogres, I spent time painting them, so why don't I raise a big fuss because I can't use all of them What else are you going to do to the Ogre team?
First of all...a second painted RatOgre is still useful because you could hire Headsplitter and have two on the pitch on occassion. Secondly, everyone is different. I'm not saying that you are wrong for not complaining...please don't tell me I am wrong for opting to let them know that I am not pleased with the changes that are planned. |
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biggy |
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 06, 2005 - 10:17 PM
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[quote]I'm kinda curious, you keep bringing this up, and earlier mentioned your 4 unusable armies, but in the last 13 years that I've been playing GW games, I can only think of 1 case (Chaos Dwarfs in WFB) where they outright eliminated an army and made them unusable.
OK then pick up a complete 1500 point army (any race) from even last edition of either game and see if you can play it as such under current rules without a) adding stuff (spending more money)
or b) using the infamous 'Counts as' rule. I have a fully painted Chaos Dwarf army. A fully painted Nurgle Demon army. A fully painted and converted 3rd ed. 'Lesser powers' of Chaos army (both Warhammer and Rogue trader) and a Rogue trader rules space marine army all of which are unable to be used because of rules changes. Why should I have to continually buy more stuf for a finished army? Anyway this is beside the point.
I'm not saying that things don't need to be cut back, what I'm saying is that knee-jerk reactions just make more problems. Sure cut back the ogres to say 8. Lower the strength of goblins to 1 and call them Gnoblars or whatever (at least then they can keep armour 7 and not die when a wood elf catcher hits them). Failing that have 0-6 ogre blockers with Agility 1 and 0-2 Ogre Blitzers with Agility 2 (The ogre figure in the sprinting position can be blitzers and the others blockers).
You don't need to completley castrate a team to fix them.
As I said, by far most coaches I've had contact with feel that a process that was supposed to improve things for everyone has devolved into a redesign of rules by a small number of people who don't appear to be listening to the 'unwashed masses'.
I never suggested that the reviewers were about money. What I said was basically that this process smacks of the GW ethic which IS about money. Intentional or not it's the way it looks and those not privvy to this whole design process will see it that way when the new set is released.
There are options that don't completly destroy teams and balance them anyway. To those few people who are redesigning things 'for OUR benefit' all I ask is that you listen to the people you're supposed to be helping and not tell us what is best for us.
Andrew |
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"Crush your enemies. See them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women!"
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