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GalakStarscraper |
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Post subject:
 Posted: Oct 06, 2005 - 10:54 PM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 1562
Status: Offline
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ABigwood wrote: perhaps you should ask yourselves if making the changes the YOU TWO think are the best rather than what the majority of players want. We did ... the majority of players asked for an Ogre team that wasn't broken once it was developed and didn't only have one roster option when created.
And to be honest ... Khaine started a poll at TBB to see if folks agreed with you 4 on this.
http://www.talkbloodbowl.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=17471
So far 22 votes saying in the end game balance is more important than money spent compared to 4 votes that the cash spent should be the major factor.
So ABigWood ... we did listen to the players ... they just were mostly on the other side of the fence.
Quote: This is the first time that BB has gone the Warhammer or 40k route and changed things wholesale.
Uhhhhh ... let's expose that statement to a harsher light...
Let's talk about the players who had Snotling teams, or Slann teams, or a Werewolf team in 2nd edition. What about the players that built entire 16 man Chaos Dwarf teams only have have them limited to 6 with the new team.
So if we follow what Spazzfist, Khaine, ABigwood, and KarlLagerbottom, then we'd still have these teams from 2nd edition because of the expense these players went to create their teams.
The Dwarf and Orc team would still have Ogres because those were expensive as well.
So yes I hear what you are saying ... but investment in miniatures is not a reason to not balance a team with an issue.
And to restate ... I'm affected by this change as much as anyone. I had built 2 different themed Ogre teams with 12 Ogres each. So I know have 12 extra Ogres. I losing a lot of money on these teams as well. So I hear what you all are saying. But in the end, I'd rather have to figure out what to do with 12 extra Ogres than to have a team that extensive playtesting shows problems.
As for playtesting. Yes the team was playtested but sometimes certain issues don't come to light until you have hundreds of players playing a team. That's why we've had the Vault openly ask for playtesters to give us feedback on balance on the game and will spend 2 years from the start to the end of playtesting to try and find the problems. The change to the Ogre team is a direct result of feedback from the playtesters.
Again ... I feel the pain of your loss directly as this change affects me just as much as each of you. And yes venting is fine. But if we allowed money spent to control the rules of the game, we'd still have several of the teams from 2nd edition.
Galak |
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Gothmog |
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 06, 2005 - 11:23 PM
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Joined: Jan 09, 2005
Posts: 17
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I have to say as an Ogre team owner, i'm not overly thrilled with the change either.... but i do see the concern. In the 2 cups they have played in so far, my team has won the first and came in second in the next... everyone is scared Sh&^less with the next 2 coming up. This is a league of 12 teams with experianced coaches. So yes i would grugenly agree that some chances are needed... but not total castration.
And where can you find these... snottling mini's? I can't find them on GW web store. |
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biggy |
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 07, 2005 - 12:49 AM
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Joined: Feb 13, 2003
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Posts: 57
Location: Undisclosed
Status: Offline
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You can't get snotling BB minis for love nor money.
Galak, as I've think I've stated several times money for playability was not what I was saying. In the last two weeks I've spoken with (either directly or via e-mail) with somewhere in the vicinity of 30 coaches who all feel disadvantaged and ignored by the current changes going on. I've seen several realistically viable options for toning back the ogre team that don't involve destroying it. Most of these options have not even warranted a 'thanks but no-thanks' from the 'reviewers'. This is what is leading to player dissatisfaction with the whole process.
The ogre problem simply brings this to light.
Now I for one have no illusions that the powers that be would condescend to change their opinions simply because people suggested mutually beneficial solutions. We are after all only the ones that play the game.
Andrew |
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"Crush your enemies. See them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women!"
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alternat |
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 07, 2005 - 01:18 AM
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Joined: Apr 02, 2004
Posts: 39
Status: Offline
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Vault was created a couple of years ago, and since then it never stopped discuss on "fixing things". There are pages and pages of suggestions, and discussions, and flames almost about everything.
I see your point and I'm sorry, but to complain here and now it's a little bit late.
by the way, you have the whole 2006 and 2007 to enjoy your ogres, before Vault rules will come to effect. |
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Igor_Tahavanale |
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 07, 2005 - 05:36 AM
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Joined: Mar 27, 2005
Worcestershire
Posts: 51
Location: Worcestershire
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Quote: Spazzfist I think you are missing the point of the argument. If the team is broken, it should have been realized as suchg long before they made it official and encouraged people to buy all the models.
The fact that they can't seem to "get it right" is frustrating to all of us who go out and buy the teams, only to find out that they are no longer playable under new rules. No, I was answering a slightly different argument. Also bear in mind that I'm not personally knowledgable on the date that the guy purchased the minis.
I am in total agreement with the argument that these things should be right before they are made official. Whilst I do agree that minis owned should never be more important than the game balance I do think that the balance should be right before the stuff is made official. Releasing a team and then telling someone that £60 of it is of no use is a bit rough.
And on a seperate issue would it really bo so hard for GW to run off a load more BB snotlings. They're putting them on the Ogres, they're publishing (ok experimental) rules for them, and they're not selling them. Thats also quite slack. On recent performance... bad GW, bad fanatic. Say sorry.
It seems recently that Ogres, and everything connected with them, is destined to be diddled by the almighty powers that be. |
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Spazzfist |
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 07, 2005 - 06:00 AM
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Joined: Aug 16, 2004
Canada
Posts: 3954
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
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GalakStarscraper wrote: So far 22 votes saying in the end game balance is more important than money spent compared to 4 votes that the cash spent should be the major factor.
But you are misrepresenting the stats Galak. There are not 22 people saying that there are only 16. Then there are 16 who say that there is a mix of game balance and investment needed, and 6 who say that their investment is most important. So if you want to look at it that way Galak, there are 22 people who say they do care about investment, which overrules your side of the fence as it were.
For the record I am not most concerned about the investment of my ogre team. I just hate what you propose on doing to them. |
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#1 Nurgle coach in Canada (formerly the world!)
#1 Snotling coach in Canada
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alternat |
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 07, 2005 - 06:01 AM
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Joined: Apr 02, 2004
Posts: 39
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Fanatic Games are not strategic for GW, it has been told some time ago.
Support for them will come only and only if there are resources to spare from "core games".
so, don't expect new teams very soon (surprised about humans, but most likely they were already going), and new star player minis as well.
in short: do with what you have, and have fun. |
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Spazzfist |
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 07, 2005 - 06:02 AM
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Joined: Aug 16, 2004
Canada
Posts: 3954
Location: Canada
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GalakStarscraper wrote: As for playtesting. Yes the team was playtested but sometimes certain issues don't come to light until you have hundreds of players playing a team. That's why we've had the Vault openly ask for playtesters to give us feedback on balance on the game and will spend 2 years from the start to the end of playtesting to try and find the problems. The change to the Ogre team is a direct result of feedback from the playtesters.
So then the question begs to be asked: Why are there so many other changes to the game being made? Was it really that broken?? By this I mean the addition of all the new skills. To my mind it it is opneing up the potential to have many problems which "were not seen until playtested by hundreds". 
Spazz |
_________________
#1 Nurgle coach in Canada (formerly the world!)
#1 Snotling coach in Canada
Last edited by Spazzfist on Oct 10, 2005 - 09:44 AM; edited 1 time in total
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GalakStarscraper |
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 07, 2005 - 07:16 AM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 1562
Status: Offline
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ABigwood wrote: I've seen several realistically viable options for toning back the ogre team that don't involve destroying it. Most of these options have not even warranted a 'thanks but no-thanks' from the 'reviewers'. This is what is leading to player dissatisfaction with the whole process. That is so totally not true. I have discussed at length all the suggestions on the SG forums. I've made special efforts to not ignore ANYONE who posts on that forum. Other forums ... yeah ... I may not have even seen the thread. But the Experimental SG forum, I've responded to everything there.
If your 30 folks are not posting there ... I'm sorry but that is the forum for the feedback.
Galak |
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Doubleskulls |
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 07, 2005 - 07:19 AM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Mar 05, 2003
Undisclosed
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Location: Kent, UK
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Doubleskulls |
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 10, 2005 - 03:10 AM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Mar 05, 2003
Undisclosed
Posts: 2627
Location: Kent, UK
Status: Offline
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| Someone can't access the other forums so I've unlocked it. |
_________________
Ian 'Double Skulls' Williams
SLOBB
NAF Racial Results
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Spazzfist |
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 10, 2005 - 07:44 PM
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Joined: Aug 16, 2004
Canada
Posts: 3954
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
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Doubleskulls wrote: Someone can't access the other forums so I've unlocked it.
I'll bite my tongue on that one..... 
Anyways, just so eveything is clear Galak, could you maybe give us a rundown of how this process of taking an existing set of rules (which need tweaking - no argument there) and coming up with a new set? Besides JJ's input of S5 Halflings, what else takes place? How is it decided what new rules will be? (My apologies to anyone who has heard this a hundred times before....) What considerations are given (if any) to the coaches of those existing teams in terms of the overall team strength, models, etc. |
_________________
#1 Nurgle coach in Canada (formerly the world!)
#1 Snotling coach in Canada
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GalakStarscraper |
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 10, 2005 - 09:50 PM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 1562
Status: Offline
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http://www.blood-bowl.net/LRB_PBBL/PBBL/PBBL_1.10.pdf
I will try to do this explanation justice. The above is the latest version of PBBL sent to GW. The next version is not scheduled until mid to late February, but no major changes are planned (or even desired) for that version.
Rundown. March 1, 2004, JJ announces plans for a 20th anniversary edition of Blood Bowl. BB is to be taken back to 3rd edition and the the "patches" as he saw them in BB fixed.
These patches as he saw that he wanted wiped out included:
1) Special team rules (such as the double costs for stars for Goblins and Halflings or mutation access rules for Skaven and Chaos)
2) Traits
3) The Handicap table
4) The fact that Blood Bowl over-rewarded the older and higher Team Rating team.
5) The Special Play Cards no longer being part of the game.
Not all of these came right out in March ... but over the course of a couple months most of these were announced.
ALL coaches were invited to join the discussion on multiple occassions. This has been an open forum project since May 10, 2004. So as to what considerations were given to the coaches of existing teams ... they were all openly welcome to participate in the discussions on possible changes to their teams.
As for How is it decided what new rules will be? Most of the new rules that were worked out where based on JJ's basic goals for the new version and feedback from the playtesters over the last year+ of playtesting.
Two teams were changed majorly from this project.
The Ogre team was given Snotlings instead of Goblins and reduced to 0-6. This was based on direct feedback from multiple leagues where LRB and PBBL had been played at length. The end result was a desire to make a Tier 3 team on par with the abilities of the Halfling team that was not so extreme bashy when developed. We also wanted the Ogre coaches to be able to have more than one or two roster options for building a starting team.
The other team changed majorly was the Nurgle team which was struggling (really struggling) in virtually all leagues we received feedback from. The team was changed to have more disposable and easily replaced Linemen with the rest of the team having Regeneration to aid survival. (in the end the team much more resembles its 1st edition roots)
That's it in a nutshell. 19 1/2 months ago this project started. 17 of those months anyone willing to take the time and effort to assist (and several who didn't) have been able to voice their opinions and playtesting results. PBBL 1.10 is the result of that 19 1/2 months of work and playtesting.
Galak |
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carmachu |
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 11, 2005 - 04:50 PM
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Joined: Sep 27, 2005
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Status: Offline
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GalakStarscraper wrote:
So yes I hear what you are saying ... but investment in miniatures is not a reason to not balance a team with an issue.
And once again, the GW machine keeps rolling. Sorry to sound cynical, but forthe most part, the "change in rules means you have to buy new minis" method of GW was mostly free in BB.
Now we see its not. Shock and suprise.
*shrug* We'll see how the final product is, and we'll make a decision then.
I'm just glad I didnt drop $15 per ogre..... |
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Paul |
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 11, 2005 - 05:28 PM
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Joined: Feb 18, 2005
Canada
Posts: 423
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
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Quote: And once again, the GW machine keeps rolling. Sorry to sound cynical, but forthe most part, the "change in rules means you have to buy new minis" method of GW was mostly free in BB.
Geze, its only 1 team thats effected. You're ogres are still good, you gotta shell out for some Snotlings (which, last I checked are pretty cheep when you consider you get 10-20 of them in a pack) Its not like they're eliminating all the blitzers in the game.
Also, GW is a business right, they've gotta make money. Name any other game company that doesn't change the rules and make previous purchases out-dated.
What would you prefer, a team that is grossly overpowered that stays that way forever and ever amen becuase some people "already bought the minis"? |
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