NAF Logo
leftstar Jul 07, 2024 - 10:27 PM
capleft
spacer
NAF World Headquarters
home forum rankings tourneys nyleague faq
Ask Lord Borak rightstar
capright

Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic Printable version Log in to check your private messages View next topic
Author Message
ShaneOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: May 15, 2006 - 11:38 AM



Joined: Jun 29, 2005
Boston-ish
Posts: 19

Status: Offline
To Uthrac:

--->I think a boycott of point-bonus system is "making the Perfect the enemy of the Good." While I concur with your ideas on accessibility and increase of local player pool size, the point-bonus variety is by far superior to non-painters when compared to the "must be painted or you can't play" rule, which is the other option used in some NAF tourneys (see the recent NA Cup rulebook.)

A separation of Paint and Game is ideal, but the point score compromise is exactly that, a compromise. Staunch Hobbyists aren't guaranteed that every team they play will be up for Best Painted (or even painted at all,) but can take solace in their opponent being nominally penalized for "not caring about the hobby," while Gamers can play in a larger pool of players without worrying they'll be kicked out for not having their whole team based, at a cost of a very low percent chance of the tourney outcome being altered by a painting score.

--->Alternately, any interest on DP's part in having it's own tournament some other weekend?

_________________
Shane Yeager, Licensed Rules Lawyer
 
 View user's profile Send private message  
Reply with quote Back to top
Melifaxis
Post subject:   PostPosted: May 15, 2006 - 11:52 AM



Joined: Feb 10, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 2320
Location: United States of America
      Da Rulez wrote:

A portion of the tournament points will be awarded based upon team painting and presentation. Up to 10 points are awarded based on the criteria below. The official tournament judges will evaluate each team based on these 4 points and not on the aesthetics of the team. This means that any painter of any standard can gain the maximum ten points if he/she puts in the effort and follows the guidelines below. All judges decisions are final.

Based ??? 2 points: All the bases in the team, including sideline staff, are painted and or textured in some manner. Just being painted green is not enough.

Painted ??? 2 points: The team is painted. All models must have at least 3 colors on them. Undercoats must not be visible.

Detailed ??? 2 points: All models have had the details painted in a variety of colors or with noticeable effects. This can be shading or highlighting etc. This discriminates between the merely painted team and the team that has had attention paid to it.

Representative ??? 4 points: All models on the team are representative of the race and position that they are meant to portray. Extra weapons that are not part of a finished and painted figure should be removed. This does not mean that you must use official Blood Bowl miniatures. Only that an Ogre should look like an Ogre, a Dwarf should look like a Dwarf, etc

Important: In order to get the points, all models in the team must fulfill the criteria. If even one model fails, the points will not be awarded.


      ryltar wrote:

I have fully painted teams... well, one that meets all the standards at any rate, and if you wanted to apply the 'representative' clause I'd lose all four as my elves are painted as drow (no such thing in BloodHammer world).

Greg


Your high elves got 10 points at ArisiaBowl based on the exact same system. I'm curious as to how it has now become an objectionable system based upon the foundations of principle.

The color scheme any coach chooses is irrelevant. Paint your high elves, dwarves, or orcs like a troupe of circus clowns or mimes, paint your dwarves like dreugar, or paint your beastmen with hideous pink fur; you just have to meet the criteria laid out in the rules.

While I do appreciate the feedback, I dont think the argument for change is strong enough. In looking at these rules again, I will making a correction/clarification in specifying that all players must be numbered.

_________________
aka Rob (NAF #248)
President of the Lord Borak Fan Club
Founder of the GCLU
Commissioner, TO, Goblin King, NEBBN TSO
 
 View user's profile Send private message  
Reply with quote Back to top
UthracOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: May 15, 2006 - 12:28 PM



Joined: Jan 09, 2006

Posts: 16

Status: Offline
      Shane wrote:
To Uthrac:

--->I think a boycott of point-bonus system is "making the Perfect the enemy of the Good." While I concur with your ideas on accessibility and increase of local player pool size, the point-bonus variety is by far superior to non-painters when compared to the "must be painted or you can't play" rule, which is the other option used in some NAF tourneys (see the recent NA Cup rulebook.)

A separation of Paint and Game is ideal, but the point score compromise is exactly that, a compromise. Staunch Hobbyists aren't guaranteed that every team they play will be up for Best Painted (or even painted at all,) but can take solace in their opponent being nominally penalized for "not caring about the hobby," while Gamers can play in a larger pool of players without worrying they'll be kicked out for not having their whole team based, at a cost of a very low percent chance of the tourney outcome being altered by a painting score.


Very well put. Thank you. Smile

I think what puts me off the most about the current painting rules is the depth . . . they really begin to read as criteria for a "painting award" than "encouragement to paint." I presume that the goal of "painting points" is to encourage coaches to bring a painted team. As Greg asked earler, have these rules encouraged anyone to improve the appearance of their team? [Not a rhetorical question . . .] "Representitive and at least 3 colors" seems sufficient painting guidelines to me, but that's my opinion.

Also, and I want to be clear on this, I don't want anyone to boycott the tournament. My personal feeling is that painting should not be used as part of the tournament score. {I would actually prefer sportsmanship Very Happy} As such, I feel it would be hypocritical of me to attend/support such an event. But that's a personal decision, and I certainly don't begrudge those who have no problem with the rules and want to have a good time! Smile

There's nothing "wrong" with using painting as part of the tournament score {. . . or sportsmanship, using official GW models, having an interesting team name, wearing funny hats, or anything else you'd like to include to encourage that everyone has a good time!}, it just isn't right for me. There may be others who feel the same way, there may not. However, that does not effect my personal feelings, or my decision not to participate. Smile Certainly, there are no hard feelings on my end, and I hope nobody else involved harbors any. Smile

      Shane wrote:
--->Alternately, any interest on DP's part in having it's own tournament some other weekend?


I know there are folks looking into this, and I may or may not be part of those plans. Smile We'd certainly try to space things out on the calendar, balancing between our own league schedule, Beantown, and Arisa!

Thanks again, Shane, for making me feel "heard" and for offering a constructive, well-written counter-point. Good luck at the tournament!

May all your rolls be Splat!, and may you always break armor.

~Uthrac[/i]
 
 View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website  
Reply with quote Back to top
bampfOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: May 15, 2006 - 01:17 PM



Joined: Jul 01, 2004

Posts: 219

Status: Offline
Good job with your grand moral stand over 10 points that you would have earned anyway. We understand your argument, it s just counter to everything the tourney and hobby represents to most of us. Sorry it s so hard for you to see that we d just as soon not play with someone so stuck up on such minor "compromises" (as Shane very eloquently put it).

Personally, we d rather come to Boston and have a fun time with fun opponents.

In any case, Melifaxis, I heartily apologize for co-opting your thread for such an inane discussion. The Mafia is looking to improve upon our attendance of 4 from last year... the plan is to rent a van and pack it as full of BBers as we can... we ll call it the Fossey Express (RobO, you need a pickup?).

Any word on that Fire and Ice sponsorship?
 
 View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website  
Reply with quote Back to top
KarlLagerbottomOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: May 15, 2006 - 02:05 PM



Joined: May 25, 2004
Undisclosed
Posts: 1148
Location: Undisclosed
Status: Offline
      Melifaxis wrote:
In looking at these rules again, I will making a correction/clarification in specifying that all players must be numbered.


Mel-
I think this is a good addition from both sides of the fence. I'm sure the Game-ist side of the coin will agree that this is a fair addition so that players with skills are more easy to identify when they are numbered. (at least)

-RobO

_________________
Karl Lagerbottom - Dwarf Blocker of Renown
NAF Member #5236
---
 
 View user's profile Send private message  
Reply with quote Back to top
KarlLagerbottomOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: May 15, 2006 - 02:07 PM



Joined: May 25, 2004
Undisclosed
Posts: 1148
Location: Undisclosed
Status: Offline
      bampf wrote:
(RobO, you need a pickup?).


Let me see if Jaylazer is planning on attending this year, and I'll follow-up with you...thanks for asking...time is getting away from me a bit. Rolling Eyes

_________________
Karl Lagerbottom - Dwarf Blocker of Renown
NAF Member #5236
---
 
 View user's profile Send private message  
Reply with quote Back to top
UthracOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: May 15, 2006 - 02:25 PM



Joined: Jan 09, 2006

Posts: 16

Status: Offline
It's detrimental comments like this:

      bampf wrote:
So no big loss


and this:

      bampf wrote:
. . . we d just as soon not play with someone so stuck up on such minor "compromises".


and this:

      bampf wrote:
Personally, we d rather come to Boston and have a fun time with fun opponents.


that speak volumes of you and the other participants (I'll assume plural since you refered to "we.") Since you have never played a game with me, you're hardly qualified to determined how "fun" I am. *shrug*

Your comments, which have directly attacked not only me, but others who have posted, reflect poorly on an event which boasts "good sportsmanship," "inclusion," and "fun for all." Others have said they would not enjoy playing in a tournament against players who don't care about the painting aspect, . . . far more importantly, I would not play in a tournament where someone with your poor attitude was in attendance.

You are perfectly in your right to disagree with my ideas and ideals. Your delivery, however, crosses the line into "poor sportsmanship."

Good luck to you in the tournament!

~Uthrac
 
 View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website  
Reply with quote Back to top
KarlLagerbottomOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: May 15, 2006 - 02:44 PM



Joined: May 25, 2004
Undisclosed
Posts: 1148
Location: Undisclosed
Status: Offline
This thread has inspired me...if I am able to make this tourney I think I'll call my team The Dead Horse Beaters.

I even have some of the players names sorted out. Smile

-RobO

P.S. I think I may use unnumbered/unpainted Dungeonbowl Dwarfs to demonstrate my love for the game of Blood Bowl.

EDIT: Good luck to those who can't figure out which playes are the blitzers...runners...slayers. Smile

"NO! This was the Blitzer with Strip Ball...this other guy was the blitzer with Mighty Blow and guard. By the way here is my pass action now that the ball is on the ground...sure hands...YES that is my Runner with PASS...and no he didn't just knock down your Gutter Runner using Tackle."

_________________
Karl Lagerbottom - Dwarf Blocker of Renown
NAF Member #5236
---
 
 View user's profile Send private message  
Reply with quote Back to top
bampfOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: May 15, 2006 - 04:29 PM



Joined: Jul 01, 2004

Posts: 219

Status: Offline
Ah, the poor poor horse. I think we ve pretty much figured out how much fun you are. You ve already stated your intent to boycott (of which we are overjoyed) why are you still posting on a Beantown thread?

Rob- I ll see how big a van we can get. Perhaps we can fit a Philly contingent as well. We ll see.
 
 View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website  
Reply with quote Back to top
ZinakOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: May 15, 2006 - 05:10 PM



Joined: Aug 06, 2003
Undisclosed
Posts: 153

Status: Offline
"its just 10 points"


WE

_________________
"It's just 10 points"
 
 View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address MSN Messenger ICQ Number 
Reply with quote Back to top
Hoshi_KomiOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: May 15, 2006 - 05:55 PM



Joined: Nov 23, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 550
Location: United States of America
Status: Offline
      Uthrac wrote:

that speak volumes of you and the other participants (I'll assume plural since you refered to "we.") Since you have never played a game with me, you're hardly qualified to determined how "fun" I am. *shrug*

you guys might have played each other at the NA CUP.
 
 View user's profile Send private message  
Reply with quote Back to top
CyberHare
Post subject:   PostPosted: May 15, 2006 - 07:32 PM



Joined: Feb 12, 2003

Posts: 1146

So is it 10 or 11 points for eating at Fire and Ice? Wink

Honestly I'm not sure what you guy's see in that place. We ate there last year and after waiting in line 15 minutes to have my food cooked it wasn't bad but nothing fantastic. Then I guess it is hard to stand up to the Montreal standards of dinning out Laughing

June 17th and 18th eh. And SBG is out. I'm guess that means if I can't make it MTL might not be represented this year Shocked It's going to be a tough sell to the wife though. After she heard I wanted to head back to England next March she pretty much squashed most of my tourney plans. I'll see what I can do.

_________________
Brian St.James
 
 View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website  
Reply with quote Back to top
KarlLagerbottomOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: May 15, 2006 - 07:40 PM



Joined: May 25, 2004
Undisclosed
Posts: 1148
Location: Undisclosed
Status: Offline
      CyberHare wrote:
...15 minutes to have my food cooked it wasn't bad but nothing fantastic. ...


To each his own, but how many resturants are you getting served in less that 15 minutes?

Now THIS is really gonna heat-up if you bash Fire And Ice.

Evil or Very Mad

_________________
Karl Lagerbottom - Dwarf Blocker of Renown
NAF Member #5236
---
 
 View user's profile Send private message  
Reply with quote Back to top
CyberHare
Post subject:   PostPosted: May 16, 2006 - 04:15 AM



Joined: Feb 12, 2003

Posts: 1146

      KarlLagerbottom wrote:
To each his own, but how many restaurants are you getting served in less that 15 minutes?

Now THIS is really gonna heat-up if you bash Fire And Ice.

Evil or Very Mad


I'd have to say I'm served at most restaurants in less than 15 minutes depending on what I order. But even then if it does take longer than 15 minutes I'm being served, not waiting in line. Knowing it'll take a little amount of time to get the meal I'll usually have a salad or some other entree. Anyway I'm not trying to put the place down. It was cool to see them cook the food right there.

_________________
Brian St.James


Last edited by CyberHare on May 16, 2006 - 08:10 AM; edited 1 time in total
 
 View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website  
Reply with quote Back to top
UthracOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: May 16, 2006 - 06:29 AM



Joined: Jan 09, 2006

Posts: 16

Status: Offline
      bampf wrote:
why are you still posting on a Beantown thread?


Point taken.
 
 View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website  
Reply with quote Back to top
Display posts from previous:     
Jump to:  
All times are
Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic Printable version Log in to check your private messages View next topic
Powered by PNphpBB2 © 2003-2009 The Zafenio Team
Credits