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Doubleskulls |
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Post subject:
 Posted: Jan 05, 2012 - 10:00 AM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Mar 05, 2003
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Posts: 2627
Location: Kent, UK
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Lizardcore |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 05, 2012 - 10:18 AM
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Joined: Apr 07, 2004
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@ doubleskulls: those rules are interesting, maybe too milde, but still things are going in an interesting direction.
@ dagger & whoever else: we can continue in PM, i think the point is clear enough now for people to have an idea about it.
For the fun, it comes from the people, not the rules  And yes canadians are fun to play with (or play against lets say  ) |
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daloonieshaman |
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Posted: Jan 05, 2012 - 10:19 AM
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Joined: Feb 28, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 883
Location: United States of America
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Doubleskulls wrote: Not trying to butt in, but the WCII did not have any rules that discriminated between races
no idea what you are talking about |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 05, 2012 - 10:21 AM
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Joined: Feb 10, 2003
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Location: Undisclosed
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daloonieshaman wrote: Doubleskulls wrote: Not trying to butt in, but the WCII did not have any rules that discriminated between races
no idea what you are talking about
This I guess:
Notorious_jtb wrote: Out of interest, what is your break down of the tiers under the World Cup II rules? |
_________________
_____ and rankings - that is all
#27 of the "24 club" (due to some dodgy accounting)
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Lizardcore |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 05, 2012 - 10:22 AM
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Joined: Apr 07, 2004
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| I guess he didnt read the entire 16 pages of our bullshits, and got confused |
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daloonieshaman |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 05, 2012 - 10:37 AM
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Joined: Feb 28, 2003
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Posts: 883
Location: United States of America
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Lizardcore wrote: I guess he didnt read the entire 16 pages of our bullshits, and got confused
most of it very good bullshits
Liz
I understand your idea of taking the discussion off forum as you well may. I would like to point out by having this in depth discussion it has been VERY productive with input from many members. (and some of the smart ass remarks are funny).
I will be part of the study group, but feel our progression should be posted at keep points. (no sense bringing up every fart  ) |
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Daggers |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 05, 2012 - 11:53 AM
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Joined: Dec 07, 2006
Canada
Posts: 1618
Location: Canada
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Darkson wrote: daloonieshaman wrote: Doubleskulls wrote: Not trying to butt in, but the WCII did not have any rules that discriminated between races
no idea what you are talking about
This I guess:
Notorious_jtb wrote: Out of interest, what is your break down of the tiers under the World Cup II rules?
That makes sense, I wasn't sure. It was a little confusing. |
_________________
Stunty Champion: Golden Sweetbun I-V , Canadian Open 2014-2015, Brewhouse Bowl 2015 (all with the EPIC IRON CHEFS)
Check out NAFCANADA.ca for the latest tournaments in Canada.
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Notorious_jtb |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 05, 2012 - 02:10 PM
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Joined: Sep 02, 2005
Canada
Posts: 1456
Location: Canada
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Lizardcore is of the opinion that the tiers are impacted by the rules systems used at tournaments.
I asked for what he thought the WCII rules meant for the tiers.
Sorry for any confusion.  |
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Doubleskulls |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 06, 2012 - 01:37 PM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Mar 05, 2003
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Location: Kent, UK
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It would probably have made more sense if it hadn't jumped to the top of the next page... or I'd bothered quoting!
Notorious_jtb - ah - I thought you thought the rules differentiated between the races, but they didn't. If you look at http://naf.talkfantasyfootball.org/tournaments/world_cup_ii.html you can see the averages for all the races at the world cup. It doesn't deviate massively from the norms for an LRB6 tournament, although its interesting how badly 'zons and Dwarves did and lizards a bit better. Most of the races in the bottom half and Nurgle have fairly small sample sizes (e.g. only 5 coaches playing Chaos) so aren't particularly reliable. |
_________________
Ian 'Double Skulls' Williams
SLOBB
NAF Racial Results
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Notorious_jtb |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 06, 2012 - 01:41 PM
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Joined: Sep 02, 2005
Canada
Posts: 1456
Location: Canada
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Doubleskulls wrote: It would probably have made more sense if it hadn't jumped to the top of the next page... or I'd bothered quoting!
Notorious_jtb - ah - I thought you thought the rules differentiated between the races, but they didn't. If you look at http://naf.talkfantasyfootball.org/tournaments/world_cup_ii.html you can see the averages for all the races at the world cup. It doesn't deviate massively from the norms for an LRB6 tournament, although its interesting how badly 'zons and Dwarves did and lizards a bit better. Most of the races in the bottom half and Nurgle have fairly small sample sizes (e.g. only 5 coaches playing Chaos) so aren't particularly reliable.
Yeah I love your data Doubleskulls, I linked to it in a few places already!!
I actually see a huge difference between Canada's stats and Europes. I think an absence of a broad knowledge of the tiers in Canada has created a different racial balance at tournaments. It definitely is interesting in hindsight.
For instance when I came to Canada everyone played dwarves, my orcs loved it!
It must be an incredible amount of work to keep updated, but awesome!! |
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Doubleskulls |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 07, 2012 - 03:17 AM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Mar 05, 2003
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Location: Kent, UK
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It took me a lot of work initially, but its all a computer program. It runs, downloads all the results from the NAF, and creates the html pages. Then I just upload it. So, although it takes about 30 mins to do, my bit only takes about 1 minute.
One of the nice things is that if you have Excel you can use the "Import from Web" feature to bring any of those pages into Excel and then start comparing or analysing them. |
_________________
Ian 'Double Skulls' Williams
SLOBB
NAF Racial Results
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Lizardcore |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 09, 2012 - 03:51 PM
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Joined: Apr 07, 2004
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Here is a synthesis based on the feedbck that my french fellow nicely gave me:
Firstly, everybody said that those rules were not really changing which Tier is winning the tournament, but it has changed some podiums.
Tiers definition: (into brackets is the tier certain people use when attributing some bonuses)
Undead = Tier 1
Wood elves = Tier 1
Dark Elves = Tier 1
Dwarves = Tier 1
Chaos Dwarves = Tier 1
Lizardmen = Tier 1
Amazones = Tier 1
Skaven = Tier 1
Orcs = Tier 1
Necro = Tier 1
Norses = Tier 1
Humans = Tier 2 (1)
Pro elves = Tier 2 (1)
Chaos Pact = Tier 2 (1)
Chaos = Tier 2
Slanns = Tier 2
Khemri = Tier 2
High Elves = Tier 2
Nurgle = Tier 2
Slanns = Tier 2
Underworld = Tier 2
Gobelins = Tier 3 (2)
Ogres = Tier 3 (2)
Halfling = Tier 3
Vampires = Tier 3
Options:
1/ Don’t change anything, but award each tier separately (i.e. tier 1 winner, tier 2 winner and tier 3 winner)
This is not so adapted for a team event.
2/ TV110 + 5 skills:
- Undead and wood elves have no “double†skill.
- The rest of the teams can have up to 1 “double†skill.
- Gobs, and Halfling can have to 4 double skills.
Alternatively:
- Tier 2 has 6 skills, Tier 3 has 7 skills (then you can adapt the number of doubles…)
3/ Variable TVs:
Team creation: Tier 1 = 110, Tier 2 = 120, Tier 3 = 125 (or 130). or Tier 1 and 2 = TV110, Tier 2 = 120.
Skills: regular skill pack or modified skill packs (see above).
Something that is almost never done in France is to allow skill purchase with team creation money, as it completely screws up the balance that have been achievec by adjusting player/reroll costs since LRB 3.0.
4/ Other modifications:
A free leader skill for tier 2 and 3 teams. Or 1 free mutation for Underworld, Chaos, Chaos pact and Nurgle teams. Or ...
My favorite:
TV110 + 5 skills:
- Undead and wood elves have no “double†skill.
- The rest of the teams can have up to 1 “double†skill.
- Gobs, and Halfling can have to 4 double skills.
- A free leader skill for tier 2 and 3 teams.
- Access to inducements (reduced HMC cost) but not the cards (slowing the tournaments too much).
This keeps the Tiers specifics (so at least you're not adding rules that completely change the game), and help a bit the lower tiers. For sure the winners will be tier 1 teams, but if a good player is playing a tier 2 team for fun, he can still contribute to his team success. |
Last edited by Lizardcore on Jan 10, 2012 - 07:32 AM; edited 2 times in total
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daloonieshaman |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 09, 2012 - 03:59 PM
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Joined: Feb 28, 2003
United States of America
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Location: United States of America
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Quote: Something that is never done is to allow skill purchase with team creation money, as it completely screws up the balance that have been achievec by adjusting player/reroll costs since LRB 3.0.
yea this has been done, I do not know how much it had changed and there were limits (50K per player) |
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Doubleskulls |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 10, 2012 - 06:01 AM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Mar 05, 2003
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Posts: 2627
Location: Kent, UK
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All tournament formats favour some races over others. There is no balance that applies to tournaments that you innately screw up by allowing skills to be purchased.
Most Australian tournaments give purchasing of skills from the initial money and they seem to give pretty similar results to those that don't. |
_________________
Ian 'Double Skulls' Williams
SLOBB
NAF Racial Results
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Daggers |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 10, 2012 - 07:10 AM
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Joined: Dec 07, 2006
Canada
Posts: 1618
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
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I am with Doubleskulls, I really don't think it alters that much the balance of certain teams. I mean good coaches know how to play certain teams, and play against certain teams. All this talk keeps me thinking that there is a coach playing this team, and HIS skills dictates more the outcome then skills.
But yes, certain teams will always benefit from different Tourament team creations. Really in the end, simpler is probably better. |
_________________
Stunty Champion: Golden Sweetbun I-V , Canadian Open 2014-2015, Brewhouse Bowl 2015 (all with the EPIC IRON CHEFS)
Check out NAFCANADA.ca for the latest tournaments in Canada.
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