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Purplegoo |
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Post subject:
 Posted: Jan 26, 2012 - 10:21 AM
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Joined: Jan 14, 2008
England
Posts: 493
Location: England
Status: Offline
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I probably mentioned this when the idea was initially tabled (so I’ll keep this short as to not repeat myself too much), but I’m not at all sure there’s a space for this event.
It would eat into World Cup budgets and appetite (making that event less special and / or attendable), and we already have Eurobowl three times every four years. I think if there really is a need (and I’m not sure at all there is; otherwise the result of the Presidential election may well have been different since this was part of what Pako mentioned at the time – if it was a 'must have', he’dve surely won?), just make the Europen a team event.
I just don't think we're big enough or pockets are deep enough. |
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Joemanji |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 26, 2012 - 11:32 AM
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Joined: Dec 13, 2003
England
Posts: 298
Location: England
Status: Offline
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There are several existing team tournaments in Europe that do something similar to this already. For example Lutecebowl gets >100 coaches? Let's not reinvent the wheel here. Evolution not revolution.  For example, some of the English guys enjoy team events so much that we decided we wanted to go to more. So what we did was find out where such events were already taking place (Lutece, Rugbowl?, Italy) and decide amongst ourselves to go to one of them. We are going to Lutece this year. If seems extreme to instead create a whole new event involving thousands of hours of discussion and organisation when we can just check the calender.
A Euro Open advertised in the way you are suggesting will definitely affect attendance at the World Cup and Eurobowl. The question is not whether coaches can afford the money, so much as whether they can justify the expense to wives, girlfriends and children. It is a game of toy soldiers at the end of the day.
The bigger issue for me is that holding the World Cup every four years makes it a bit special. If an Australian or American team wanted to come to the Euro Team Open, we'd obviously let them. But then could they justify the expense to do two in four years? Probably not. So they'd pick one, but due to scheduling not the same one. Holding it every four years gives it a "now or never" feeling. Without that, you'll have a lot of the less dedicated coaches going to neither. Instead of one event of 480 coaches you'll have two events of 150 coaches. That won't be the same, it won't have the magic. People will not come from Aus/USA for that, Europeans will not see it as special without them and the World Cup will die.
Back to Eurobowl. Again, could coaches justify the expense of that and the Euro Open in the same year? Not all, definitely not all. Many will choose one or the other. This will affect the attendance of both events. I know I'd choose Eurobowl, it's the best event I have been to buy miles (only the WC was close). Pako obviously has a previously stated agenda to kill Eurobowl, and this would be a good start in that crusade, so well done.
I don't understand this need for extra majors and double-weighted tournaments either. What does it achieve? Obviously some people have a chip on their shoulders about the English having high rankings, and think it is just because of the Blood Bowl. But there is a German major too, and an American and Canadian one. The latter two arguable much weaker in terms of coaching ability, and so easier to pick up points at. (As a point of interest, I've never taken Undead to the Blood Bowl or NAFC, so none of my points are from there). |
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*This post may have been made without the use of a hat.
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 26, 2012 - 11:56 AM
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Joined: Feb 10, 2003
Undisclosed
Posts: 2696
Location: Undisclosed
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| [sarcasm on] What a shocking post from a pro-Lycos NAF staffer. Disgusting! |
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_____ and rankings - that is all
#27 of the "24 club" (due to some dodgy accounting)
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Deathwing |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 26, 2012 - 01:12 PM
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Former President
Joined: Feb 10, 2003
England
Posts: 1289
Location: England
Status: Offline
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I'm a little confused by the reference to the 'Spanish bid'. It infers that this is an event envisaged as per WC, and there will be bids from other locations to host.
What exactly are we discussing here? The NAF to announce the creation of a new NETO tournament at whatever date and go through a bidding process to host? In effect, a smaller scale WC?
If the demand/appetite is there, why not just run the thing?
"Pippy/Lycos/Paul, we think there's enough interest to make a euro WC style event a success and we want to organise and host the inaugural one. Here's our proposed dates/venue/ticket cost, here's our feasibility plan, here's the minimum number we need to attract. Can you help us in terms of official support, tournament name, announcements, dedicated sub-forums etc?"
There was some very vocal criticism of under-estimating the level of interest of the WC. As I said at the time, one of the main reasons I personally voted for Amsterdam was for it's central location and accessibility. I still firmly believe that a less accessible location would have drawn far fewer coaches. (We could have had capacity for 600 and maybe 350-400 attending.)
My point, I suppose, is that in trying to gauge interest level and potential numbers of attendees you have to surely begin with at least a rough framework. For example:
How many would be interested in a NETO event in late 2013 near Barcelona?
I don't think anybody is opposed to the *concept itself*, what needs to be ascertained is the *viability of the concept*. For that I think we need at least a rough dateline and potential venues. |
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 Ex-UK NTO,ex- Senior Tourney Co-Ordinator, ex-VP and ex-President....because Lycos says that new members don't know who I was..
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generaljason |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 26, 2012 - 02:49 PM
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Joined: Dec 04, 2009
British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 439
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Status: Offline
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Joemanji wrote: But there is a German major too, and an American and Canadian one. The latter two arguable much weaker in terms of coaching ability, and so easier to pick up points at.
They have less coaches attending Majors in North America than their European counterparts for sure, but weaker in coaching ability??? |
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Joemanji |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 26, 2012 - 03:35 PM
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Joined: Dec 13, 2003
England
Posts: 298
Location: England
Status: Offline
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| Look at the records of Brits who have traveled to the Chaos Cup. |
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*This post may have been made without the use of a hat.
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Wightlord |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 26, 2012 - 07:06 PM
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Joined: Nov 15, 2003
Posts: 33
Status: Offline
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Joemanji wrote: I've never taken Undead to the Blood Bowl or NAFC, so none of my points are from there).
Didnt you take them to the Bloodbowl in 2009 or 2010 - I remember us discussing the same 12 player 2 re-roll roster we had? Obviously a filthy NAF conspiracy going on if I'm right 
Pako - I'd love to attend an open European team event, has the advantage over the Eurobowl in that its an entirely inclusive event so could be huge! |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 27, 2012 - 12:20 AM
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Joined: Feb 10, 2003
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Posts: 2696
Location: Undisclosed
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| Why not make A Open Team event that runs side-by-side with the Eurobowl (in every 4th year)? That way, nations can still send their national squad, but others can attend the same event. |
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_____ and rankings - that is all
#27 of the "24 club" (due to some dodgy accounting)
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Joemanji |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 27, 2012 - 01:14 AM
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Joined: Dec 13, 2003
England
Posts: 298
Location: England
Status: Offline
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Pako |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 27, 2012 - 01:37 AM
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Joined: Jul 15, 2005
Spain
Posts: 471
Location: Spain
Status: Offline
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Hello,
First of all, I won't go through Joemanji issues to start again with the same business. Man, shut up a while and hear around you. Is quite shocking to hear you about how annoying were elections and see you charging again. Quite inappropriate, spacially from a NAF staff. This issue was discussed with the TD from the very beginning and he had a good feedback about it. As Deathwing pointed out, this is a discussion about how build the tournament, publish the news for potential bids and to explain a little the idea. You could disagree but please, let your personal problems outside this.
In a more general (and constructive way).
- I do think there is an appetite for such event. I don't want to underestimate the potential of team tournaments already running (spanish Dream Teams holds 120 players every year) but certainly Joemanji's point is true: people like team tournaments, and most important, people like the NAF supported tournaments (WC and NAFC). So I think is logical to sum up again the two issues and get a new event.
- As said, I already have no problems with Eurobowl. I had a concern about NAF sanctioning and Eurobowl was just an example of exception that is not desirable in a fair club where all members are equal. As comented, Pippy already solved it in a very smart way. So I guess we could offer a broader topurnament to all NAF members and it will decrease Eurobowl polemics as well.
- To Darkson, about to parallel running of European Open and Eurobowl, I guess then you will substract the players attending the chance to play with others. I guess could be better to schedule both and let the Eurobowl participants to decide if they will come or not to the European Open. You will have, at worst, the same result than running both at the same time (one group playing Eurobowl and others playing European Open) and at the best, most of Eurobowlers will finally come to the European Open. In a general way, the attendance issue will be a problem for the European Open, because the two tournaments that could compete with it (Eurobowl and WC) shouldn't have any problem with it, as they have very committed players attending. Players will play them and European Open, or just them.
- Some of the comments posted supposed that NAF WC will be organized in Europe in the future, I guess other places and continents deserve also the chance to organize Eurobowl. This certainly will increase appetite for the European Open (and also, will decrease polemics about WC location between NAF members).
To me, to have an European Open is to organize a "big brother" of the running team tournaments in Europe. It will be like a major of theam torunaments, and will provide NAF for a nice big event every two years.
Attendance to WC won't be affected at all (IMO) because if you should choose, probably you will get WC instead. But maybe with WC in North America, European Open will be better welcomed then.
I gree with you that to schedule a new tournament will provide some issues to consider, but I truly believe that it will give us more benefits than problems:
- Reduce WC anxiety (maybe 4 years for WC is too much for some players)
- Provide a "major" team tournament
- Supply in some way an alternative to WC when organized outside Europe for people who won't travel to the WC.
- To have a broader range of coaches than Eurobowl (so, reducing Eurobowl concerns about attendance).
- Increase NAF participation and visibility in tournament scene. |
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Ironjaw |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 27, 2012 - 01:51 AM
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Joined: Feb 28, 2006
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Posts: 37
Status: Offline
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Wightlord wrote:
Takes a tier-1-whore to know a tier-1-whore...
Joemanji wrote: but if you think that the European open would be one of the 3/4 tournaments a year you make that is cool
Although tongue-in-cheek, that's not fair (which is rich coming from me, but I'm having a good day). He has a somewhat unique job, a family and still goes to more than me.
You probably don't need defending Wightlord, but today's your lucky day. |
Last edited by Ironjaw on Jan 27, 2012 - 02:01 AM; edited 2 times in total
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Purplegoo |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 27, 2012 - 01:58 AM
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Joined: Jan 14, 2008
England
Posts: 493
Location: England
Status: Offline
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'Shut up a while and hear around you'.
I find this to be an interesting turn of phrase. I’m in no way trying to be difficult for the sake of being difficult, but this is one of a number of ideas you had. You were disagreed with, debate ensued. You were asked to represent your ideas in an election (by myself and others). Said ideas weren’t voted for in nearly enough volume to give you a mandate to lead.Â
This event you have such faith in didn’t garner you many votes. It’s managed a couple of pages in the forum so far (and many, many nations are conspicuous by their absence), whereas a smash hit would surely have set even this place on fire.Â
I’m not saying ‘Pako is no longer allowed to have ideas’. I’m not saying ‘All of Pako’s manifesto was rubbish, and let’s not discuss any of it ever again’. What I am saying is perhaps it’s time for everyone to follow your advice there, even you. How, despite signs to the contrary in both chat and votes, you still push this idea as if it’s a no brainer and (again – this is more than likely a language issue, no harm to you) appear dismissive of any view to the contrary I’m really not sure.Â
You’ve had an idea. Initial reception was luke warm. It didn’t win you an election. I think your stance should be less ‘This is brilliant, obvious, and I don’t agree with any of your concerns’ and more ‘What do we think of this, can we improve it, is it viable’.  You make numerous assumptions regarding what people would do, perhaps ask them instead? I for one am a Eurobowler that wouldn't attend this as a matter if course, as you seem to surmise.
Whilst Joe's style may appear abrasive in text; you have to at least consider he's right, considering the evidence around you. |
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Joemanji |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 27, 2012 - 02:28 AM
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Joined: Dec 13, 2003
England
Posts: 298
Location: England
Status: Offline
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Pako wrote: First of all, I won't go through Joemanji issues to start again with the same business. Man, shut up a while and hear around you. Is quite shocking to hear you about how annoying were elections and see you charging again. Quite inappropriate, spacially from a NAF staff. Yet again, somebody disagrees with you and you attempt to silence them with smear tactics, as you did all through the election and in the year leading up to it. Dirty tactics for the win eh? |
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Doubleskulls |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 27, 2012 - 02:51 AM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Mar 05, 2003
Undisclosed
Posts: 2627
Location: Kent, UK
Status: Offline
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Purplegoo wrote: It would eat into World Cup budgets and appetite (making that event less special and / or attendable), and we already have Eurobowl three times every four years. I think if there really is a need (and I’m not sure at all there is; otherwise the result of the Presidential election may well have been different since this was part of what Pako mentioned at the time – if it was a 'must have', he’dve surely won?), just make the Europen a team event.
I just don't think we're big enough or pockets are deep enough.
No one forces anyone to go to any tournament right, so we all make decisions about spending our time and money where we hope we'll get the biggest benefit. Given there are more tournaments than even Lycos can attend we all make choices every week about where to go and where not to. One more tournament doesn't affect that process. All it would effect is the choices about which tournaments to make. So I think your argument boils down to "I can't go to another tournament so you can't hold it".
I can't imagine many people picking a European Open over the World Cup, can you? So I can't actually see this hurting the World Cup at all. For those lucky enough to go to EuroBowl I can't see many of them thinking the European Open is a more prestigious event and not going to EuroBowl, or if they do I'm sure most national teams are heavily oversubscribed so EuroBowl attendance won't be affected. |
_________________
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SLOBB
NAF Racial Results
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generaljason |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 27, 2012 - 02:58 AM
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Joined: Dec 04, 2009
British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 439
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Status: Offline
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Joemanji wrote: But there is a German major too, and an American and Canadian one. The latter two arguable much weaker in terms of coaching ability, and so easier to pick up points at.
generaljason wrote: They have less coaches attending Majors in North America than their European counterparts for sure, but weaker in coaching ability???
Joemanji wrote: Look at the records of Brits who have traveled to the Chaos Cup.
Yeah well I wasn't at any of those Chaos Cups.
Say what you want about Chaos, but no European has even won the Spike! though a few have tried. 7 Canadian victors and 1 American. Maybe you guys need to come over and show us how it's done.
Gj. |
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