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Doubleskulls |
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Post subject:
 Posted: Jan 28, 2012 - 03:37 PM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Mar 05, 2003
Undisclosed
Posts: 2627
Location: Kent, UK
Status: Offline
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Volstagg wrote: What about equal K value for ALL tournaments? Wouldn't that be easier than increasing the number of Majors or turning some tournaments into Major Tournaments?
Isn't the extra K value the last thing you think about, when you are considering to attend a Tourney?
I think some people think an increased K value does attract more coaches, particularly international ones. I think tournaments with an elevated K value are just considered more prestigious anyway so attract more coaches. There would probably be an equivalent effect with better prize support or something else.
Flat K might work, I haven't done any modelling on it though. I suspect the best answer to reduce the importance of frequency of play is a higher K value all round. Higher K values mean you are playing for more points every game, so recent form becomes more important and slowly building up ranking harder. Although I'm not even sure the principle that Deathwing & I worked on still stands. |
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Ian 'Double Skulls' Williams
SLOBB
NAF Racial Results
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Doubleskulls |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 28, 2012 - 03:43 PM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Mar 05, 2003
Undisclosed
Posts: 2627
Location: Kent, UK
Status: Offline
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| Just checked and USA/Canada only had about 4 non-major tournaments in 2011 that hit the cap, and Australia and 3. That makes a flat K (or at least a lower cap) seem like a good approach, probably combined with a higher K value. |
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Ian 'Double Skulls' Williams
SLOBB
NAF Racial Results
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Doubleskulls |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 28, 2012 - 03:44 PM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Mar 05, 2003
Undisclosed
Posts: 2627
Location: Kent, UK
Status: Offline
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We could also fix the rankings to make the formula more accurately reflect the importance of ranking whilst we are at it  Currently the formula underestimates the importance of ranking differential for winning - its a about a 1/3 more significant than estimated. |
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Ian 'Double Skulls' Williams
SLOBB
NAF Racial Results
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Deathwing |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 28, 2012 - 06:32 PM
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Former President
Joined: Feb 10, 2003
England
Posts: 1289
Location: England
Status: Offline
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| Just a quick point ( because I have been out drinking tonight!)...let's not get sidetracked by k-values/rankings/majors....it has little to do with the subject in hand.... |
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 Ex-UK NTO,ex- Senior Tourney Co-Ordinator, ex-VP and ex-President....because Lycos says that new members don't know who I was..
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Sebco |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 29, 2012 - 06:25 AM
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Joined: Dec 03, 2004
France
Posts: 466
Location: France
Status: Offline
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Pako wrote:
1- I think is objective data that people don't travel so much outside their country to play a team tournament actually.
2- This is also objective to say that WC was an exception to 1-
3- I guess some people (probably lots of) could manage to travel to an international tournament every two years.
4- It is also true that Eurobowl is already an international European tournament. (agre with you)
5- Regarding 4-, Eurobowl is indeed involving a small % of European NAF players
I would say I agree more or less with these 5 sentences, Pako. That said, I'm not sure I'm with you about the solution.
WC is an exception to 1- because it is rare (every 4 years) and there's no other big tournament like that with so many nations represented and so many coaches. 4 years is not so much for a so exceptionnal event. In my mind, it only can be too much when you can't attend 1 and so have to wait 8 years.
In my opinion, organising a World Cup bis (even if called eurosomething) would make these 2 World Cups (the real one and the bis) less rare and less exceptionnal.
If we want some more coaches to attend tourneys in other countries, a solution could be to give more attention to the majors, as it has already been suggested in this topic. I would say there will have 6-7 french coachs at Blood Bowl tournament (well, NAF championship...) in 2012 and no french coach at Dungeon Bowl in 2012 (I don't even know if some french coaches already attend to Dungeon Bowl). This surely could be improved.  |
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NAF Membership Director + France NC
Bowl des Neiges XIX : 2022 february 26th & 27th
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Pako |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 30, 2012 - 12:55 AM
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Joined: Jul 15, 2005
Spain
Posts: 471
Location: Spain
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I think your points could be right also, Sebco. but as Grumbledook's pointed out, there is no way to include all the coaches interested into the Eurobowl, even enhancing democracy in team selection, we have the numbers issue.
Then you could improve the majors attendance, but in fact they will remain individual, and we all agree people became more motivated and spend more effort to travel to team tournaments.
And finally the third one is to dillucidate if an European Open will substract interest to the WC. This third point is impossible to clarify. We still don't know if two years between those tourneys will affect or not the WC. I do think 4 years is too much, people starts and ends a "bloodbowl career" between those 4 years (I did see it) so maybe two will be fine. Moreover, you are always supposing WC will stay in Europe forever? I think a WC outside Europe will be desirable, and then the European Open will fill the gap for the people that are not going to travel outside the continent.
As said, I do agree with you on this, and the major concern to me is also to dilute WC attendance. But my different point of view is that we still don't know if it will happen or not. |
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Indigo |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 30, 2012 - 02:35 AM
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Da Warboss
Joined: Feb 12, 2003
England
Posts: 2168
Location: England
Status: Offline
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Pako, maybe take a step back and think about it
Logically if you have a "Euro Team Tournament" that's held every 2 years between the NAFWC and countries from outside Europe wish to attend, you must oblige them - otherwise it's not NAF sanctioned which is defeating the objective. Hosting the NAFWC every 4 years gives everyone the chance to plan ahead and for those outside the continent it's going to be held at, a chance to save up the money needed. If you host a tournament two years later that does exactly the same thing you will split attendance between each event and the overall effect of both is diminished.
I fail to see why there are already outstanding team tournaments being held in Europe that you seem to suggest are incapable of meeting the need for a "euro team tournament". What is wrong with Lettuce, for example?
Wanting "more of a good thing" is a great attitude to have but you seem to be blinded to your own ulterior motives here, ignoring good advice and good tournaments that already exist. It's a GREAT idea to have a team tournament in europe anyone can attend! Nice one! Except it's already happening, successfully - why can't you support the existing efforts? Simply saying "Lettuce might not be able to expand big enough" does not mean "therefore it's an invalid option" - why don't you promote and support one of the existing tournaments? |
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NAF #60
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Indigo |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 30, 2012 - 03:01 AM
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Da Warboss
Joined: Feb 12, 2003
England
Posts: 2168
Location: England
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Let's put this another way. I went for a cup of coffee only to turn around and come back to post again, all to try to make the point clearer.
Wanting to host a tournament is great and should be encouraged, with the advice of others on the tournament scene. An all inclusive european "large scale" event (can't use the word major event for obvious reasons) is a lovely idea.
What people are trying to tell you is that
a) trying to get it to be the main NAF euro team event would detract from the NAFWC. The NAF cannot and should not start running tournaments everywhere - it's there to support the players & their tournaments not become the only kid on the block who can run tournaments. Adding more NAF events would choke the calendar, potentially kill off smaller events doing the same thing and dilute the tournament scene. When the "big kid" starts running events, people generally want to be involved so the NAF has to be exceedingly careful as to what it does so as not to damage the scene as a whole. Or, put another way - it's here to support tournaments, not own them.
b) there already are multiple European team tournament events. Does this mean you shouldn't bother trying to run one? No. Does this mean that yours is more likely to be smaller and certainly less "important" than you hope because people are more likely to attend the events that they already know and love? Yes.
So in a nutshell, people aren't criticising the idea because the idea is already tried and tested and in action. My suspicion is they are criticising the delivery. The way you post your thoughts and ideas doesn't help - to be honest you DO ignore any advice that goes against your vision and hold up supporting arguments as though delivered from heaven! Also, considering that you have very publically criticised the NAF, Eurobowl, NAF staff etc. in the past, as well as your very public remarks after being unfortunate enough to miss out on the NAFWC all combine to suggest you have ulterior motives behind this.
Whether this is true or not - only you really know. But you have to at least acknowledge that because of what you have said and done in the past, this is what people PERCEIVE, and public perception matters a lot - it's what will make your ideas succeed or fail. |
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NAF #60
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Doubleskulls |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 30, 2012 - 03:18 AM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Mar 05, 2003
Undisclosed
Posts: 2627
Location: Kent, UK
Status: Offline
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Indigo wrote: Logically if you have a "Euro Team Tournament" that's held every 2 years between the NAFWC and countries from outside Europe wish to attend, you must oblige them - otherwise it's not NAF sanctioned which is defeating the objective.
I agree. In practice you can't stop it since an Aussie team could say they represent Malta or something. You couldn't restrict attendance based on nationality.
Indigo wrote: If you host a tournament two years later that does exactly the same thing you will split attendance between each event and the overall effect of both is diminished.
If it were "tournament A" and "tournament B" you'd have a point, but one is a World Cup, and one isn't. An open European team competition is clearly a junior tournament so I think people who have to make a choice will overwhelming prefer the prestige of a World Cup.
Indigo wrote: I fail to see why there are already outstanding team tournaments being held in Europe that you seem to suggest are incapable of meeting the need for a "euro team tournament". What is wrong with Lettuce, for example?
I *think* Pako is arguing that if we did have bidding it should be open to new tournaments as well as existing tournaments to compete to host (which I think is reasonable).
Generally, I just don't agree that having more tournaments is a bad thing. There is saturation, and people will attend based on where they think they'll get the most enjoyment. People make these choices all the time about how much time and money they want to spend on their hobby - but they are already doing so, so adding another tournament into the mix makes no meaningful difference. |
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Ian 'Double Skulls' Williams
SLOBB
NAF Racial Results
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Pako |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 30, 2012 - 04:05 AM
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Joined: Jul 15, 2005
Spain
Posts: 471
Location: Spain
Status: Offline
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Quote: The way you post your thoughts and ideas doesn't help - to be honest you DO ignore any advice that goes against your vision and hold up supporting arguments as though delivered from heaven!
Well, to be honest, if the advice against the idea is "you shouldn't do that" it is certainly difficult to include them. I do hear about existing tournaments hosting the European Open, and I think is worthy. But also I think people who are not running team tournaments could bid for. On the other hand, people organizing Dream Teams Cup wouldn't be involved on this, so we should take into account the possibility of that organizers of present team tournaments won't be involved but attending to this.
As commented, here we have just a small number of points of view. More input will be welcome. In the spanish forum the idea had a massive support (I know, I know, I only talk from my point of view...) and the only negative comments it had come from the Eurobowl players.
About this, and about my image here. I did criticize many things about NAF. But I also think I never lose the personal respect that is needed for posting them, I think is worthy to disagree (and even strongly disagree) without entering in insult, or personal discredit. Sadly, others could not say the same, and their image are still inpolute. So sorry but I think here we are discussing about ideas, and although you could take into account my image, but then take into account the image of Joemanji as NAF Staff actively discrediting me with no other than falsehoods cooked in his mind.
So I decided to pass through but we could consider these type of things, but please, consider them for all us.
Related with the important discussion here, as said most criticisms come from usual Eurobowl players. Again I think is worthy but if their only advice is to close this initiative I also could doubt about their personal interest on it other than in Bloodbowl community.
But I won't do that. I only want to point out that the main point against this idea is that Eurobowl and WC are going to shrink because diluting the events. I am sorry but any point of view on that is subjective, which it means we are in a endless discussion.
We will set up a poll instead, but unfortunately NAF website is underused, so if it is representative could be doubt. We could wait to the NAF TOs to get the feedback from the players and then have an idea about interest, but in this particular case (and taking advantadge about image created) probably no one in UK will attend the European Open, if Joemanji is the man collecting this feedback |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 30, 2012 - 04:36 AM
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Joined: Feb 10, 2003
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Posts: 2696
Location: Undisclosed
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Nice to see you're still playing the"wronged victim" card, but then end your post with a personal insult (but used a smiley, so it's "fine").
You also say that most of the critism is from Eurobowl players. Can you list who those players are? |
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#27 of the "24 club" (due to some dodgy accounting)
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Pako |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 30, 2012 - 05:19 AM
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Joined: Jul 15, 2005
Spain
Posts: 471
Location: Spain
Status: Offline
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This is called irony... it is like hear the person who haven't any problem in publicly insult me that note I am playing any victim card. So don't enter here, we will meet personally and then we will discuss about it for sure, Darkson.
God... 
@ Others. I am really sorry about it. I promised myself to never will go into discussion with those two...
About the question, I know Joemanji usually plays in Team England. Kewan also was quite critic with and usually plays for Spanish Team. I know you probably don't play Eurobowl, but I know you are absolutely in disagree with all my ideas, probably you are on disagree on my mere existence but any case.
I know also that some Eurobowl players are fine with the idea of an European Open. Let the exam pass, please. |
Last edited by Pako on Jan 30, 2012 - 05:29 AM; edited 1 time in total
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Kewan |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 30, 2012 - 05:27 AM
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Joined: Sep 13, 2005
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Hi Everybody
I'm the captain of the Spanish team who played Eurobowl last year, and I want to tell you several things.
1º Pakulkan, one of my best friends, and a guy really respected at the spanish forum, not here. He is trying to change NAF as organization, probably his way is not the best, I'm not agree with some of his ideas, but I've read some comments really unpleasant, as he want to destroy Eurobowl, or something like this, or he was cheating during NAF president election, no sense for me. Please, trust in me, he want to help NAF as organization, that is his thinking and he doesn't want anything else. He has his own point of view, and it's quite stubborn, but that's it.
2º Pakulkan and the WC. Several spanish coaches talked with him, because we thought it was unfair that his team, LBN, didn't play the WC, and he must be there, but we also thought his way of telling that things, wasn't the best. Here, in this forum, people think that's the "revenge" for that WC incident, and you're wrong. Probably if Pakulkan had played the WC, we didn't speak about Euronaf, or he didn't put himself forward as a candidate for NAF the president, but when he decided to do that, it's not for a nonsense revenge, it's because he really thinks he can do it better, than actual staff.
(I don't think like him, I prefer Lycos)
3º EuroNAF. Euronaf or Eurobowl or eurowhatever... I think there is one tournament for european players, that's Eurobowl. While we've different sistems of choosing the teams, Eurobowl must be a no-naf event. I'll play Eurobowl every time possible for me, because it's my favourite tournament, but another tournament called Euronaf it's not necessary.
I understand players who ask for the celebration of this tournament, but I'm not agree with them, because devalue Eurobowl, and I repeat, it's my favourite tourney, and I'll play as NAF sanctioned or not ¿that's important? not for me
4º I don't speak english, only a few times, so writting less times, if I did some mistakes, you know, I'm spanish |
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Pako |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 30, 2012 - 05:37 AM
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Joined: Jul 15, 2005
Spain
Posts: 471
Location: Spain
Status: Offline
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Thank you Kewan. I appreciate that.
Just point out one issue
Quote: Probably if Pakulkan had played the WC, we didn't speak about Euronaf, or he didn't put himself forward as a candidate for NAF the president
We talked about it before. I was making critics to the NAF management far before the WC places were sorted. It is posted so I could say I presented myself because I had concerns other than WC and before WC and that this European Open concept is not also related to.
I do think if most Eurobowl players like you or Joemanji will give it the priority, no event could then devaluate Eurobowl.
On the other hand, your comments suggest that Spanish Team selection will remain as was in the past, so this will imply less people could attend to. I should disagree with you then that an Open European Team Tournament is not necessary. |
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longfang |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 30, 2012 - 06:33 AM
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Joined: Feb 12, 2003
Posts: 189
Status: Offline
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@ darkson. Please stop with the bitching!
If I was still an active tourney player I would very much be interested in an open European team tourney which, (and let's all be honest, no matter how you select teams for Eurobowl because its limited to 1 team per country) there isn't. So perhaps we should not even consider Eurobowl in this discussion. A 4 player per team event with no restriction on being all one nationality gets my interest. |
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