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Daggers |
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Post subject: Races by tiers
 Posted: Nov 21, 2012 - 11:14 AM
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Joined: Dec 07, 2006
Canada
Posts: 1618
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
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Ok, so I have had this discussion with people, but wanted to get a majority opinion on what is generally accepted.
What are the race breakdown by tier. I searched the web, but the results that came back were varied and I was suprised at some of the races per tier. I realize this is all up to interpretation, but just wanted to see what the breakdown was. Also, I realize the coach has alot to do with it (hell, I love playing halflings and can win more than I lose with them), but I am looking at the average. This is what I could piece together.
Tier 1:
Wood Elf, Dwarf, Orc, Undead, Skaven
Tier 2:
All the rest
Tier 3:
Ogres, Halflings, Goblins, Vampires, Chaos Pact, Underworld |
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dode74 |
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Post subject: RE: Races by tiers
Posted: Nov 21, 2012 - 12:03 PM
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Joined: Jan 03, 2012
Posts: 102
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3 Tier 1.5 (50% to 40%) - Chaos Pact, Slann, Underworld
1 Tier 2 (45% to 35%) - Vampire
3 Tier 3 (35% to 30%) - Ogre, Goblin, Halfling
Everyone else is Tier 1.
From here. |
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Daggers |
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Post subject: RE: Races by tiers
Posted: Nov 21, 2012 - 12:40 PM
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Joined: Dec 07, 2006
Canada
Posts: 1618
Location: Canada
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Wow, thanks, that one made some decent sense (all the pointless other drabble was humorous to read, whoever Jimmy Fantastic is). I like that most teams are tier 1, so only 7 teams are not considered tier 1. That works for me.
Thanks dode74, much appreciated. |
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babass |
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Post subject: RE: Races by tiers
Posted: Nov 22, 2012 - 05:58 AM
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Joined: Nov 29, 2010
Undisclosed
Posts: 68
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i think, i always see this tiers in tourneys:
Quote: Tier 1 Teams Amazons, Chaos Dwarves, Dark Elves, Dwarves, Lizardmen, Necromantic, Norse, Orcs, Skaven, Undead, Wood Elves
Tier 2 Teams Chaos, Chaos Pact, Elves, High Elves, Humans, Khemri, Nurgle, Slann
Tier 3 Teams Goblins, Halflings, Ogres, Vampires, Underworld |
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Daggers |
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Post subject: RE: Races by tiers
Posted: Nov 22, 2012 - 10:57 AM
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Joined: Dec 07, 2006
Canada
Posts: 1618
Location: Canada
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| Thanks, interesting. The second one has more tier 2 teams than the first. Think I opened up a can of worms. thanks for the info. |
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Elyoukey |
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Post subject: RE: Races by tiers
Posted: Nov 23, 2012 - 03:15 AM
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Joined: Nov 28, 2006
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| also you should consider the format in which you calculate this %. At low TV, some rosters are more owerfull (amazon dwarf for exemple) while at high TR a chaos team or chaos pact can be almost unbeatable . |
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dode74 |
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Post subject: RE: Races by tiers
Posted: Nov 23, 2012 - 03:38 AM
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Joined: Jan 03, 2012
Posts: 102
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| I think you'd be surprised by the data - Chaos and Pact aren't "almost unbeatable" at high TV by any stretch - in fact, at high TV the 4 elven teams and Skaven are better: http://www.cmanu.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/bb/stats/stats.html Those stats were put together by Koadah at FUMBBL using FUMBBL Blackbox data. I know TV-matching isn't the way things are "normally" done, but tournaments are low-TV matches, are they not? Because if it's low TV you're interested in then sub-1400 it's Zons, Lizards and Undead you could consider as slightly better than other teams based on that data. |
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Daggers |
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Post subject: RE: Races by tiers
Posted: Nov 23, 2012 - 07:34 AM
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Joined: Dec 07, 2006
Canada
Posts: 1618
Location: Canada
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| Wow, that link is cool. It really is amazing to see how some races improve/weaken as the TV goes up. Although I find it humorous that the bottom four races basically never change, and my beloved halflings are not the worst race out there. Have to keep that link for future reference. Thanks dode74 |
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Jonny_P |
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Post subject: Re: RE: Races by tiers
Posted: Nov 23, 2012 - 07:49 AM
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Joined: Feb 10, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 901
Location: United States of America
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babass wrote: i think, i always see this tiers in tourneys:
Quote: Tier 1 Teams Amazons, Chaos Dwarves, Dark Elves, Dwarves, Lizardmen, Necromantic, Norse, Orcs, Skaven, Undead, Wood Elves
Tier 2 Teams Chaos, Chaos Pact, Elves, High Elves, Humans, Khemri, Nurgle, Slann
Tier 3 Teams Goblins, Halflings, Ogres, Vampires, Underworld
When speaking of tournaments, it ALL depends on the rules pack IMO.
Chaos Pact, High Elves, and Humans can all do pretty well with a lot of skills and more than one skill per player added.
But let's say the tournament only allows a certain skill to be taken up to 2 times....so a Lizard team with only two Block Saurus, or Dwarf team with only two Guard Blockers are just not as good as a rules pack with more liberal skill choices. |
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Daggers |
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Races by tiers
Posted: Nov 23, 2012 - 10:07 AM
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Joined: Dec 07, 2006
Canada
Posts: 1618
Location: Canada
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That I know, but I was just trying to get a general overview. We are trying something different this year for CCKO, with skills packs instead of skill purchasing, 1 skill per player, and the 0-2 skill limit per team (so no spamming Guard). I know it slows down teams like Orc, Dwarf and Amazon, but we are testing out this to see we can coax afew lower tier teams out to tournaments.
Anyways, just trying to do something a little different team build wise, in hopes of getting a better variety of teams. We shall see. |
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blammaham |
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Races by tiers
Posted: Nov 23, 2012 - 01:41 PM
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Joined: Sep 20, 2009
Canada
Posts: 202
Location: Canada
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| Almost universally now, we use a skill limit in our rule packs for our tournaments and while it does affect some teams more than others, I have still seen tier one teams like Dwarfs and Lizards still do very well at some events. I'm not sure that most skill packs actually change the tiers, the good races are still good and the challenging ones still are just that. At least that's what I have found in the small sample size of the tournaments out here. S. |
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Daggers |
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Races by tiers
Posted: Nov 23, 2012 - 02:38 PM
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Joined: Dec 07, 2006
Canada
Posts: 1618
Location: Canada
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| I think this is more to bridge the gap, but yes, strong teams will ALWAYS do well. I mean Dwarves still have AV9 and Block/Tackle everywhere. Its not like they are going to get creamed by trying to give other teams afew more incentives. I think this concept just makes other teams more playable. In resurrection tournaments, its takes away the bonuses of agile teams for example, because they can't accumulate those skills faster. I play various elf teams in league, because I know in an 8 games I will get twice as many skills as most of the other coaches. But in tournaments, that is nullified. This is why I am trying this system out in my own tournament. I want to get afew tournaments of this in and really see if it helps or not. But except for afew coaches who are really good with many teams, most coaches will still have a hard time with a tier 2 or 3 team against a tier 1 team in a tournament where they both have the same limitations of skills and such. This is just more of an experiment to see if there is a way to bridge that great divide between the normally strong races, and the slightly strong races. I also want to make sure not to miss some weird combination where one strong team gets a weird advantage and becomes even more powerful. |
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kikurasis |
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Races by tiers
Posted: Nov 23, 2012 - 03:04 PM
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Joined: Jan 05, 2011
Canada
Posts: 42
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
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| If you are trying to bridge the tier gap, I'd suggest running something with the NTBB house rule set. Plasmid has a group of house rules that seem to do just what they are supposed to -- bring the lower tier teams up a bit and the higher tier ones down a tad. The teams are still tiered the same, but are a bit closer so that people actually have a chance with the lower tiers and the higher ones aren't the same ones that win all the time. |
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Jonny_P |
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Races by tiers
Posted: Nov 23, 2012 - 07:15 PM
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Joined: Feb 10, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 901
Location: United States of America
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If you want an eye-opening stats in regards to races and skill options.
Chaos Cup had 80 coaches. Not a single Lizardman team. We had a limit of only two of a certain skill.
ZlurpeeBowl had 60 coaches. 7 Lizardman teams. No limit to how many of a certain skill can be taken. |
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generaljason |
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Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Races by tiers
Posted: Nov 29, 2012 - 06:03 AM
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Joined: Dec 04, 2009
British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 439
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Status: Offline
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Dwarfrunner wrote: That I know, but I was just trying to get a general overview. We are trying something different this year for CCKO, with skills packs instead of skill purchasing, 1 skill per player, and the 0-2 skill limit per team (so no spamming Guard).
+1. No spamming Guard imho. No offence meant to those who like it. Iron Mike's tournament played that way and I had a blast in Spokane.
Dwarfrunner wrote:
I know it slows down teams like Orc, Dwarf and Amazon, but we are testing out this to see we can coax a few lower tier teams out to tournaments.
On top of getting rid of spamming Guard, we found that it encouraged variety in our experience. Travis (Frostitute) from Oregon went 5th at Spike! this year with an Underworld team. Tony (Redman) came second to Kaare with a Chaos team.
Dwarfrunner wrote:
Anyways, just trying to do something a little different team build wise, in hopes of getting a better variety of teams. We shall see.
We had 19/24 races represented at Spike this year. Not a lot of tier 2 in multiples; Humans and Orcs were represented the most. Any rule set people are still going to play to win, but I find that the 0-2 limit on same skill picks at minimum adds variety to the builds that you see on teams, and yeah no spam Guard. The opposite I find overly favours bash teams. Just my opinion. I like playing in tournaments either way.
Looking forward to hearing your feedback on those rules come January. 
Cheers,
Gj.
Off topic: check out this thread in our forum and see if it's accurate Mark. You'd know more about the tournaments back East then I would - all the info I didn't know I got from the NAF site:
http://www.thunderbowl.ca/forum/index.php/topic,1948.0.html |
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