| Author |
Message |
Hoshi_Komi |
|
Post subject:
 Posted: Nov 14, 2005 - 12:36 PM
|
|
Joined: Nov 23, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 550
Location: United States of America
Status: Offline
|
|
avatar666 wrote:
I was only making a point, not ripping on you. My point being even if they changed the date doesn't gurantee that you (or anyone else) could make it then. You can not cater to everyone for an event - a date should be made and you go with it. True, I don't get to travel as much as I'd like to attend all these other tourneys farther away due to family reasons.I don't have the resume of NAF games you have played, but I attend what I can and am happy with that. I'm not out to win any popularity awards.
I am not trying to win popularity award either. My point is that if you want people to travel to the CC to make it better you have to consider the people who are willing to travel to the event and willing to shell out the $300+ to make it happen. A $5 refund on bringing a buddy won't bring these people. Scheduling it when travel is easier on the demands will.
I posted my tourney listing more to show that I know what it takes to travel the long distances to make it to a tourney and what it costs. I've been blessed the last couple of years to have the time and money to do what I want. But I also read on the boards that others think the US Majors are a joke and that if you want to win/get an award just make the trip over. I think the quality of US coaches is just fine and that we could defend our titles.
And I am not asking to cater to MY schedule or anyone else's specifically. I am asking that it be scheduled when MosT people can make it to the tourney. If it's November...it's November...but if it's not...then reschedule it. |
Last edited by Hoshi_Komi on Nov 14, 2005 - 12:42 PM; edited 1 time in total
|
| |
|
|
|
 |
|
Hoshi_Komi |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Nov 14, 2005 - 12:37 PM
|
|
Joined: Nov 23, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 550
Location: United States of America
Status: Offline
|
|
Alkaline13 wrote: Sometimes the truth hurts.
I see no truth in your posts. Just blind ignorance. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
SolarFlare |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Nov 14, 2005 - 01:27 PM
|
|
Joined: Nov 24, 2004
Posts: 199
Status: Offline
|
|
IF we are looking at changing the time or location of the event, it seems to me the Chicago Battle Bunker should be consulted since they have stated that they are committed to supporting the event (and supplying the fantastic prizes that were mentioned before).
Regardless of the time of year, there will be some conflicts for some people. It does not make sense to have the Chaos Cup compete with the major US conventions (GenCon and Origins) for attendance. It could make sense to have the Chaos Cup at Origins (which I know would draw 3 new players right away). But, the people who are committed to running the event (Tom and Chicago GW) should absolutely first be considered.
If Europeans think our tourneys are a "joke," then they can stay away. Sure, Wolfgang has done well at GenCon, and another European won Chaos Cup a few years back, but we can play just fine without them. (There is no need to get into bashing players from other countries here. I have definitely enjoyed hanging out with the guys who have made the trip.) As I understand it, GenCon and Chaos Cup (both with European players) were both won by American coaches this year.
Finally, the tone of the recent posts is pathetic. Ken's tone is, at best condescending, and, in truth, offensive. (It is surprising to see that coming from one of the best players in the U.S.) And the out-right name-calling is completely unnecessary. If you can't post in a civil manner, find something better to do, please. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Rune_Master |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Nov 14, 2005 - 02:30 PM
|
|
Joined: Apr 02, 2005
Posts: 196
Status: Offline
|
|
I know I am a newbie (and more than a little hesitant to jump in the middle of this firestorm, or should I say flame-storm), but why not hold the CC in different locations each year? Why not just change the name of the TKC or the Brouhaha or the Phracus to the CC for that particular year? I mean, the fluff supports the idea that the CC is held at random times and at random places, hence the association with the word CHAOS.
Just my two cents... |
_________________
Erik Grogswiller
"Ho! stand to your flagons steady!
'Tis all we have left to prize.
A drink to the dead already,--
Hurrah for the next that dies."
- ancient Dwarf toast
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
GalakStarscraper |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Nov 14, 2005 - 03:02 PM
|
|
Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 1562
Status: Offline
|
|
Rune_Master wrote: I know I am a newbie (and more than a little hesitant to jump in the middle of this firestorm, or should I say flame-storm), but why not hold the CC in different locations each year? Why not just change the name of the TKC or the Brouhaha or the Phracus to the CC for that particular year? I mean, the fluff supports the idea that the CC is held at random times and at random places, hence the association with the word CHAOS.
Just my two cents... Because GW-Chicago has spent over $5,000 on permanent fixtures to hold the Chaos Cup and to be honest it is their tournament to run. You cannot move the Chaos Cup because that tournament is the property currently of GW-Chicago.
And Ken I will completely disagree on one of your points ... call it ego if you will. A tournament is only as good as its organizer. The Chaos Cup might be able to run if Majortusk took over, but the bottom line is that it takes a good tournament organizer to run a successful event that is well thought of (see avatar666's comments about the last year you came).
I'm not convinced I can just step away from the Chaos Cup and everything will be as jim dandy as you suggest.
As for having it in mid-July and begin fine with GenCon ... no thanks. I already give up one entire week in August of my summer to prepare for GenCon and I don't get home from Summer vacation with my family until just after the 4th of July. I'm not sure I could even get permission from my wife to go to Blood Bowl tournaments one month apart.
Also Ken, the first year the touranment was held had a lot going for it. 1st Chaos Cup and JJ was attending ... that was a big draw by itself and even with that ... NAF attendance in 2003 was 22 player vs the 18 we had in 2005 ... and that 18 was big improvement on the 14 NAF members from last year's Chaos Cup that you attended.
And the bottom line here is Ken that GW-Chicago said they really would rather have this tournament in November it works well for them. They are willing to stick with 2 day 5 game schedules and to give great prize support. Also like it or not Ken ... the Chaos Cup is still on the 4th largest tournament in the US ... the demographics of the US are a rough crowd to work with.
The real question for the Chaos Cup is what it would take to bring the Canadians down. In all reality as I see it, this is the single biggest factor to increasing the size of the Chaos Cup.
Galak |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
GalakStarscraper |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Nov 14, 2005 - 03:34 PM
|
|
Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 1562
Status: Offline
|
|
Okay .. a 2nd response.
1) Lay off Ken please. He is a passionate BB player that really does want the Chaos Cup to succeed. His posts are aimed at that more than anything.
2) I think we are working under a basic false assumption on what we can get for attendance.
The GenCon Bowl and Chaos Cup have been run for the same number of years. Let's look at Total Attendance and NAF attendance for both:
GenCon:
2003 - 60 coaches (48 NAF)
2004 - 46 coaches (40 NAF)
2005 - 53 coaches (47 NAF) (JJ attends)
Chaos Cup
2003 - 42 coaches (22 NAF) (JJ attends)
2004 - 22 coaches (14 NAF)
2005 - 18 coaches (18 NAF)
=========================
Now based on talking with several folks I'm going to argue several factors why that 42 number may be very difficult to match and the time of year has nothing to do with it. I wish I had a 4th year of data from GenCon ... to prove out some of my thoughts so bear with me.
1) 1st year syndrome and JJ. Using GenCon as a baseline ... once the newest of the tournament wears off ... that resulted in a 23.5% drop in attendance at GenCon. JJ coming the next year gives me a 15% increase in coaches attending. Combine the two effects and you have effectively an expected 38.5% drop in attendance ... what we saw was 47.5% drop ... the extra 9% = 4 coaches ... which will follow.
2) Poor organization. I know several coaches that did not attend in year 3 because of the way GW ran the tournament in 2004. Also the Chaos Cup failed to impress the folks that came from out of the US. These numbers quickly account for the remaining drop.
==========
My bottom line. Without the 1st year effect and no JJ and the poor reputation it earned from years 1 and 2 ... the 18 number is actually not suprising and the 22 number from year 2 is only 4 under the 26 that I would predict using GenCon as a model.
IE ... the date had virtually nothing to do with the attendance of the first Chaos Cup. Moving it would not bring in the coaches. The attendance in 2003 had nothing to do with being in summer.
The Chaos Cup needs to fix it reputation ... I think they did a lot to do that this year ... it might take some time ... but I think it can be a decent tournament for size .. but I don't think you'll see the 40+ number for some time and thinking a summer date will produce it I believe is a false belief.
Galak |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Gaussgoat |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Nov 14, 2005 - 03:57 PM
|
|
Joined: Nov 14, 2005
Keene, NH USA
Posts: 24
Status: Offline
|
|
majortusk wrote: how about i put up a poll on TCC.com
?Anyone? |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Jonny_P |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Nov 14, 2005 - 09:32 PM
|
|
Joined: Feb 10, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 899
Location: United States of America
Status: Offline
|
|
The Chaos Cup was a blast. Last year we had 3 coaches from our gaming group there. This year we had 5. Next year, especially with the referral incentive we hope to have 8-10. That's just from Chicago alone. You add in the other tourney regulars and it will eventually become a large event. I would not bail on the date or location.
And yeah, I'm local to it so it would suck if it got moved, but oh well. We could always run a local Chicago NAF tourney and get at least the locals there and have a great time. I enjoyed the Chaos Cup but i'm not going to cry if it got moved.
Tom: great job running it, with more GW support (like we are currently seeing), I'm sure next year will also be a success. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Hoshi_Komi |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Nov 15, 2005 - 07:40 AM
|
|
Joined: Nov 23, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 550
Location: United States of America
Status: Offline
|
|
| thanks to the guys who pm'd me with support but don't want to get involved with this. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Rune_Master |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Nov 15, 2005 - 08:13 AM
|
|
Joined: Apr 02, 2005
Posts: 196
Status: Offline
|
|
First of all Galak, while I may not have thousands of posts, or "earned" my opinion by virtue of my tournament history, don't trivialize my comment by by giving a condescending reply to me and then move on to bash Ken some more. I have no reason to not respect you, please don't give me one.
The fact that GW LTD. spent money in Chicago to host a tournament is not relevant to the name "Chaos Cup". That name can be retracted and/or moved wherever and whenever they choose, and you know that. Not to mention, I never suggested GW-Chicago not host a tourny, I only suggested moving the name and the "major" status to rotating locations.
Because GW-Chicago has spent over $5,000 on permanent fixtures to hold the Chaos Cup and to be honest it is their tournament to run. You cannot move the Chaos Cup because that tournament is the property currently of GW-Chicago. |
_________________
Erik Grogswiller
"Ho! stand to your flagons steady!
'Tis all we have left to prize.
A drink to the dead already,--
Hurrah for the next that dies."
- ancient Dwarf toast
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Nov 15, 2005 - 09:00 AM
|
|
Joined: Feb 10, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 2319
Location: United States of America
|
|
The Chaos Cup should be THE US Tourney. So what has to be done to get it there?
1) Realize that folks proposing changes are just trying to help and maintain a respectful conversation.
2) You have the date for next year already so please post it. Then people can plan ahead. If you want to draw folks from more than 5-6 hours away by car, then chances are they'll be flying. Give them the opportunity to book flights now with frequent flyer miles (before they get blacked out) or regularly (looking for bargain prices over time).
3) Advertise the prizes before the event (Big failure this year...you had a gem there and didnt use it).
4) Date change could help, but it doesnt look like thats going to happen so future suggestions should try to work with the date in hand.
5) Arrange a discounted block of rooms if possible.
6) The attendance discount will help draw locals, but $5 isnt going to get someone to fly.
7) Get JJ to come...clearly he draws a crowd. Andy does too. Would a sculptor like SteveB or Phil? I know I'd be interested in hearing them give a talk on sculpting minis.
8 ) Keep brainstorming other ideas...lots of smart folks here so let's hear your ideas....just keep it constructive... |
_________________
aka Rob (NAF #248)
President of the Lord Borak Fan Club
Founder of the GCLU
Commissioner, TO, Goblin King, NEBBN TSO
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
GalakStarscraper |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Nov 15, 2005 - 11:00 AM
|
|
Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 1562
Status: Offline
|
|
Rune_Master wrote: First of all Galak, while I may not have thousands of posts, or "earned" my opinion by virtue of my tournament history, don't trivialize my comment by by giving a condescending reply to me and then move on to bash Ken some more. Sigh ... it was not meant to be condescending ... honest! I know from talking to Snots that when I post things that I believe/know are facts that they come off as condescending ... I really honestly thought I was giving you a direct answer to why the tournament could not be moved. I'll elaborate more on why it cannot be moved to follow.
The truth Rune_Master is that the Chaos Cup is the property of GW-Chicago. Your suggestion that the GW can just choose to move the Chaos Cup whereever they want is not true. The GW corp and the NAF do not control the Chaos Cup, GW-Chicago does. This is like saying that if we the coaches don't like the way the Blood Bowl is run that we can move it to be held at the Tulips tournament or another GW store ... that is just not true.
Look guys ... this is not the NAF's tournament. It is GW tournament and they have told me that they want to have it in November. Bashing me for trying to explain this is shooting the messenger to be honest.
So Rune_Master/Gken/vt_doogie ... everyone ... I'm not trying to be disrespectful or flame or ignore or be condenscending to anyone. But this is not MY tournament ... and it is not the NAF's tournament either.
The other thing is I really need to explain something about how GW US works as I think that's a piece of data that Rune_Master is missing.
Quote: The fact that GW LTD. spent money in Chicago to host a tournament is not relevant to the name "Chaos Cup". That name can be retracted and/or moved wherever and whenever they choose, and you know that.
Actually this is not the case. GW LTD did not spend the money. GW Chicago did. The trophy, the permanent plaque, and the Chaos Cup stadium are the property of the Chicago Battle Bunker. GW in the US is regionally divided ... each region is its own company for financial reporting. So GW LTD would not retract the name and would not move it wherever or whenever they choose ... this tournament is property of GW Chicago Battle Bunker just like the Blood Bowl is owned by GW-Nottingham.
And why I'm getting upset is because the forceful comments from the posters here to move the tournament is like asking me to move the GenCon Bowl ... I don't get the ability to pick the dates of that tournament or the Chaos Cup ... they are picked by someone else. So if my tone sounds upset I apologize ... but you guys are targetting an element I have very very little control over (if I have any at all).
Last year the critics were aimed at the way the event was organized, advertised, how sportsmanship worked, and how the final tournament placing was determined. These were all items I could control so I did everything I could to fix the problems with these items. I'm more than willing to bend over backwards to help make this tournament a success but I just ask folks to aim at elements that I actually control.
Galak |
Last edited by GalakStarscraper on Nov 15, 2005 - 11:10 AM; edited 1 time in total
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
GalakStarscraper |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Nov 15, 2005 - 11:03 AM
|
|
Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 1562
Status: Offline
|
|
Melifaxis wrote: 7) Get JJ to come...clearly he draws a crowd. Andy does too. Would a sculptor like SteveB or Phil? I know I'd be interested in hearing them give a talk on sculpting minis.
This requires the event to pay for their plane ticket which is not an inexpensive proposal.
GW-Chicago put all the money from the entry fees back into prizes and offered up the space and extra labour for free. So any attempt to bring JJ or anyone else in would require us to put that cost on the players that play. Which would mean an entry fee of probably $50 a person just to pay for that visit.
I paid for this out of my own pocket for GenCon to get to met JJ and have him visit the GenCon Bowl ... I think the ability to do this again is a big question mark in terms of the cost.
Galak |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Nov 15, 2005 - 11:09 AM
|
|
Joined: Feb 10, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 2319
Location: United States of America
|
|
Fair enough...what about a domestic sculptor...lower cost...or is there a guy right in Chicago even?
I dunno just brainstorming. |
_________________
aka Rob (NAF #248)
President of the Lord Borak Fan Club
Founder of the GCLU
Commissioner, TO, Goblin King, NEBBN TSO
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
GalakStarscraper |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Nov 15, 2005 - 11:18 AM
|
|
Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 1562
Status: Offline
|
|
Melifaxis wrote: 2) You have the date for next year already so please post it. Then people can plan ahead. If you want to draw folks from more than 5-6 hours away by car, then chances are they'll be flying.
My hope is by month's end I'll have the Chaos Cup website updated for 2006. GW has set next year's tournament for November 4th and 5th.
Quote: 3) Advertise the prizes before the event (Big failure this year...you had a gem there and didnt use it). I didn't know about the painted team until 30 minutes before I handed out the prizes. It was something GW decided to offer at the last minute ... they even asked me if it was a good prize because they didn't know if it was.
Quote: 4) Date change could help, but it doesnt look like thats going to happen so future suggestions should try to work with the date in hand. To be clear on this ... GW Chicago has said before that the summer is bad timing for the Chaos Cup. The early November date works very well for their events schedule.
Quote: 5) Arrange a discounted block of rooms if possible. The Red Roof is really cheap for Chicago. I split the room with a friend for $30 a night for each of us. (actually it ended up being $25 a night as we let Xtreme sleep on the floor for $10 a night)
Quote: 6) The attendance discount will help draw locals, but $5 isnt going to get someone to fly. Understood but there are several BB leagues in Chicago, Detriot, Fort Wayne, South Bend, Milwaukee, and Indianapolis. If just a decent number of those folks made the trip as they are all within driving distance ... the touranment would easily exceed 40 players.
Quote: 7) Get JJ to come...clearly he draws a crowd. Andy does too. Would a sculptor like SteveB or Phil? I know I'd be interested in hearing them give a talk on sculpting minis. If plane tickets were not a mint I'd try this. And will a local sculptor really be a draw to get folks to come?
Quote: 8 ) Keep brainstorming other ideas...lots of smart folks here so let's hear your ideas....just keep it constructive... I totally agree with this.
Galak |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
