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Mestari |
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Post subject:
 Posted: Sep 02, 2003 - 11:10 AM
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Joined: Feb 11, 2003
Posts: 407
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| Hopefully. I would really like to see the vampire team to return, but only if it's on the low end of the power spectrum. And based on the little data and the two games I've seen so far, this might not be the case. |
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Teemu Tokola aka Mestari
Member #52
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Tutenkharnage |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 03, 2003 - 06:22 AM
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Joined: Feb 11, 2003
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This thread is becoming less appropriate for this forum...but as long as we're diverging, I believe strongly in the following curbs to the longfangs:
* Hypnotic Gaze should be used in place of a block.
* OFAB should leave you uncertain as to which players will show up.
That first one will go a long way toward "fixing" the Vampire team, IMO. Mind you, I'd allow HG to succeed on a straight 2+ roll against any opponent. But forcing the Vamps to declare blitzes to move and gaze would be a Good Thing; ditto eliminating the "free action" bit of this skill.
Regarding OFAB, I prefer the BBM4 version.
-Chet |
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Mestari |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 04, 2003 - 04:37 AM
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Joined: Feb 11, 2003
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Well, I would be happy with Hypnogaze if it could only be used in the beginning of an action. Then there would be no moving hypnogazers making holes anywhere they wish.
With the second point I strongly disagree with:
We all know that the problem with "miss a drive"-OFAB was that every vamp you got on the pitch mean a 100% reliable AG4ST4Hypnogaze player on the pitch. No off-pitch negative can fix that. The vampire negative needs to be on-pitch.
I prefer the current COFAB over any form of off-pitch negative, although I would be happy to make it even more harsh on the vamps. |
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Teemu Tokola aka Mestari
Member #52
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GalakStarscraper |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 07, 2003 - 07:59 PM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 1562
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Mestari wrote:
We all know that the problem with "miss a drive"-OFAB was that every vamp you got on the pitch mean a 100% reliable AG4ST4Hypnogaze player on the pitch. No off-pitch negative can fix that. The vampire negative needs to be on-pitch.
Mestari, I've tried to convince Chet of this for a year. For whatever reason he disagrees. Me I fully agree with you. No off-pitch version of OFAB will ever balance this team.
NOW ... as for Hypnotic Gaze having to be used in place of a block. That I could live with. It would REALLY reduce the power of the ability, but if its needed I'd definitely be okay with it.
Galak |
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Doubleskulls |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 08, 2003 - 02:37 AM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Mar 05, 2003
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Location: Kent, UK
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Tutenkharnage wrote: * Hypnotic Gaze should be used in place of a block.
Maybe all you need to do is either make it the 1st thing the player does in an action OR stop RR of the gaze roll. Hypno Gaze isn't that reliable, unless your opponents have low AG or you can reroll the result.
Tutenkharnage wrote: * OFAB should leave you uncertain as to which players will show up.
Why?
Have you tried COFAB? I've played against it and it makes a complete mess of the Vampires - they are unreliable & soak up TRR - or just mess up the play. It makes Vamps very hard, and very interesting, to play.
BTW, what house rules are you currently using for Vamps (if any)? |
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Ian 'Double Skulls' Williams
SLOBB
NAF Racial Results
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Tutenkharnage |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 08, 2003 - 09:57 AM
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Joined: Feb 11, 2003
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That (HG) suggestion might be on the money. That said, I can't think of any other "free action" rolls in Blood Bowl, and I wonder whether Hypnotic Gaze is too big a factor because of its exceptional nature.
As for our house rules, we use the standard OFAB from the Annual. It's a bit of a moot point, as we don't have any Vampire teams in the league. I've seen the new OFAB rules in action, but I don't believe they're supposed to make a complete "mess" of the team. Unfortunately, they do. And they raise far more questions than they answer.
Just MO.
-Chet |
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Doubleskulls |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 08, 2003 - 01:39 PM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Mar 05, 2003
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Location: Kent, UK
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Tutenkharnage wrote: I've seen the new OFAB rules in action, but I don't believe they're supposed to make a complete "mess" of the team. Unfortunately, they do. And they raise far more questions than they answer.
I was under the impression that OFAB had to be very harsh. Basically ST4 AG4 players will destroy pretty much any team they come up against. Missing the odd drive is, IMO, too weak. Maybe tweaking the old OFAB (so you could miss consecutive drives for example) would help beef it up, but fundamentally having ~3 Vampires wandering around the pitch is going to mess up most team's days.
With the new OFAB, its very nasty on rookie Vampires. However I think as coaches get more experienced you'll see two things
1) Lots of TRR. This helps enormously to move key vampires. It does tend to use up the TRR for the turn so they aren't available for other things though.
2) Pro as the 1st skill for vampires. It drops the chances of failing down to a more tolerable ~10%. Also skills that allow a reroll become more important generally because you are often burning your TRR for the turn on a OFAB roll.
So I think developed Vampire teams are going to be thing to be feared - especially once they are up to 14~16 players so can afford to lose the odd thrall now and again.
The one thing I really like about the new OFAB is that it makes tactics immensely important for the team. You really have to think long and hard about where your Vampires go - e.g. you can't just leave 1 backfield when receiving to pick up the ball, because if he fails his OFAB you wont have anyone who can get there. |
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Ian 'Double Skulls' Williams
SLOBB
NAF Racial Results
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GalakStarscraper |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 09, 2003 - 09:40 AM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 1562
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Tutenkharnage wrote: I've seen the new OFAB rules in action, but I don't believe they're supposed to make a complete "mess" of the team. Unfortunately, they do.
Actually Chet ... everyone I've talked to wanted them to make a complete "mess" of the team. They seem to be doing the job just right. The team has about a 50% win rate in the MBBL ... bullseye if you ask me.
Quote: And they raise far more questions than they answer.
Now I have to counterargue this one, because in my opinion it based on out of date information. The MBBL hasn't had a vampire related question for the last 3 months. I talked with Neo about Andy and the BBB league and was told that the BBB isn't having Vampire questions either since they clarified to include all the changes shown on the Hot List.
I and other coaches like this rule Chet, and all the commishes I've talked to using these rules say the coaches are not having any trouble understanding them with the Hot List revised wording. The only questions I've seen resulted from the Annual wording. I think I've had one coach have questions after reading the Hot List wording and I've talked about the COFAB with several coaches and commishes at this point.
Galak |
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GalakStarscraper |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 09, 2003 - 09:47 AM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
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Doubleskulls wrote: The one thing I really like about the new OFAB is that it makes tactics immensely important for the team. You really have to think long and hard about where your Vampires go - e.g. you can't just leave 1 backfield when receiving to pick up the ball, because if he fails his OFAB you wont have anyone who can get there.
In my opinion .. this is one of the best changes with COFAB. I've played old OFAB Vampires for 2 years. There really is no skill/strategy needed to play a team of ST 4/AG 4 ST/AG access players.
The bottom line for me is that off pitch nega-skills never work. Take Root and OFAB are just not working nega-skills in their old forms. COFAB looks like its got a decent chance of getting through. Now if an experimental on-pitch Take Root can be added .... we'll have working nega-skills.
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bb_nut |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 07, 2004 - 03:55 PM
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Joined: May 31, 2004
England
Posts: 26
Location: England
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I played a Vampire team in a league at my club and meet mixed results, I finished the season 5 Wins, 1 Draw & 5 Loses. I also got to the final of the cup that we ran along side it.
We used the rules in the game in the Blood Bowl Mag that Vampires were released in (on a 1 they blits the nearest enemy player), we also made te Vampires 120k and re-rolls 60k. This seemed to work and although the Vampire running game is good, the OFAB rule does let them down alot.
Later Days |
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2009 Season
BB GT - 26th London Dwarfish 'Dwarfs'
Thrudd Ball - 25th/26th July - London Dwarfish 'Dwarfs'
Albion Coast Cup - 29th/30th August
Exiles Bowl - 13th/14th Spetember
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Clan_Skaven |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 07, 2004 - 04:33 PM
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Joined: Aug 19, 2003
Niagara Falls ON, Canada
Posts: 2606
Location: Niagara Falls ON, Canada
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Game-Opolis wrote: My final choice was
3 Vampires
8 Thralls
3 RR
9 FF
10 Treasury
I played my first game and added Pro skill to a Vamp. I tied 1-1 and should have won the game. Played Dark Elves very tough team. Thralls need some skills....
Good advice on the Vamp Lord...
You stated after your first game you gave the Pro "skill" to a Vamp. Unless I'm mistaken, but isn't PRO now a Traight? |
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"2006 SPIKE Champion!"
"Death-Bowl IV & V, Most Casualties!, Death-Bowl VI Best Team!"
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Host of the Warpstone Cup, Q'ermitt Bowl & the Hope Bowl
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 07, 2004 - 05:06 PM
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Joined: Oct 24, 2003
Posts: 1671
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| It wasn't when he posted this. Look at the date before replying. |
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They will slowly add bits of the vault in on each RR leading up to 2007, starting with LRB 4.0, so it will be a slow and agonising death for BB.
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Clan_Skaven |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 07, 2004 - 05:18 PM
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Joined: Aug 19, 2003
Niagara Falls ON, Canada
Posts: 2606
Location: Niagara Falls ON, Canada
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| Oooooooooops, my mistake. Sorry. |
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"2006 SPIKE Champion!"
"Death-Bowl IV & V, Most Casualties!, Death-Bowl VI Best Team!"
"2008 Dagger Bowl Champion"
Host of the Warpstone Cup, Q'ermitt Bowl & the Hope Bowl
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Spazzfist |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 25, 2004 - 12:07 PM
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Joined: Aug 16, 2004
Canada
Posts: 3957
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
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I just noticed this post, and am thankful! I am planning on playing a Vampire Team at the Oakville Battle Bunker league and am looking for some advice.
For a starting team I was considering:
3 x vampires - 330K
9 x thrall - 360K
3 x reroll - 210K
9 x FF - 90K
1 x Cheer - 10K
I think the solid base of thralls will give me room for punishment (both from the other team and my own!) I figured an apothecary is a waste until I have a lot of developed thralls as they are easily injured and easily replaced.
However, now that I have read the other posts, I may consider one less thrall, 2 less FF and one more RR.
In the line up I keep the vamps a litle behind the line, that way if they get thirsty the thralls are ahead of them - basically I am going to try to keep the thralls ahead, so if they get thirsty the vamps will move in the right direction!
there is talk that the team can be expected to lose more than 50% of their games? Why? What would the percentage be for say an orc team? Or humans?
I play to have fun, but winning is good too, ya know!
Spazz |
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#1 Snotling coach in Canada
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Apedog |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 25, 2004 - 02:06 PM
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Joined: Feb 17, 2003
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Vamps are supposed to be a 2nd tier team (ie. less competitive than the main teams) so they are expected to have a less than 50% win ratio. Orcs or Humans (OT:maybe less so in my experience) are 1st tier teams and so are expected to win 50% of games given equally skilled coaches and teams.
From my limited experience the extra rr would be nice to start, and an apoth asap will be a good idea, expect to get beaten up if you play in a bashy league. |
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Munkey
Boom! He's on his back!
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