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Talons |
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Post subject:
 Posted: Sep 25, 2007 - 09:37 PM
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Joined: Aug 24, 2004
Posts: 204
Status: Offline
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Well said Spazz!!!!! Guys, I'm definitely going to keep my opinions to myself on this topic because I'm afraid that I won't use the proper tact when I speak. Rod always tells me that I say things in a hurtful manner to others, so I won't post my sentiments until I clearly think of the proper way to say them.
I hope the tourney is successful, as it has in the past, I know that you all went to great lengths to purchase the DeathBowl when Brian was giving it up. So I applaud you guys for that, but to change the way the DeathBowl has been for 4 years I think is a travesty. I will post further at another time. |
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Cramy |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 26, 2007 - 06:53 AM
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Joined: Nov 17, 2006
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Posts: 403
Location: Canada
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Thanks for the feedback guys. Wow. I for one was not thinking that people would feel that strongly about how the rules are being changed.
Now that we know how people feel, we can try to fix it. We can't fix things if if we don't know that there is something to fix.  So this feedback is very helpful.
Looks like if three main things were highlighted. Point 1) being the main issue.
1) People would prefer to bring back the original way that assists work.
2) Is there a problem with 4 DB games, or do people prefer only the last game be DB? Not that clear to me if this is an issue or not.
3) Generally speaking, people would like the tournament to be run exactly like Brian ran it. I'm thinking that using the LRB5 ruleset would be OK? How about the BB7's round?
Anybody else has opinions about this? Did I express your concerns accurately?
A concern that Rod had was with odd-men out, as we may need 3 of them for DeathBowl. Glenn, Joe and Mark are the odd-men out this year. So no need to worry.
All thoughts and opinions welcome. |
_________________
The Ottawa Gatineau Blood Bowl League, fine purveyors of Blood Bowl tournaments since 2007. Home to the Deathbowl, CCKO and Daggerbowl.
Cramy
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Spazzfist |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 26, 2007 - 07:10 AM
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Joined: Aug 16, 2004
Canada
Posts: 3954
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
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Cramy,
I am not stongly opposed to the changes, don't get me wrong there. I do want to attend, and see how it works before I make any stronger statements about what works and what doesn't.
But having said that, if there was anything that I am not crazy about it is the lack of assisting, that just doesn't make sense to me.
I am not saying in any way that Deathbowl shuld be run as Brian ran it ( not that therre was anything wrong with that). With new management comes a new spin on it, that's cool. Frankly, I am excited about the prospect of the four Deathbowl games and I know there was more than one person that really hated the 7's. I am more easy going, and was out just to have fun - no matter what. My only concern is that this has turned into Glenn Jones trying to prevent people playing the "Alliance Bowl". Fair enough - he wants to try to prevent it, but honestly, I think that he can't completely. My concern then is that he is going to take away some of the more fun elements of the Deathbowl in his attempt to do so. |
_________________
#1 Nurgle coach in Canada (formerly the world!)
#1 Snotling coach in Canada
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Notorious_jtb |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 26, 2007 - 07:47 AM
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Joined: Sep 02, 2005
Canada
Posts: 1456
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
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I think the alliance bowl vs deathbowl debate is the issue here. It is certainly at the heart of Rod's statement.
Maybe the language we used was a little strong in terms of being down on alliance bowl.
In fact in an earlier draft there was an explicit reference to the result between the other two players being something of interest to you as well. Something which you should attempt to manipulate to your advantage.
I agree totally with your example Spazz. There is no way someone is going to chose to allow a score on them when they could aid a score on someone else.
The main goal of the anti-alliance bowl chat was to prevent a players whole turn being taken up with chat and then they run out of time, which would be unfair. Something which Rod agreed with. Although on the flip side Rods observation that we seemed to have banned planning and plotting is unfortunate, it wasn't our intention. If you can plan and plot without disrupting the coach who's turn it is, feel free.
I think Glen had a very bad experience at DBIII, with one player basically playing two of the teams that got him upset. One of the things this rule was supposed to prevent was "coaching" from another bench. again an unfair thing.
The main idea was that the active player could talk and make deals during his turn. It adds structure to the whole thing, which keeps the game moving on.
The assist rule was a solution to a problem, as Spazz says, time. Its is the same as the alliance chat, a coach dithering about trying to decide who to assist costs the active coach valuable playing time, which is very unfair.
A solution which works on fairness and aids the speed is the one we suggested, with the assist rule working how it does in the LRB5.0.
The assist rule does make sense Spazz. I can accept people dislike it and people may not think its fun, but it does make sense.
A player is not likely to assist a block for one opponent one minute and then backstab the next. Just try and imagine what you'd do, in a big scrum, you'd look out for yourself and try and help your mates, not a random opponent every turn.
I know this is exaclty what Rod says he likes, and i suspect Rob P enjoys it too, along with a bunch of other people.
I do not dislike the old rule.
However, I personally think the rule change is brilliant. It solves the timekeeping issue around stopping the clock whilst 3 guys decide who to assist on a block. It adds realism. It makes the game simpler and quicker.
It all comes down to this. If 4 games of deathbowl is apealing then there has to be changes to the rules.
If you have all day to play one game then you can use the old rules and its all good.
If you need to play 3 games in one day then it has to happen faster.
Unless anyone has a great idea to make the declaring of assists quicker...................................? |
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Spazzfist |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 26, 2007 - 08:02 AM
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Joined: Aug 16, 2004
Canada
Posts: 3954
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
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The only thing I could think of for quick assists would be the following:
Y
X
Z
In the case where player Z is blocking player X and player Y is in a position to assist then they must assist. The same would work in defensive assists.
XY
Z
Where player Z is blocking player X and Y could assist either way, then let the dice decide. 1-3 they assist offensively, 4-6 they assist defensively (alternatively, you could say they would go 1-2 offensive, 3-4 defensive and 5-6 they do nothing) This adds elements of risk and chance, as well as removing any pre-set alliances. |
_________________
#1 Nurgle coach in Canada (formerly the world!)
#1 Snotling coach in Canada
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Notorious_jtb |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 26, 2007 - 08:16 AM
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Joined: Sep 02, 2005
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Posts: 1456
Location: Canada
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Good idea mechanically Spazz.
Its fairly straightforward and quick.
I wonder if it is a little bit restraining to be forced to assist. I'm not sure people will like that anymore than not being allowed to. We shall see.
Hmmmm |
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Spazzfist |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 26, 2007 - 08:25 AM
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Joined: Aug 16, 2004
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Posts: 3954
Location: Canada
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| Well if you think about it, the coach in any sport only has so much influence over his players. Sometimes they just act out of their own accord! If you are worried about the forced assist, then go for the three result option where there is a chance that they do nothing at all. |
_________________
#1 Nurgle coach in Canada (formerly the world!)
#1 Snotling coach in Canada
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Daggers |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 26, 2007 - 08:27 AM
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Joined: Dec 07, 2006
Canada
Posts: 1618
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
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I feel there is little left for me to say since Joe and Cramy have voiced the organizers side of the coin so well. And I appreciate Rod and Spazz voicing their opinions, and in a fashion that allows us to try and improve the tournament by offering reason why, instead of just bitching and complaining they don't like it.
To me, alot of this stems from the idea that we wanted to offer 4 games of deathbowl, which I still believe is a wonderful idea. But with that came serious time contraints, each game taking so long, and only so much useable time in a day, made it interesting to find solutions to speed it up. With that I think maybe we tried to hard and removed some aspects of the game that just can't be removed, such as the assists. I believe allowing the coaches to choose who to assist is still the best option, but I believe we will need to find a happy medium.
People keep saying that Brians deathbowl was fine, why change it? But Spazz said it perfectly, new management, new outlook. We wanted to offer ONLY Deathbowl, and that was our main goal. I am sorry if this offends anyone, but if you want to play regular BB, you can do that anytime. Tournaments are supposed to be the chance to offer something different. If you do not like that philosophy and decide not to come, hopefully our tournament goes well and people say good things about it. Then maybe next year you will change your mind. |
_________________
Stunty Champion: Golden Sweetbun I-V , Canadian Open 2014-2015, Brewhouse Bowl 2015 (all with the EPIC IRON CHEFS)
Check out NAFCANADA.ca for the latest tournaments in Canada.
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Daggers |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 26, 2007 - 08:30 AM
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Joined: Dec 07, 2006
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Posts: 1618
Location: Canada
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Spazzfist wrote: Well if you think about it, the coach in any sport only has so much influence over his players. Sometimes they just act out of their own accord! If you are worried about the forced assist, then go for the three result option where there is a chance that they do nothing at all.
I acutally like the idea of rolling to assist, the coach who is blocking can decide if he wants to roll the dice, but if he does he has to accept the result, whether it be for or against him. Then it stays true to the whole philosophy of Bloodbowl, roll the dice and take a chance. |
_________________
Stunty Champion: Golden Sweetbun I-V , Canadian Open 2014-2015, Brewhouse Bowl 2015 (all with the EPIC IRON CHEFS)
Check out NAFCANADA.ca for the latest tournaments in Canada.
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Notorious_jtb |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 26, 2007 - 08:34 AM
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Joined: Sep 02, 2005
Canada
Posts: 1456
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
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Dwarfrunner wrote: Spazzfist wrote: Well if you think about it, the coach in any sport only has so much influence over his players. Sometimes they just act out of their own accord! If you are worried about the forced assist, then go for the three result option where there is a chance that they do nothing at all.
I acutally like the idea of rolling to assist, the coach who is blocking can decide if he wants to roll the dice, but if he does he has to accept the result, whether it be for or against him. Then it stays true to the whole philosophy of Bloodbowl, roll the dice and take a chance.
Actually, there is merit to this plan. I have to admit I didn't read the randomness part properly spazz. Makes me worry about posting such long essays  |
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Spazzfist |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 26, 2007 - 08:43 AM
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Joined: Aug 16, 2004
Canada
Posts: 3954
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
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Dwarfrunner wrote: I feel there is little left for me to say since Joe and Cramy have voiced the organizers side of the coin so well. And I appreciate Rod and Spazz voicing their opinions, and in a fashion that allows us to try and improve the tournament by offering reason why, instead of just bitching and complaining they don't like it.
To me, alot of this stems from the idea that we wanted to offer 4 games of deathbowl, which I still believe is a wonderful idea. But with that came serious time contraints, each game taking so long, and only so much useable time in a day, made it interesting to find solutions to speed it up. With that I think maybe we tried to hard and removed some aspects of the game that just can't be removed, such as the assists. I believe allowing the coaches to choose who to assist is still the best option, but I believe we will need to find a happy medium.
People keep saying that Brians deathbowl was fine, why change it? But Spazz said it perfectly, new management, new outlook. We wanted to offer ONLY Deathbowl, and that was our main goal. I am sorry if this offends anyone, but if you want to play regular BB, you can do that anytime. Tournaments are supposed to be the chance to offer something different. If you do not like that philosophy and decide not to come, hopefully our tournament goes well and people say good things about it. Then maybe next year you will change your mind.
Very well put Marc. I am glad that you understood Rod's and my good intentions, and you have summarized all the points well. |
_________________
#1 Nurgle coach in Canada (formerly the world!)
#1 Snotling coach in Canada
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Notorious_jtb |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 26, 2007 - 08:48 AM
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Joined: Sep 02, 2005
Canada
Posts: 1456
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
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Spazzfist wrote: Very well put Marc. I am glad that you understood Rod's and my good intentions, and you have summarized all the points well.
I agree, I've been very wrapped up in speeding up deathbowl since we took over. It became my main objective.
I think I did lose sight of the fun with the assist rule. Although, the new assist rule really would have helped your ogres Spazz |
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Daggers |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 26, 2007 - 09:14 AM
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Joined: Dec 07, 2006
Canada
Posts: 1618
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
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Spazzfist wrote: Dwarfrunner wrote: I feel there is blah blah blah. Then maybe next year you will change your mind.
Very well put Marc. I am glad that you understood Rod's and my good intentions, and you have summarized all the points well.
Thanks teach, do I get an A+? I believe we will find an acceptable solution that will give enough people a reason to come out and try it. When it goes well, then the people who didn't come this year can sit at home wishing they had come. |
_________________
Stunty Champion: Golden Sweetbun I-V , Canadian Open 2014-2015, Brewhouse Bowl 2015 (all with the EPIC IRON CHEFS)
Check out NAFCANADA.ca for the latest tournaments in Canada.
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BB_Babe |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 26, 2007 - 09:49 AM
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Joined: Sep 23, 2005
Posts: 211
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In our 7's League, 4-way DeathCup matches can be played whenever 4 teams agree to one. The assist rule we use is that after one player declares a block, we go around the table clockwise to the two players who are not active participants in that block. Each player in turn declares if they are assisting or not, and who they are assisting before the next player declares.
Cheers,
Mo |
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Notorious_jtb |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 26, 2007 - 10:14 AM
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Joined: Sep 02, 2005
Canada
Posts: 1456
Location: Canada
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BB_Babe wrote: In our 7's League, 4-way DeathCup matches can be played whenever 4 teams agree to one. The assist rule we use is that after one player declares a block, we go around the table clockwise to the two players who are not active participants in that block. Each player in turn declares if they are assisting or not, and who they are assisting before the next player declares.
Cheers,
Mo
Yeah. That formalises things and adds structure, and more importantly puts pressure on the players to be quick as everyone knows who's holding things up |
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