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Lizardcore |
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Post subject:
 Posted: Jan 03, 2012 - 05:57 PM
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Joined: Apr 07, 2004
Posts: 513
Status: Offline
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daloonieshaman wrote: Yes it promotes diversity
But do you want to not play your Dwarves because Dave wants to play his? do we want to go down that road.
Well, it definitely reinforce the team spirit. If you haven't ever try it, just leave as is, and if nobody likes it, change it next time.
daloonieshaman wrote: Team creation: 1 mil, 1.1, 1.25 they all offer different levels of fun.
1.1 is the standard in europe for one very simple reason: that's the system that allows the most teams to be competitive (I know you're talking of level of fun, not competition. That's another debate  ).
daloonieshaman wrote: as far as inducements why eliminate any? (well maybe cards as some people find it bothersome). The argument for the wiz is petty as my snotling can just as well bop on your head and send you out. (yea and how many times you you rolled a 1 on an important GFI at least you get to reroll that) Other than the HMC/B you can make a circular argument for any inducement if a person wants to spend his $$$ that way.
True enough. The cards could be bothersome, especially if you have to check the card decks of your oponent before the game to check he's not cheating (what ? 8 queen of spades ?! ). For the rest... after all, if somebody want's to waste his money, why not 
daloonieshaman wrote: (s)Kill progression. not my favorite
I admit I like your reverse skill up idea, pretty mind twisting. But I would say that for such event, keep it simple. Most likely it's going to be a 5/6 games tournament. Keep it simple, give the classical 4 (or 5) reg skills + 1 double skill package. Works well, and once again it ensures competitivity for many teams.
daloonieshaman wrote: Team Scoring
I didnt like the fact that in the world cup, 1W+1L = 2T. The last rounds, teams could try just not to lose, instead of trying to win. I would use the W=3, T=1 and L=0 for both individual and team rankings.
daloonieshaman wrote: Matchups
For the sake of speed and fairness, a double swiss system is the best (i.e. WCII)
PS: note that I'm not North American, even though I live in Toronto. But I figured that if I join the discussion at least we are 3, together with daloonie and JTB |
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Daggers |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 03, 2012 - 07:17 PM
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Joined: Dec 07, 2006
Canada
Posts: 1618
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
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daloonieshaman wrote: I am not so sure limitations on the roster selection for the four teams should be there.
Yes it promotes diversity
But do you want to not play your Dwarves because Dave wants to play his? do we want to go down that road.
I like it simply because it DOES promote diversity. It forces people to play different races, instead of everyone playing Dwarves/Orcs/Undead. I just don't want a bunch of power-gamers showing up with 4 dwarf teams because they can't play any other races.
daloonieshaman wrote: Team creation: 1 mil, 1.1, 1.25 they all offer different levels of fun. as far as inducements why eliminate any?..... .
I would actually like to see possibly a higher team starting value and possibly less skills throughout or something, and inducements can be included. As Lizardcore mentioned, its kinda the norm in Europe, but I find its been played out. I am with Daloonie, let’s try something a little different. And cards are annoying, but if people want to spend money on Stats and such, then go ahead.
I am more for skill packages than skill purchases, and am interested in your reverse skill setup. Its different, and could be very interesting and original. But do not like the idea of league style games. Takes to long and some coaches who figure they can’t win will simply try and kill you off so you are screwed for your next game.
I like the way the WC had it. I am against anything that gives too many points to tying/losing. I still think it should be about winning. 3pts for a win, 1 pt for a tie in both single and team points totals in my opinion.
I am with Liz and JTB again, double swiss is the most effective and fair way to do it. No one can complain about matchups. |
_________________
Stunty Champion: Golden Sweetbun I-V , Canadian Open 2014-2015, Brewhouse Bowl 2015 (all with the EPIC IRON CHEFS)
Check out NAFCANADA.ca for the latest tournaments in Canada.
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Daggers |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 03, 2012 - 07:21 PM
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Joined: Dec 07, 2006
Canada
Posts: 1618
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
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| Very excited where all this is going, I love seeing people getting involved striving to the same goal. This tournament cannot come fast enough in my opinion. Just hope I can make it. |
_________________
Stunty Champion: Golden Sweetbun I-V , Canadian Open 2014-2015, Brewhouse Bowl 2015 (all with the EPIC IRON CHEFS)
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daloonieshaman |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 03, 2012 - 07:33 PM
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Joined: Feb 28, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 883
Location: United States of America
Status: Offline
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My feeling on the rules is this.
#1) first and foremost this is our show and we have no reason to be lazy and do things as others have done them.
#2) Yes some things have proven to work and have become almost universal (ie except for special events no cards) so lets use a lot of those.
#3) Throw it out there regardless of how loonie it seems at first, diversity promotes discussion.
#4) Eventually try to calm down and look at from the other guys point of view 
#5) A group whittling is better than a blank ruling. You win some you lose some at least your voice was expressed
#6) Last but not least enjoy a good ole turn 16 foul once in a while (just because) |
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Daggers |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 04, 2012 - 06:29 AM
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Joined: Dec 07, 2006
Canada
Posts: 1618
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
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I agree, as long as we keep it balanced, why not try something different. And yes, usually things are more common because they are more univeraslly accepted, which also means they are used way more often. Again, we can try something different (after all, we are the new world  ) 1.15 or 1.25 with a reverse skill selection would really make it interesting. Pretty sure it has never been done before. The later games would get harder as the skills diminish. I think Daloonie may be onto something there.
I will make sure to remember the turn 16 foul if we play Daloonie (just because). I miss the days when fouling CAS counted as SPP, ah the good ole days. |
_________________
Stunty Champion: Golden Sweetbun I-V , Canadian Open 2014-2015, Brewhouse Bowl 2015 (all with the EPIC IRON CHEFS)
Check out NAFCANADA.ca for the latest tournaments in Canada.
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Jonny_P |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 04, 2012 - 06:45 AM
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Joined: Feb 10, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 899
Location: United States of America
Status: Offline
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This year at Chaos Cup and ZlurpeeBowl we are going with points for Win,Tie,Loss, but no bonus points for TDs or CAS of any kind.
Instead the tie-breaker will be based on strength of schedule... ie how well the teams you've played are doing at the tournament.
Xtreme and I will give feedback on how well/not-so-well this worked later this year in case someone wishes to use something similar for NAC scoring.
Bonus points on a large scale event really suck to enter in. There are always a few coaches each round with scoring sheet errors that need to be caught  |
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Lizardcore |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 04, 2012 - 07:31 AM
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Joined: Apr 07, 2004
Posts: 513
Status: Offline
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daloonieshaman wrote: My feeling on the rules is this.
#1) first and foremost this is our show and we have no reason to be lazy and do things as others have done them.
#2) Yes some things have proven to work and have become almost universal (ie except for special events no cards) so lets use a lot of those.
#3) Throw it out there regardless of how loonie it seems at first, diversity promotes discussion.
#4) Eventually try to calm down and look at from the other guys point of view
#5) A group whittling is better than a blank ruling. You win some you lose some at least your voice was expressed
#6) Last but not least enjoy a good ole turn 16 foul once in a while (just because)
A question you guys need to answer first is: how competitive you want this event to be ?
Do you want the winners to be the most skilled or the better at designing a team that optimises the format you're using. And Dwarfrunner said that the "euro" type of tournament is overplayed, but in 4 years in Canada the only tournament I've been to that uses a similar system is the Orion cup.
The NAF WC II (and WC I) were competitive, therefore, the rule set used were the ones that ensure the fairest competitiveness (i.e. multiple rosters can do well). If you change it, no problem, but you might be facing some power-gaming issues
Maybe the US and Canadian teams that have been to the WC can give some feedback: did the competitiveness killed the fun you had during those events ? |
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Daggers |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 04, 2012 - 12:55 PM
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Joined: Dec 07, 2006
Canada
Posts: 1618
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
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Of course we want it to be competitive. But it doesnt have to be cookie-cutter.
But from what I read (and I may be totally wrong in this), but in Europe alot of tournaments are the same setup, that 1.1 TV with x number of regular skills and y number of double skills. And I don't think you can avoid the power-gamer issue. No matter how we swing it, there will always be people that group of people. But there is also a reason the you always see Undead, Wood Elf and such on the top of the leader boards in large tournaments. I don't expect there to be a great deal of change in the ruleset and such, but where does it say that 1.15 is less competitive than 1.1. Honestly, no matter how you swing it, certain teams will do better in tournaments than others (hence the tier 1, 2 and 3 references to level of difficulty playing them).
I don't know where you got the idea I wanted it to be less competitive? I still want to ensure every team has an equal chance of winning, and I understand that the system you mention has been proven time and again to be balanced and fair. But again, does that mean its the ONLY system that works. No, in my opinion. I mean, hell, even if we do use Daloonies reverse skill progression, how is that any different from the standard tournament, its just backwards. Anyways, I digress. I think we can do something different, and if the proper amount of thought and consideration is put in too keeping the system balanced (even playtesting if necessary) then maybe we can create something that makes the NAC different from the other Major championships. |
_________________
Stunty Champion: Golden Sweetbun I-V , Canadian Open 2014-2015, Brewhouse Bowl 2015 (all with the EPIC IRON CHEFS)
Check out NAFCANADA.ca for the latest tournaments in Canada.
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Daggers |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 04, 2012 - 12:57 PM
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Joined: Dec 07, 2006
Canada
Posts: 1618
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
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| A Jonny_P: Around here, we pretty much eliminated most of that bonus points for TD/CAS and such. It ensured the coach with the best record wont he tournament more often than not. And I liked the idea of toughness of schedule being the first tie-breaker. Although I am not entirely sure how it is calculated (Average points of your opponents throughout the tournament). |
_________________
Stunty Champion: Golden Sweetbun I-V , Canadian Open 2014-2015, Brewhouse Bowl 2015 (all with the EPIC IRON CHEFS)
Check out NAFCANADA.ca for the latest tournaments in Canada.
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daloonieshaman |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 04, 2012 - 01:01 PM
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Joined: Feb 28, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 883
Location: United States of America
Status: Offline
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Dwarfrunner wrote: A Jonny_P: Around here, we pretty much eliminated most of that bonus points for TD/CAS and such. It ensured the coach with the best record wont he tournament more often than not. And I liked the idea of toughness of schedule being the first tie-breaker. Although I am not entirely sure how it is calculated (Average points of your opponents throughout the tournament).
easiest way (hardest by paperwork) is ELO |
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Jonny_P |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 04, 2012 - 01:04 PM
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Joined: Feb 10, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 899
Location: United States of America
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| I think it's built into SCORE, but not totally sure. Still checking on that. |
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Lizardcore |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 04, 2012 - 01:31 PM
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Joined: Apr 07, 2004
Posts: 513
Status: Offline
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Dwarfrunner wrote: I don't expect there to be a great deal of change in the ruleset and such, but where does it say that 1.15 is less competitive than 1.1. Honestly, no matter how you swing it, certain teams will do better in tournaments than others (hence the tier 1, 2 and 3 references to level of difficulty playing them).
If you want, you can just send me whatever tournament format you're thinking of, I'll do a critic of what rosters can make it or not. (I can do it for the existent tournament format as well).
The reverse skill up has nothing to do wit it, as you said, depending when you stop. i.e. if you go as far as no extra skill you can remove the necro and dark elves from the tier1 (there fore, less team able to be competitive). Resulting in even less diversity (if people are trying to win).
One thing you can try though, if to give different amount of money based on what roster is being played (i.e. tier1 = 1.1mil, tier2 = 1.2mil, tier3 = 1.3mil). I know some french tournaments are doing this now to promote diversity. I can ask some feedback if you are interested.
And the idea that it's less competitive if you change the rules is because you assume people will just play whatever team for fun (which is the case in Canada as far as I know), but if more people were trying to win, you would have a dramatic effect on the diversity (way worse than the 1.1mil + skill packs).
I'm just being the devil's advocate to prevent bad surprises, I'm almost not a power gamer any more because of you guys
and for that:
Dwarfrunner wrote: I liked the idea of toughness of schedule being the first tie-breaker.
+1
I think was using that for the C.O. |
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Notorious_jtb |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 04, 2012 - 06:37 PM
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Joined: Sep 02, 2005
Canada
Posts: 1456
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
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To Lizardcore's question:
I still had fun at the World Cup but there was a heightened level of seriousness of course.
Some of the teams oponents were a bad time, but overall it was good. I think the language barrier is a challenge as well. Not a problem in NA, except for you lizzie
I personally would like the tournament to be competitive but fun as well.
That Tier business is just not common knowledge in Canada I don't think hence no one paying much attention. If you look at Canada there is a very different balance of races played. Which affected the races we took to the World Cup. I think we would change maybe 2-3 races if we really analyse the stats. e.g. we had no wood elf team.....
That French tournament sounds a little extreme but interested to hear how it goes!!
Out of interest, what is your break down of the tiers under the World Cup II rules?
GOod discussion! |
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Lizardcore |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 05, 2012 - 07:34 AM
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Joined: Apr 07, 2004
Posts: 513
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tier 1
Wood Elves, Undead, rcs, Chaos Dwarfs, NEcr, Lizardmen, Dwarves, Amaznes, Dark Elves, Norses, Skaven
tier 2
High Elves, Pro Elves, Humans, Slanns, Chas, Chaos PAct, Nurgle, Kemrhi, Underworld
tier 3
gobelins, vampires, ogres, halflings (Gobs and Ogres are smetime shifted to the tier 2 when extra-money is distributed)
Some of the idea being tested:
1.1, 1.2, 1.25 mil for the starting roster (inducements allowed). 5 skills for the tier1, 6 for the tier 2 and 3. A free mutation fr nurgle, Chaos and Chaos pact teams. This has a tendency to enrich the diversity, especially in Underworld and Chaos pact.
So, just to show an example with 1.15mil vs 1.1mil:
In the tier 1: Doesnt change much for amazones and orcs and dwarfs (they already have full positionnal + 3 RR), help a lot the WE and DE and Lizardmen and Chaos Dwarves and Necro (now have access to full positionnal + 3 RR), helps a bit the Skaven and Norse and Undead. => you end up with 5 advantaged rosters (WE, DE, Liz, CD, U - the necro could be there as well), and 3 that are not so good anymore (A, O, D). Doesnt change much for tier 2 and 3. |
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Daggers |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 05, 2012 - 09:12 AM
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Joined: Dec 07, 2006
Canada
Posts: 1618
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
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Hmm, that is interesting. Thanks Liz. I can see what you mean. But again, it only affects the more balanced teams. The tier 2 and 3 are simply given more bonuses, doesn’t mean they will necessarily be stronger or more competitive, maybe just that they won’t be considered as weak as the other teams.
When you say some rosters are “advantaged†by these changes, you mean it helps them more, whereas the other teams were already “maximized†for lack of a better term, and the additional money/skills/whatever really doesn’t make a difference to their rosters. That is interesting, I have always wondered how this is done. But that is for another conversation at another time.
I actually like what you mentioned, it doesn’t necessarily hinder the usual teams, but gives the other teams a little more incentive to be played. Again, trying to bring diversity.
Lizardcore wrote: I'm just being the devil's advocate to prevent bad surprises, I'm almost not a power gamer any more because of you guys
But aren’t we more fun to play with now that you aren’t. ;P |
_________________
Stunty Champion: Golden Sweetbun I-V , Canadian Open 2014-2015, Brewhouse Bowl 2015 (all with the EPIC IRON CHEFS)
Check out NAFCANADA.ca for the latest tournaments in Canada.
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