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Spazzfist |
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Post subject:
 Posted: Nov 29, 2004 - 05:20 AM
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Zombie wrote: And yes, i have played vampires before, for about 20+ games. The team looked very different back then but the basic principle stands.
What part of that didn't you understand? After i posted this, you asked for my advice. If you don't want it, don't ask for it!
I guess I didn't understand the part where "back then" was almost ten years ago and "the team looked very different then" meant that team roster you played no longer exists, and any strategies you used are no longer available to me.
I made it clear that I am playing in a league now with current edition rules. I am looking for advice on the current team roster. You cannot tell me that this is going to help me:
Zombie wrote: The vampire lord got to do most of the stuff, but the thralls got their fair share as well. The other vamps didn't do all that much. I started with few vamps and lots of rerolls and didn't regret it one bit.
With no vampire lord being available any more - who is supposed to do most of the work? The thralls? The vamps? This is the dilemma I am faced with and having been seeking advice on.
Zombie wrote: I try to be helpful and you just waste my time...
Thanks for the offer to help. Zombie, but unless you can explain to me how this is meant to help me, it is you that wasted your own time. |
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#1 Nurgle coach in Canada (formerly the world!)
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Grumbledook |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 29, 2004 - 05:25 AM
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to be fair saying that the team looked very different back then but the principle was the same was misleading, able to have 12 vamps and the OFAB rules being vastly different makes it a different team imho
sure the starting with more thralls and rerolls still applies but like you said same with starting wood elves or chaos dwarfs
Having played iirc 9 games with mine and not lost a game i went 2v 5rr 7ff route
I wouldn't start with 1 cause the combo of having one gaze the corner of a cage and the other blitzing in is not worth overlooking.
Also 2 players with av8 and regen makes you that touch more durable. You don't have to use both or either vamps each and every turn. 1 vamp will also put a large target on his head.
Now as I have played chaos dwarfs a lot I am used to using the 6337 statline that thralls have. They are by no means weak, just have a bit of a low av. If early yon you use them to get spp and get some guard block tackle. You can really muck in with them and if they do die well they are 40k. You can freeboot them at 20k and use that single thrall to bite on during the match till he goes. Remember you can bite already stunned thralls.
If you use the thralls to move to a square next to where you move a vamp, as long as you only want to do a move (and then maybe gaze) then if you fail the roll you can just move where you wanted anyway, gaze and then bite the thrall.
All this time the vamps will be picking up the odd spp and gaining skills as well. I use them to oversee the team and to get in there to tidy things up should plays start going pear shape. |
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'Boomshanker an Interception'
Jon
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Spazzfist |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 29, 2004 - 05:36 AM
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Thanks GD for the great advice! This I can use! 
So you would reccomend block and guard for the thralls, eh? I was thinking dirty layer to try to even the casualty score a bit. But I can see your point.
I have been using the thralls as you say - like the carrot on the stick - they go where the vamps need to be, and so if the OFAB roll is failed, then at least they are moving in the right direction.
The hypnotic gaze is still being figured out for all of it's possibilities. I think that I am going to start a new thread to ask questions I have about this team, as there are a few, including HG.
In my line-up I tend to put the thralls forward and hold the vmaps back, that way they are the effective deep defense, and when the play moves forward the vamps have the "carrots" in front and do not have to dodge as they would if they were on the front line and fail an OFAB roll.
Thanks again Grumbledook!
Spazz |
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GalakStarscraper |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 29, 2004 - 06:55 AM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
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Zombie wrote: That was back in 3rd ed, i think somewhere around 1995 or 1996. Back then, the team had a vampire lord (same stats and cost as the star, no negatives, can earn SPPs), up to 12 other vamps (6448 Off for a bite, Regenerate, Hypnotic gaze) and thralls same as now.
The vampire lord got to do most of the stuff, but the thralls got their fair share as well. The other vamps didn't do all that much. I started with few vamps and lots of rerolls and didn't regret it one bit.
ENTIRELY different team Zombie ... the principals are so different.
The Thralls were AV 8 which meant they were a lot more durable and were 10k extra.
Hypnotic Gaze was a free action making it very powerful.
The Vampire Lord was completely sick on the team.
You could have up to 12 Vampires which allowed to you to work around the OFAB negaskills but just buying more Vampires. And OFAB NEVER injured your own team.
Rerolls were 50k each.
Vampires progressed at 1/2 SPPs.
============================================
Comparing that old team to this new one is not even close to being the same. And yes I've played both. I played the Vampires in 3rd edition to the top of my tabletop league. My Vampire Lord scored 27 touchdowns in 13 games and racked up 118 SPPs in those 13 games ... if not for 1/2 rate SPP growth he would have been a complete monster. I also had 8! Vampires on that team which meant that even with OFAB I reguarly fielded 4 of them with no negative skills at all as OFAB was solely an off pitch negatrait.
I've played this new team and its entirely different. The biggest change to tactics being Hypnotic Gaze. Useable only during a Move Action and as an AG roll that ends your movement dramatically alters strategy with the team. And its not free by a long shot. You have to balance the risk of failing the Bloodlust roll vs using Hypnotic Gaze.
I played the Vampire team in 3rd edition Zombie and it was full on broken ... waaaayyy too good. To compare this new team to that team ... well its just not even close to being the same creature.
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Sputnik |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 29, 2004 - 07:20 AM
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You forgot to mention that under 3rd, you could get rid of negtraits as well. That also helped having a certain amount of vampires on the pitch at any time. 
And since the OFAB was indeed only an off pitch skill, you could concentrate more on using rr for conmpensating your lack of other skills without the fear of ripping apart your team yourself. 
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KarlLagerbottom |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 29, 2004 - 09:39 AM
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This might be a stupid question, but I interpreted the Hypno rule that it can be use in place of a block, or at the end of the move. I sort-of put these two together and assumed that the moving Hypno would take the place of the Blitz action. Is that incorrect?
If it is correct, then the Vamp on the corner of the cage would need to have one standing at the corner of the cage to begin with. He would need to do his Hyno, and the other would have to come in to do the Blitz.
Assuming that this is correct, and that the cage is made up of STR 3 players, wouldn't it be better to have the first Vamp throw a 2D block, and then have the second guy blitz? Why bother then with HG at all?
Given that the OFAB is a constant for either, is there a big statistical advantage to just gazing at the opponent as opposed to knocking him down? (Even if the cage is made up of STR 4 guys...all it will take is one assist to get the 2D block anyway...saving the blitz for someone else.)
-Rob
P.S. I guess this is all moot if the moving hypno doesn't count as a blitz, so if someone could clear that up for me I'd appreciate it. |
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Spazzfist |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 29, 2004 - 09:43 AM
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KarlLagerbottom wrote: I guess this is all moot if the moving hypno doesn't count as a blitz, so if someone could clear that up for me I'd appreciate it.
It's moot! Hypno is a "free" action, not limiting the moving and hitting of other players.
Spazz |
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Grumbledook |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 29, 2004 - 10:00 AM
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hypo isn't a free action any more
you can only use it in a move action and it ends your movement
the roll is against the ag so for vamps 3+ -1 for each extra tz other than the target |
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Mordredd |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 29, 2004 - 10:15 AM
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Well it is free, like a foul, in that it doesn't cost you a square of MA to use it. (And therefore doesn't require a blitz action.)
It's not free in that you can only use it during a move action, but then that's not how I use the term "free" in a BB game myself. (Is that just me?)
Still I had thought that it was all pretty clearly worded in the rules review, except maybe for that "any move action" bit which is a little open to misunderstanding. |
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KarlLagerbottom |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 29, 2004 - 10:24 AM
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Sorry...I'm afraid that doesn't clear it up enough for me.
As an example...can one vampire run up to a cage and hypnotize the corner guy...THEN have another vampire move to blitz the ball carrier?
-Rob |
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Grumbledook |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 29, 2004 - 10:34 AM
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yes rob
going back to the free action hyp gaze was free in the sense of 3rd eidition it didn't cost a square of movement and you could use it at any time during either your action or someone else on your teams action and then take your own action with that player later in the turn |
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Jon
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Spazzfist |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 29, 2004 - 10:35 AM
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KarlLagerbottom wrote: As an example...can one vampire run up to a cage and hypnotize the corner guy...THEN have another vampire move to blitz the ball carrier?
Apparently so. Grumbledook did mention that in a post at the top of pg 5 of this thread as one of the reasons to take more than one vampire. |
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Francesco |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 29, 2004 - 11:05 AM
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| In 3rd ediction Luthor could run on the cage, hypnotize one of the corners and blitz the ball carrier in the same action. |
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Graf_Arnhelm |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 29, 2004 - 11:50 AM
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Spazz, I read you on the other thread. Here goes:
I don't have much to say that hasn't already been said.
I use 2 Vamps, 10 Thralls, 4 RR and FF 8 to start with. Leaves 20k in the treasury for the post-game.
Usually, I start by sending my Vamps on opposing key players: first send a Trall who'll be able to assist or help overcome failed BL, then send the Vamp to Blitz (or Block if the opponent is next to him).
My Thralls do most of the work in the first games and tend to get SPPs from TDs and PCs. The Vamps get SPPs from CASs and the odd TD.
So far, I couldn't play League games, only one-off, so what skills to take? Hmm...I guess I'll go the way most Coaches go on other threads: Pro, Block, Dodge for Vamps, though I'll try to give some rarer skills as soon as I can buy a 3rd Vamp (maybe Catch, Mighty Blow, don't know yet).
Block and Dirty Player for the Thralls, but one should become a catcher (Catch, Sure Hands or Nerves of Steel) asap, another one accordingly a thrower. One Thrall with Leader is cool, too, as more RRs are always helpful.
The first thing to buy after the first games are an Apothecary and at least one new Thrall. I'd also buy some Cheerleaders and Assistant Coaches, but that's just me, they don't seem to have much impact on the league I've heard of.
I only played my Vamps 7 times so far, but won my last 2 and came close to winning the one before that. The "Sick"em, boys" tactic and cage building seem to work fine, but that advise works for many teams, so...
But from the beginning, I lead the CASs For column, with at least 3 CASs (always at least one Dead) per game (3 Dead and 1 NI in my first game against Elves was neat). |
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GalakStarscraper |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 29, 2004 - 11:55 AM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
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KarlLagerbottom wrote: Sorry...I'm afraid that doesn't clear it up enough for me.
As an example...can one vampire run up to a cage and hypnotize the corner guy...THEN have another vampire move to blitz the ball carrier?
-Rob
Yes
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