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Hoshi_Komi |
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Post subject:
 Posted: May 12, 2006 - 01:54 PM
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Joined: Nov 23, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 550
Location: United States of America
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| uh....rob doesn't win any best painted awards.... |
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KarlLagerbottom |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 12, 2006 - 02:43 PM
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Joined: May 25, 2004
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Spazzfist wrote:
And jumping in here wihtout having read anything else of this discussion brings me to two points:
1) We should get this thread back on track
2) Why are people allowed to win the best Painted award when they do not paint the models themselves? This to me seems a bit unfair. I think that I will be making efforts to rectify this for the Q'ermitt.
My official response:
1. BLUP BLUP BLUP
2. GLUCK GLUCK GLUCK
My aren't we steadfast and officious. Perhaps Spazzfist no longer captures your essence Mr. Craig Esq.
EDIT: I just thought I'd throw this back in because I think you missed it on the last page:
Quote:
P.S. I myself can't pait at all, and get most of my creative itch scratched by modeling and conversions. That said...having a nicely painted team for me to play with...and for my opponent to play against...is very important to me. I will commission someone to paint my teams, or buy them pre-painted. Problem solved...that's the way I handle it and I don't begrudge the winners of "Best Painted" because I am not elidgable because I don't paint my own teams. (And BTW...sometimes the winner of that award at a given tourney doesn't have a better looking team than mine...it's just that I didn't paint it so I am not a candidate for that award. Oh Well.) |
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Karl Lagerbottom - Dwarf Blocker of Renown
NAF Member #5236
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Last edited by KarlLagerbottom on May 12, 2006 - 02:54 PM; edited 1 time in total
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KarlLagerbottom |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 12, 2006 - 02:46 PM
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nyarlathotep |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 12, 2006 - 03:01 PM
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Mekboy
Joined: Mar 15, 2006
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I'll jump in here, although I don't intend to go the the Brouhaha; I like the way the painting rules are setup.
I notice that they are going to be the same at the Chaos Cup, which I do intend to attend.
The reasons why I like the painting rule is that it is easily quantifiable. Therefore, my 8-year old daughter (who has begun to play Bloodbowl) can paint to the standard required by these rules.
I personally don't enjoy playing metal teams. They are hard to see, and harder to identify players apart. I don't enjoy playing against them even more.
If the tournament organizer wants to help out my ability to see my opponent's players, and my opponents ability to discern which of my players is which by the use of some rules which anyone with 3 minutes and 2 different colored jars of paint (mix them for the third color) can attain, so much the better.
The way I look at it, if my opponent's minis aren't painted, he's valuing winning too much and I'll mark him down on his sportsmanship, regardless of whether there are painting points calculated into the final results. |
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Crawling Chaos since 1842...B.C.
My Tournament Record
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Spazzfist |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 12, 2006 - 03:40 PM
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Joined: Aug 16, 2004
Canada
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KarlLagerbottom wrote: AND WE NOW RETURN YOU TO YOUR REGULARY SCHEDULED PROGRAMMING...we wouldn't want Spazzfist coming down on us for discussing anything but the Brouhaha is this thread.
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Don't make me come down there!  |
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ryltar |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 12, 2006 - 04:15 PM
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Joined: Jan 28, 2006
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nyarlathotep wrote: The reasons why I like the painting rule is that it is easily quantifiable. Therefore, my 8-year old daughter (who has begun to play Bloodbowl) can paint to the standard required by these rules.
If the tournament organizer wants to help out my ability to see my opponent's players, and my opponents ability to discern which of my players is which by the use of some rules which anyone with 3 minutes and 2 different colored jars of paint (mix them for the third color) can attain, so much the better.
Sadly this is not the case. 2 points are devoted to 'detailed painting' and 2 points are devoted to 'textured basing (not just painted)'. This is well above the means of 3 minutes and two jars of paint.
I do agree with your sentiment. I would actually prefer a 'your team must be painted three colors to play' rule over the current one (though I am not particularly inclined to have a painting rule at all). I don't think the 10 points really accomplishes what you are looking for. It just annoys people. It makes those without painted teams not show up rather than paint their teams. And it makes people not show up on principle.
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I personally don't enjoy playing metal teams. They are hard to see, and harder to identify players apart. I don't enjoy playing against them even more.
I don't either. It hurts my sensibilities. But I don't think that tourney points are going to get the desired effect, regardless of whether you consider the 10 points a bonus or a penalty.
I guess this is all moot anyway, as Malifaxis has said he wont change the rule. It is unfortunate because while it is meant well I don't think it will have the desired effect.
And just so everyone knows, I am sick of hearing 'its just ten points'. It is the LAMEST argument ever. This is a tourney. There is no number of points awarded that could not make or break someone's victory (and if there was, then those points shouldn't be awarded).
Greg |
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KarlLagerbottom |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 12, 2006 - 05:07 PM
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Joined: May 25, 2004
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ryltar wrote:
And just so everyone knows, I am sick of hearing 'its just ten points'. It is the LAMEST argument ever. This is a tourney. There is no number of points awarded that could not make or break someone's victory (and if there was, then those points shouldn't be awarded).
Greg
Greg-
Personally, and try not to take this too harshly...I think it is much lamer to belabour the point when you yourself state that you prefer playing with painted minis yourself.
There are plenty of reasons why people will, or won't, make it to a tournament. Just like everything else...it is what it is. Make your decision to go based on what the rules/environment will be and leave it at that.
Your statement that that people's opinions are "lame" has a fairly negative tone...especially considering how folks chafed at the earlier comment dismissing the views of those who prefer playing over painting.
-RobO |
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Karl Lagerbottom - Dwarf Blocker of Renown
NAF Member #5236
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Zinak |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 12, 2006 - 08:48 PM
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Joined: Aug 06, 2003
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'its just ten points'
Zinak |
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"It's just 10 points"
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ryltar |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 13, 2006 - 01:09 AM
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KarlLagerbottom wrote: ryltar wrote:
And just so everyone knows, I am sick of hearing 'its just ten points'. It is the LAMEST argument ever. This is a tourney. There is no number of points awarded that could not make or break someone's victory (and if there was, then those points shouldn't be awarded).
Greg
Greg-
Personally, and try not to take this too harshly...I think it is much lamer to belabour the point when you yourself state that you prefer playing with painted minis yourself.
There are plenty of reasons why people will, or won't, make it to a tournament. Just like everything else...it is what it is. Make your decision to go based on what the rules/environment will be and leave it at that.
Your statement that that people's opinions are "lame" has a fairly negative tone...especially considering how folks chafed at the earlier comment dismissing the views of those who prefer playing over painting.
-RobO
EDIT: objectionable - self edited
I apologize I didn't make what I meant clear. I said the discussion was moot. I accept the fact that its Malifax's show, and he can run it however he wants to. I felt it would be of use to let him know how I felt, and how that may affect my decision to come. Despite this event being right in my back yard, with a principal objection to the painting score and considering several people (not you RobO) seeming to take a very poor approach to this kind of discussion I don't currently feel inclined. If you want to brand me as one of them based on my lame comment fine. If they want to consider me 'no big loss' then I think I will be the one not losing.
But seriously, I do ask the organizer, and those others commenting on the subject of 'just ten points' to seriously think about what they are trying to accomplish. Thus far turning me off from attending has worked quite well (thank you Zinak for driving the point home). If it is 'just ten points', as in they really don't consider it a loss, what level of motivation will it provide for anyone to attend the event with a painted team as opposed to an unpainted one (which is supposed to be the goal)? How much of these 'just ten points' are going to really reward someone who does chose to go out of his way to attend with a painted team? I have fully painted teams... well, one that meets all the standards at any rate, and if you wanted to apply the 'representative' clause I'd lose all four as my elves are painted as drow (no such thing in BloodHammer world). Those ten points, even with me likely getting many if not all of them, still make me seriously consider whether I chose to invest time in this event. In theory the 'just ten points' are there to make people paint their teams. Are you really accomplishing this? Are you sufficiently motivating? Are you just dissuaiding enough to accomplish what I would hope is the least desirable effect - that is reduce the number of people interested in attending your event?
To be more civil than 'lame', take my statement to have been: Noting the smallness of a penalty is not justification for it.
If Zinak, Malifaxis, or whoever want to give me reasons why they think the 10 points is justified, I welcome comments like that (and have even seen some). But justifying the points as 'a mere 10 points' is dismissive and I think rude. Its an argument a kindergardner could have come up with. Again I am saying I've seen decent justifications (that I disagree with) here as to why those points are there, even if sometimes I had to infer from their statements. I just wish they would consider the situation beyond the level of simply dismissing my qualm as irrelevant (especially if they want this 'irrelevant' qualm to motivate people to paint their teams). I hope they choose to think on this matter, I am not asking them to agree with me, in fact I don't expect it. Just think about it a little.
I will skip trying to make an argument about ten points not being small because I doubt they would be swayed.
I also ask them to consider my thoughts, and the oppinions posted by gken1 and Uthrac. I invite anyone who feels motivated to paint his or her team specifically for those ten points to speak up. This is what their 'just ten points' have accomplished thus far.
I hope I didn't insult anyone I tried to keep it positive.
Now I open the floor to Zinak to take more cheapshots at me at his leisure. I'll leave it to y'all to discuss.
Greg |
Last edited by ryltar on May 14, 2006 - 08:42 AM; edited 2 times in total
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bampf |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 13, 2006 - 07:38 PM
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Joined: Jul 01, 2004
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So not wanting to invest a few hours in a hobby you supposedly love is akin to being owned by another human being? Well, your noble desire to dig an Underground Railroad for your bare metal mini brethren is impressive, indeed.
Wow, and 'just 10 points' is a lame argument?
If you don t see the point of putting some kind of real value on an important aspect of the hobby that adds to the enjoyment of all and want to nitpick about rules that are in place for most NAF sanctioned tourneys then, by all accounts, you re really making yourself sound like the kind of person who is not fun to have at a tourney. The point of these things is to have fun... if you are taking such a ridiculously disproportional stance over a very mere 10 points then you re establishing yourself as someone who is not going to add to the tourney.
The real reason we drive 8 hours to Beantown (besides for Fire and Ice) is to hang out and have fun with the cool people we wouldn t otherwise ever meet. Ergo, my initial comment of no big loss. |
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Clan_Skaven |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 13, 2006 - 09:51 PM
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Joined: Aug 19, 2003
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Posts: 2604
Location: Niagara Falls ON, Canada
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Ok I'm far to lazy to read the whole argument (man thats really lazy  )
I will just state my opinion on the topic.
I say that all teams should be eligable for the 10 points for painting scores.
But if you did not paint your team you should not be in for best painted! (ya you still get points for painting just no awards for best painted)
Agree or disagree....
Thats how I see it.
Rod |
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Host of the Warpstone Cup, Q'ermitt Bowl & the Hope Bowl
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Zinak |
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Post subject: WOW
Posted: May 14, 2006 - 02:26 AM
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Joined: Aug 06, 2003
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Quote:
consider slavery. If you are a white man in 1850s South, you are safe. Should you therefore not be rankled by the enslavement of your fellow darker skinned human beings?
All I can say is WOW!!!!! I can t find any way that painting up some minis for a tourny can be anything like slavery..... reaching for something I would guess...
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Now I open the floor to Zinak to take more cheapshots at me at his leisure.
I have yet to take a cheap shot at you and really don t want to waste my time doing it.
As far as I am concerned "Its still just 10 points" Masta!!!
Quote:
The point of these things is to have fun... if you are taking such a ridiculously disproportional stance over a very mere 10 points then you re establishing yourself as someone who is not going to add to the tourney.
Perfect!!
Zinak |
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KarlLagerbottom |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 14, 2006 - 08:32 AM
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Joined: May 25, 2004
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Yeah...lets move on to a far more important topic...FIRE AND ICE!!!!
I think that anyone who doesn't eat one meal at Fire And Ice the weekend of the Brouhaha sould be deducted 11 points.
I know that 11 points might seem alot, but if having slaves counts for 10, I can't really go much over that so...11 it is.
DISCLAIMER: This thread is by no means meant as making light of Slavery as a concept or the cause of a social condition. I am merely further reinforcing the magnitude of the ridiculousness of evoking it in a discussion over Blood Bowl tournament points.
Ryltar: Your preface warning that you were about to "Blow Out Of Poportion" the discussion thread...is not really good enough. That smacks of an after thought when you realised that slavery is not quite comparing apples to apples in a thread of a hobby site. What you should have done instead...was hold of on your reply all together until you had come up with a better analogy. |
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Karl Lagerbottom - Dwarf Blocker of Renown
NAF Member #5236
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ryltar |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 14, 2006 - 08:57 AM
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Joined: Jan 28, 2006
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My sincerest apologies. It was late, it was poor judgement.
I removed the reference. The disclaimer was there before the edit... (note how Zinak's quote starts with a small case letter, because he cut out that part of the sentence) I still removed the whole thing, because it was a poor choice.
Point was, just because you aren't affected by a ruling, you shouldn't accept it if you think it is objectionable.
Again, sorry. 
Since I am bothering to post, bampf and Zinak, I am sorry to have distracted you form my point with what was a poorly thought out opening. It was late, like 3 AM. Things happen.
The point I was trying to make is 10 points wont do what you want it to. It'll annoy people. It wont make them paint their teams. The Eucalyptus Bowl penalizes you 6 points per game (out of 30 pts for a win) for an unpainted team. THAT would motivate someone to paint a team. 10 points out of 300... well that just got me to walk into my own trap So our 'mere 10 points' isn't doing what you want it to, and it isn't in line with what I would be interested in.
But like I said, its Malifax's show. I was, perhaps foolishly, just trying to give him another perspective on the event.
Just make sure they get all your fish cooked all the way through  at Fire and Ice - some of my friends have had some bad experiences there. That way you get your 11 points, and you can go back for the second day of games!
Greg |
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Uthrac |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 15, 2006 - 06:27 AM
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Joined: Jan 09, 2006
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Sadly, what could have been a constructive discussion has turned into the usual - - nobody effectively listening, or even attempting to understand, someone else's point of view. Just dig-in your heels and make smart remarks intended to enflame others.
To summarize my POV, I will not be attending events where "painting is used as a scoring tiebreaker." I have many teams which would earn all 10 points - - at no time have I pushed to field 11 carboard squares - - but I object to the principle.
I sincerely hope that everyone who attends has a great time at the tournament. I feel that it's important that you know the reasons people choose not to attend events, as this gives you the opportunity to change the format in the future, if you so choose.
You need to understand that you are losing potential [local] players because of the current painting scoring guidelines, and because of the negativity expressed by a few outspoken members on this thread.
If anything, you should be grateful that there are people who will tell you what can be done to "improve" (i.e. make an event more "accessable") then just sit in silence and not come.
Do as you will with the information.
~Uthrac |
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