 |
|
|
|
| Author |
Message |
Da_Scum |
|
Post subject: The NEW Broken Kick-off table
 Posted: Dec 01, 2004 - 12:57 AM
|
|
Joined: Feb 14, 2003
Undisclosed
Posts: 194
Location: Undisclosed
Status: Offline
|
|
This is what happens when I'm busy with Life and not able to pay attention to what the BBRC is trying to slip past us... 
Now, let me gets this out of the way, there is an awful lot I like in the current review that shows some thought...fixing the broken Chaos Dwarves FINALLY should make things far more interesting in Tournament play for example.
And the rest follows fine...like fixing what was a broken handicap table, seeing that some results gave "flavour" unless tweaked by house-rules they really could end up doing nothing for the unbalanced match. (It's why the TBBF for example came up with an "improved" Handicap table)
It's when I get to the "new and improved" Kick-off table my jaw simply drops and I suddenly realized that they've finally given reason NEVER to play some teams in tournaments ever again.  And yes the Goblins are one example...
They've made four "corrections" to the table. Now the first one "Riot" into "Injury Time" actually isn't a bad one. It could either lose one turn or gain a turn for both opponents. Though it does cut into the sudden blow-out of losing six turns and only having a two turn half...in the end having the new rule either just lose or even GAIN one turn for both players is full of possibilities....this one I'm more than willing to give a try.
It's the other three changes that are completely whacked in the head if looked at from a tournament perspective. (Something the BBRC seems to keep not quite wrapping their heads around, or at least not enough of them at any rate.)
"Get the Ref" now just removes the referee....well thank you but you just handed the game to whomever has "General" skill as a selection, oh and made fan factor useless for this. So far from adding balance, you just removed it from the tournament system.
"Blitz" Huh? What was broken about it before? Now only players not in a Tackle Zone can do anything? Once again advantage will go to certain teams and is removed from others who either lack certain player types or skills. Again, where does this add balance in tournaments?
"Pitch Invasion" This one is insult to injury! What is this the NFL or BLOODBOWL!?!  Again balance is REMOVED from tournaments and given to teams that don't need it. Again, fan factor is made useless, as what good is a "stun" really at times when what a team really needs is something to maybe break things open or get them back in it. But making it BOTH teams is just insane if one is arguing balance. In tournaments sometimes the only chance a low armour team might have of maybe FINALLY getting a few of those "thicker than hell" armour teams off the pitch is for this to kick in. Now both teams get to roll for stuns, knowing full well it highly favours the High Armour teams, as what does he have to worry about? (Yes I hear that "fouling" arguement, well the lower armour is a LOT more vulnerable to that isn't he? And what's to stop Mr. Thick-Armour from rolling all those sixes? Sorta kills the arguement on the "luck factor" there, at least the High FF team EARNED his invasion and the result in comparison.)
Another step in making Fan-Factor utterly useless. Did it ever occur to the BBRC what effect these "balances" would really have in the tournaments? (This goes to an earlier arguement that we seem to be heading towards TWO seperate rules lists, one for leagues, the other for tournaments, but I digress.)
There HAS been progress made in getting the teams into a more level curve when in tournaments, that first tweak to the CD's noted earlier showing that there really is honest interest in this. Why then did they not see what impact "NFL'ing" the Kick-off table would have to those teams that NEED to buy FF as one of the few ways to try and level the playing field against their more "skilled" opponents? The "Bloodbowl" Kick-off table meant there were four catagories in which FF could swing something and swing it well. (Or help protect them from the more skilled team in Get the Ref.) Now FF is only good for two things and useless in the other two...both of which have been "corrected" to instead of redressing an inbalance, rather they now ENHANCE the imbalance and make it all the worse!
If this is what's in store for 2005....we'd better hurry up and do TWO rules lists, otherwise the "corrected" League ones are going to unbalance the tournament ones in the favour of all the teams that didn't need any more advantages. And wasn't that the point of the BBRC in the first place, to stop that from happening?  |
_________________
"Even the Goblin Coach eats the +1 to Injury roll..."
|
| |
|
|
|
 |
|
Bevan |
|
|
Post subject: Balance
Posted: Dec 01, 2004 - 03:49 AM
|
|
Joined: Feb 13, 2003
Posts: 194
Status: Offline
|
|
I'm not sure what the problem is here, since you want more "balance".
Pitch Invasion used to have the possibility that one team would have up to 6 players injured and the other would be unharmed. Was that balanced?
You imply that the new rule is harder on low AV teams, but AV is not rolled. All players affected are "stunned".
You also complained about the lack of FF affect, but the team with higher FF has more chance of stunning opponents.
The original Blitz was badly unbalanced, often making it relatively easy for the kicking team to get the ball with little effort. With a minor change the number of moving players has been limited, although not necessarily reduced.
Your post suggests that the only chance for weak teams (e.g. Goblins) was the chance of getting a totally one-sided kickoff result that handed them the game for no effort. I would never play a team that relied on bizarre events demolishing the other team rather than good play (but I have a Halfing team for a season in my local league) |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Spazzfist |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Dec 01, 2004 - 05:50 AM
|
|
Joined: Aug 16, 2004
Canada
Posts: 3954
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
|
|
Scum,
I must admit that my reaction was similar to yours when I read the new kick off table, and asked Galak (with no response) whether there was really that muich concern from the players that they needed to make such radical changes to the kick off table.
However, having said that, I am willing to give the new rules a try before passing final judgement. I think that there may be potential, and as Bevan points out, they might not be as unbalanced as you think.
Spazz |
_________________
#1 Nurgle coach in Canada (formerly the world!)
#1 Snotling coach in Canada
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Hoshi_Komi |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Dec 01, 2004 - 06:59 AM
|
|
Joined: Nov 23, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 550
Location: United States of America
Status: Offline
|
|
get the ref is the bad one like Scum said.
get ready for dirty player wars and constant fouling when this is rolled. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Spazzfist |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Dec 01, 2004 - 07:06 AM
|
|
Joined: Aug 16, 2004
Canada
Posts: 3954
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
|
|
| I dunno.... at least this way one team does not have a distinct fouling advantage, while the other is closely watched. |
_________________
#1 Nurgle coach in Canada (formerly the world!)
#1 Snotling coach in Canada
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Sputnik |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Dec 01, 2004 - 07:21 AM
|
|
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
Posts: 512
Status: Offline
|
|
while not having much experience with the new table yet, I cannot completely follow your arguments. 
Quote: "Get the Ref" now just removes the referee....well thank you but you just handed the game to whomever has "General" skill as a selection, oh and made fan factor useless for this. So far from adding balance, you just removed it from the tournament system.
In tournaments, the old GTR could have had a very drastic effect if one side won it early. And if this team additionally had a dirty player, this might as well have decided the game. Not really balanced. 
With the new GTR, everyone can foul back for free, and a dirty player on either side may be useful. Which team did you have in mind that doesn't have access to gen skills? The new ogres? In most tournaments, adding one skill after each round leaves you with many choices. If you think dirty player is most powerful, go for it. But I doubt that people will take dirty player "only" beacuse of the new GTR. In leagues however, you only need a double to get your stunty guy the dirty player skill. If you think that this is more helpful than other skills, it should be your first choice now. :wink:However, this doesn't appear to be more unbalanced as the old version, and for tournaments it's not removed. I can rather imagine foul festivals. 
Quote: "Blitz" Huh? What was broken about it before? Now only players not in a Tackle Zone can do anything? Once again advantage will go to certain teams and is removed from others who either lack certain player types or skills. Again, where does this add balance in tournaments?
Which teams did you have in mind? And I think it helps if you have three on the line, face 4 BOs and a troll against you, and now they can't smack you for free!
Quote: "Pitch Invasion" This one is insult to injury! What is this the NFL or BLOODBOWL!?! Again balance is REMOVED from tournaments and given to teams that don't need it. Again, fan factor is made useless, as what good is a "stun" really at times when what a team really needs is something to maybe break things open or get them back in it. But making it BOTH teams is just insane if one is arguing balance. In tournaments sometimes the only chance a low armour team might have of maybe FINALLY getting a few of those "thicker than hell" armour teams off the pitch is for this to kick in
Having a higher ff helps you stunning the opponent on a 5+. Now, if you play a low AV team and you are outnumbered, I think having the possibility to roll for a stun on a 5+ for ALL 11 players of the opposing team with high AV really helps you putting some pressure on the opponent and maybe avoiding an additional block, especially if his players are slow and have to get up first. Yes, you may be unlucky and stun noone, but you may as well have 1 stun under the old version. On the other hand, if you lose a PI with your outnumbered team, you now don't get completely wiped out by a kickoff result without the opponent needing a block.
Again, I don't have much experience with the new table yet. But could you please explain a bit more the difficulties you have?
Sputnik |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Hoshi_Komi |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Dec 01, 2004 - 08:06 AM
|
|
Joined: Nov 23, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 550
Location: United States of America
Status: Offline
|
|
yeah but before if the team that got the ref and didn't have a dirty player he could choose not to enter the foul war.....
now it's a foul war regardless |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Da_Scum |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Dec 01, 2004 - 11:10 AM
|
|
Joined: Feb 14, 2003
Undisclosed
Posts: 194
Location: Undisclosed
Status: Offline
|
|
Okay time for rebuttal...
Some are saying "Pitch Invasion" as it was isn't balanced... ha!
At least there one team won it (or possibly both if they somehow tied), there was no guarantee you got more than one player and what their condition was. It would take gross luck for something disasterous to happen and with the application of some maybe real hurt...heck KO is a great result, as maybe it gets that opponent off the pitch!
Under the new one since BOTH get it this can be a real disaster....oh sure FF benifits one team in that they get plus one to stun...I say this, BIG DEAL. (And sure it's stunned, but who cares when a stun hits? He's
down but bigger AV means you try to foul the guy! Sorry Beven but you missed the whole point there.) Your opponent is still on the field ready to hurt you in a turn or two, meanwhile with a bit of that "luck" he's suddenly returned the favour or made it even worse for you! At NO cost to him in FF. So despite the higher FF you went and lost the Pitch Invasion, that's balanced? So it might have taken a huge swing of luck for that fluke 6 injured result, but now the other opponents can pull a 11 stunned result to exploit in a swing of luck AT NO COST!
This application of FF was one of it's great uses of the "17th player" concept, as teams with possible high FF in tournaments were the "squishies" most of the time and this gave them a chance to do what they couldn't do, finally hurt the other team. It's a slim chance (1 in 36) but it was nice to know it was there...now it's yet another thing to dread that favours a heavy hitting high armour team.
Besides, any true fan of the game wants his kids to come home with a confirmed KILL! What's this stunned crud? We have a kidder gentler generation of fans now? Higher FF gives me a bigger chance to stun, again, big deal.
On "blitz" some say it was far to easy for other teams to grab the ball...funny under the new way I'd like to see a dwarf team pull that one off as often as it's implied!  Instead now it's going to be those fast and zippy teams who'll have the only realistic crack at getting that ball.
Nice to see the new "Get the Ref" is getting through to people it's implications...welcome back to 3rd Edition!  Some think the
old one was out of whack and could heavily favour one team, let's see
1 in 18 odds and it was only from that point and for that half. If your team can exploit this great but more often it just gave a threat for only a short time, and if you happen to be a stunty team well no DP unless you're tournament director happens to allow doubles. (which they have to think about applying where, while the "general" team has no such problems) The NEW one now make both teams get it no matter who invested in the FF, and there starts a fouling war which could heavily favour the team without the FF. Did it occur that the high FF team might have wanted to win it to prevent the fouling they DON'T have the DP's for?
Now before leaping to conclusions a few of us here HAVE been testing out the new table in a tournament environment, that's how we started noticing the real problems with it. (That's how we noticed that the "fixed" blitz and the new "Get the Ref" had problems, and it just confirmed first impression on the "Pitch Invasion"....however did like the "Injury time".) Now for League play maybe this "NFL'ed" list is better, it's in the tournaments where it has a greater impact.
Sure I play one of the Stunty teams, but asking around I never relied on the FF to win the game...it was the 17th player concept where it was part of a balanced strategy to stay on par with the other teams, i.e., gave them an area that WE were good in, oh sure it was only a 1 in 4 chance something would pop up, but at least I'd spent and earned that chance. Usually it's "Cheering fans"...I'll take it! But better the money spent here than on a RR, as not only is there the chance to get that RR and deny it to the opponent, but I have that slim chance at one of the other three.
Now it won't matter, as the opponent without cost gets equal crack...oh maybe he'll take a few more "stuns", but big whoop. He's still able to get up and kill you now isn't he? And now he gets the ref too for no cost? Oh this is going to hurt... We've even tried one member's PM suggestion of a team that could exploit this new version, 2 out of 3 tries it's been INCREDIBLY effective, and all for 1 FF. Mind you I want to play that a few more times to see if that's too high, or even to low, a ratio. But wow those two results were an eye-opener to how far a foul war could now get!
I think some need to relook at "balance" in the wider view, rather than in a very narrow "just that roll" kind of view to see where issues are going to creep in. Otherwise there's going to be some redressing on how some teams are built and run in tournaments. Who knows, maybe that was the whole idea of this in the first place?  |
_________________
"Even the Goblin Coach eats the +1 to Injury roll..."
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Mordredd |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Dec 01, 2004 - 11:39 AM
|
|
Joined: Mar 03, 2003
England
Posts: 728
Location: England
Status: Offline
|
|
Well you're not the first to have problems with the revised get the ref. I'm not a big fan myself, at least not without the Vaults fouling rules (including dirty player = +1 or +1).
However I think you are missing a trick on the pitch invasion. Fouling is not the only tactic it opens up. For the low AV teams (which apart from the stunties are fast too) you have the opportunity to grab the ball and score quickly whilst a good number of the (high AV) team are face down eating dirt. Exploit the gaps like a good agility coach and you're laughing. This is especially effective if the players the opposition has left back to pick up the ball are stunned and a gap or two has been left in the line. Ok stunned only is a bit lame, but from what I've seen so far in my Vault league it doesn't particularly favour any one type of team. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Spazzfist |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Dec 01, 2004 - 11:54 AM
|
|
Joined: Aug 16, 2004
Canada
Posts: 3954
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
|
|
Okay, sure things have been "nerfed" a bit, but I recall playing in a league where the Ogre team managed to secure a very high FF. Any time there was any roll for FF (get the ref, pitch invasion, etc.) he was almost guaranteed to win it. After that it was just gross.....
From what I understand that you are saying Scum (and sorry man, but you were kind of ranting in some parts) I am more in favour of the new kick off rules than ever. You claim to not be relying on getting the pitch invasion, but you do seem to spend a lot of your post talking about it. Personally, I would like to see more focus on the game - it sucks to lose because the crowd decided to kill 6 of your players.
Like Mordredd suggests, I think that you need to look at some of the other opportunities the new table provides, not just the old ones it shuts down. |
_________________
#1 Nurgle coach in Canada (formerly the world!)
#1 Snotling coach in Canada
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Da_Scum |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Dec 01, 2004 - 12:39 PM
|
|
Joined: Feb 14, 2003
Undisclosed
Posts: 194
Location: Undisclosed
Status: Offline
|
|
Spazzfist wrote: Okay, sure things have been "nerfed" a bit, but I recall playing in a league where the Ogre team managed to secure a very high FF. Any time there was any roll for FF (get the ref, pitch invasion, etc.) he was almost guaranteed to win it. After that it was just gross.....
Oh tell me about it! Pitzburk Squeakers in the TBBF exploited that one to the max in league play as he'd built up an enourmous FF. But hey he'd earned it.
But again I was pointing to tournaments, not league where I did note it could work just fine in there.
Quote: From what I understand that you are saying Scum (and sorry man, but you were kind of ranting in some parts) I am more in favour of the new kick off rules than ever. You claim to not be relying on getting the pitch invasion, but you do seem to spend a lot of your post talking about it. Personally, I would like to see more focus on the game - it sucks to lose because the crowd decided to kill 6 of your players.
I'm supposed to rant, it's in the Goblin coaches' contract under free squigs...
I'm having to focus on it as there seems to be difficulty in "grasping" what the change went and did, where that doesn't seem to be the issue with the other ones. People keep focusing on the extreme result, rather than sitting back and actually analyzing statistical probability here. The odds of that 6 deaths from crowd are so unbelievable that it makes my triple skulling three times in a row seem like an everyday occurance!
However the NEW system now not only limits any damage, it also throws in the curve ball that with a lucky streak the opponent with NO INVESTMENT does far worse to you! Using your arguement on "focus on the game" an element like that should be equally as bad, if not worse. QED What was wrong with changing it to 1d3 as many tournaments did to no complaints if that "extreme" result is such a worry?
And besides for humour's sake this is bloodbowl! I want the fans to have claws fangs and big sharp nasty teeth....not nerf weapons!
Quote: Like Mordredd suggests, I think that you need to look at some of the other opportunities the new table provides, not just the old ones it shuts down.
As noted earlier we have started doing just that, that's how we came up with where the unbalances were in a tournament system. It's how we've come up with new ways to exploit it to the maximum, which will then start getting howls of "broken". It's as said before people need to see the "NFL'ed" table in the context of the whole ball of wax and not just exclusively as just that die roll. I agree with Mordredd, oh there's great way to exploit this new table, you're just not going to like how I can exploit this. 3rd Edition lives on again! |
_________________
"Even the Goblin Coach eats the +1 to Injury roll..."
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
absent |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Dec 01, 2004 - 01:45 PM
|
|
Joined: Nov 08, 2004
Posts: 119
Status: Offline
|
|
| bleh, just goes to show you that you can't make everyone happy, but blitz, PI, and riot used to ruin games, kudos to the RR this year on fixing them. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Da_Scum |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Dec 01, 2004 - 02:27 PM
|
|
Joined: Feb 14, 2003
Undisclosed
Posts: 194
Location: Undisclosed
Status: Offline
|
|
absent wrote: bleh, just goes to show you that you can't make everyone happy, but blitz, PI, and riot used to ruin games, kudos to the RR this year on fixing them.
Hey I agree on riot, the change to "Injury Time" I think is absolutely brilliant. It's one of many kudos I give to the RR this year.
But "Blitz" wasn't broken, and in it's new form is going to make things a lot more interesting. Though I grant it's going to take a few more race on race games during the week in tournament format to see if it's really broken anew or if it's going to take readjusting.
And Pitch Invasion took such an extreme result to be broken when compared to the new one I'd gladly take my chances on the old one any day of the week! But hey Mordredd said to exploit the changes which is exactly what I aim on doing from now on. Up 3rd edition!
And I noticed the new GTR is getting a lot more shaking of heads. |
_________________
"Even the Goblin Coach eats the +1 to Injury roll..."
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Dec 01, 2004 - 02:31 PM
|
|
Joined: Feb 10, 2003
Undisclosed
Posts: 2696
Location: Undisclosed
|
|
| Bleh. Hate the new KO table. We'll be using a modified version of the 3.0 one. |
_________________
_____ and rankings - that is all
#27 of the "24 club" (due to some dodgy accounting)
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Grumbledook |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Dec 01, 2004 - 02:48 PM
|
|
Joined: Feb 10, 2003
Posts: 922
Status: Offline
|
|
The worst thing about it is if OMM rolls injury time at the kick off of each half
Now he will finish half way into the next tournament ;] |
_________________
'Boomshanker an Interception'
Jon
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
