| Author |
Message |
kalten |
|
Post subject: Throw Team Mate
 Posted: Jul 14, 2003 - 01:30 PM
|
|
Joined: Apr 13, 2003
Posts: 81
Status: Offline
|
|
Hi all,
I have found myself wondering about the things I have read here about SPPs and the Throw team mate skill.
In all the leagues and one off games I have ever played, if a player successfully lands after being thrown we have awarded an SPP for the 'completion' of the throw. It has never entered our heads that this is in any way incorrect.
A Throw is counted as a Pass action and the rules state that a completed pass is considered a 'completion' and is thus rewarded by a SPP.
I know I'm gonna have a good debate about this, but I think it needs clearing up.
your thought? |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
 |
|
Tutenkharnage |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Jul 14, 2003 - 01:47 PM
|
|
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
Posts: 620
Status: Offline
|
|
There's no "good debate" to be had. A Completion is defined in the LRB:
"A player who makes an accurate pass that is caught by another player earns 1 Star Player Point."
Nothing about TTM meets this description in its entirety.
-Chet |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
kalten |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Jul 14, 2003 - 02:08 PM
|
|
Joined: Apr 13, 2003
Posts: 81
Status: Offline
|
|
Tutenkharnage wrote: There's no "good debate" to be had. A Completion is defined in the LRB:
"A player who makes an accurate pass that is caught by another player earns 1 Star Player Point."
Nothing about TTM meets this description in its entirety.
-Chet
Well quoted my friend, but your statement about debate is wrong!
In the living rulebook (as in the original rulebook for this version of the game) it states, and I quote
"The throw is treated like a normal pass..." it then goes on to say that if the thrower has the pass skill he may use it on the throw, though he may not use accurate!
From the above and from the way the rest of page 23 in the living rule book reads the throw is treated EXACTLY like a pass and if complete is thus to be treated as a 'completion'.
To back up my aurgument a bit more:
The throw has all the same charataristics of a pass in that a 'pass' must be made and a 'catch' (landing) must be made. Indeed the throw takes up the pass action for the turn - if it wasn't subject to the same rules for reward as this, why have it treated as such? The skills needed and the penalty to the distance allowed outweigh the benefit of the player being hurled up-pitch with the ball, so all in all the Throw is a Pass...
I await your return comments
(I have to mention here that I'm being hard only to get to the bottom of this - it seems a lot of people are reading grey and seeing black and white about this) |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Jul 14, 2003 - 02:29 PM
|
|
Joined: Feb 10, 2003
Undisclosed
Posts: 2696
Location: Undisclosed
|
|
As Chet says (and he's on the BBRC, so he should know  ), a successful pass for SPP needs an accurate pass and a sucessful catch.
A TTM has a accurate pass and a sucessful landing. OK, where's the catch roll? Hmm, don't see it. Therefore no SPP.
In a way, I wish it did (my troll might learn something then  , but it doesn't, and BBRC members, JJ and Andy Hall have all said it doesn't so...... |
_________________
_____ and rankings - that is all
#27 of the "24 club" (due to some dodgy accounting)
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
kalten |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Jul 14, 2003 - 03:51 PM
|
|
Joined: Apr 13, 2003
Posts: 81
Status: Offline
|
|
mmmm...I see...
Obviously I'm wrong/stupid because I'm not on the BBRC?
...
Please take the time to think about it...In an older version of the game we had player stats for the big stars like Morg and Griff and even Bolgrot. If my memory serves I remember that there was a section that detailed number of completions, amongst other things. Are we to assume (in the spirit of the game) that these stats are completly useless these days? did Ripper Bolgrot really make all those completions, and do you really think Morg would actually pass the ball once he's got it? No I think not really, however those stats could come from throwing players successfully, as I believe they did. Therefore you can see where (in the spirit of the game) my view on the throw team mate SPP comes from.
Now in my league we do it my way, and thats up to me and my players, in your leagues you do it your way - it doesn't even matter for NAF tournys as they mostly (if not all) use a system without SPPs anyway.
I belive that you did miss my point in my last post though. The act of throwing a player does have all the same parts as a ball throw, just with different termanology to make it clear that its a player and not a ball that is thrown, even the sequence of events is the same with the same modifiers applying to the rolls. "An accurate pass is called a 'completion' or complete pass." So whats an accurate throw called?
Personaly even though I don't play with teams that use big players (well not very often if ever) I feel that the action should be rewarded as it is no less hard than to throw a pass. I just realised that you 'throw' a pass - the section in the rulebook is titled 'throwing the football' and has a section ttiled throwing! How can you sit there and say the 2 things are totaly different? It the same action with a different name!
Why deny the player a reward for the achivement of actually completing the throw - it is generally harder to do than a pass as the highest I've seen a big guy agility is 3 and thats Morg! Remeber that I'm still saying the throw has to be accurate to be awarded a SPP.
Another thing - note all the (in the spirit of the game) I put in. I feel there is a bit too much rules lawering and not enough BloodBowl fever in these forums sometimes.... |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
skummy |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Jul 14, 2003 - 04:22 PM
|
|
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
Posts: 506
Status: Offline
|
|
Darkson wrote: In a way, I wish it did (my troll might learn something then , but it doesn't, and BBRC members, JJ and Andy Hall have all said it doesn't so......
Actually, our league has an email from Andy saying that this does count as a completion, but I've had this discussion with BBRC members before. No completion point for throwing the little guys is the rule. While the mechanics are similar, it's not the same thing. Some leagues give completion points for successful handoffs, but that's not intended to be the purpose of the LRB.
Kalten: Accusing someone of being a lawyer is fightin' words where I come from! We don't think you are stupid or wrong for not being part of the BBRC. The LRB also tells you that you can run your league any way you want. These are the rules for league play though, so don't be surprised if you see it done differently elsewhere. |
_________________
The only thing to do with good advice is pass it on. It is never any use to oneself.
-Oscar Wilde
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Doubleskulls |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Jul 14, 2003 - 05:05 PM
|
|
Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Mar 05, 2003
Undisclosed
Posts: 2627
Location: Kent, UK
Status: Offline
|
|
kalten wrote: mmmm...I see...
Obviously I'm wrong/stupid because I'm not on the BBRC?
No, but any BBRC's members interpretation carries a lot more weight than yours. Even though some of their "clarifications" seem bizarre (e.g. where is the justification for Big Guys to be allowed to use Leader RRs?)
However there isn't much you can do but shrug and get on with it.
BTW I actually agree that there is no SPPs for TTM. |
_________________
Ian 'Double Skulls' Williams
SLOBB
NAF Racial Results
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
GalakStarscraper |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Jul 14, 2003 - 07:24 PM
|
|
Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 1562
Status: Offline
|
|
As a long time stunty coach ... let me add my vote that it should not count for SPPs.
Justification under current LRB 2.0 rules:
Halfling team with an rookie Ogre and a team reroll available:
Ogre throws Halfling to quick pass range for a 1 SPP completion:
29.6% chance of accurate pass with successful landing or (1 in 3.4 chance of success) ...... (33.3% chance of accurate * 88.9% chance of landing)
Now compare this to the same Ogre trying to get 2 SPPs for a block against a Human Lineman:
5.6% chance of success or (1 in 17.9 chance of success). (55.6% of a Pow or Pow/Dodge * 10% of breaking AV and getting a casualty)
NOW if you add the fact that Throw TeamMate passes do not result in turnovers if the player did not have the ball and do your REALLY think that this should be allowed. Cause if I was in your league with a Fling or Goblin team, I would spend my first 4 games with one Ogre in the back field throwing a Fling as the first move of each of my turns ... I should be able to get one Ogre to 2 skills and another to 1 skill in 4 games just from TTM plays ... heck of a lot easier than blocking. My Halfling team in the PBeMBBL has only managed 4 Casualties in 5 games ... I could have racked up a heck of a lot more SPPs with this rule. Screw winning ... I'll spend my first season throwing flings and then the 2nd season trying to win with my Block, Pro Ogres I developed from free TTM SPPs.
Just trying to show you this from a Stunty coach's point of view since you said you aren't one.
NOW ... finally clarification ... if you want to say that the Big Guy gets 1 SPP for an accurate TTM play with a successful landing if the thown player had the ball (ie it a turnover risk play) ... I'd consider it. But really, the Goblin/Halfling teams are meant to be horrible ... so giving them this option is really a leg up the teams just really don't need even if you required the Stuny to have the ball when he was thrown.
Galak |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Tutenkharnage |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Jul 15, 2003 - 06:38 AM
|
|
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
Posts: 620
Status: Offline
|
|
kalten wrote: mmmm...I see...
Obviously I'm wrong/stupid because I'm not on the BBRC?
Actually, there are days I feel wrong/stupid for being on said committee
Player stats and such are not good rationales for rules interpretation. They're fluff, plain and simple. You might feel this is a "spirit of the game" argument, but that's relative: Your attempt to justify a rulesy area of the game with a fluff piece from Second Edition strikes me as "lawyerly," for example.
Similarly, the rules for a Completion are laid out in black and white. TTM doesn't fit. An accurate pass that is caught by another member of your team is a completion. (Incidentally, this means that an inaccurate pass that bounces to another team member is not a completion, nor is an accurate pass that gets dropped back to the throwing player for a catch.)
All that said, how you play it in your league is how you play it in your league! House rules are cool, not evil. (Well, some of 'em are.) If that works for you guys, that's cool with me. And it should be cool with every other coach here.
Cheers!
-Chet |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
kalten |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Jul 15, 2003 - 12:51 PM
|
|
Joined: Apr 13, 2003
Posts: 81
Status: Offline
|
|
ok...
1st - sorry for getting miffed back then - it was a reaction to "and he should know" comment that got me - I don't like that sort of reasoning in any discussion.
2nd - The points put forward since then have gone a long way to swaying me to the point I was arguing agaisnt! the % chance of the throw being complete and the way in which it can be used to maximum efficiency had not occured to me and to be honest, never would have! I have always played for fun, not to be the best so have never taken the time to work such things out.
Chet's comment about interpretation and fluff holds a lot of weight becasue of the relative point of view I have taken to this debate and as such I can no longer hold my arguement up, or if I did, it would just be silly and provocative and to be honest I hate aurguements! (you'd never believe me!  )
Anyway, thank you for taking the time to read and comment here. I must admit that from the black and white (with grey!) rules point of view that must be taken for these points, I was wrong!
I will continue to use my 1 SPP for a complete TTM in my league, but will review it if we get anyone abusing it (note that none of my players are wise enough to work out what Galak knows!)
I hope to be able to clear further things up with you - which leads me to another question....
Throwing a bomb - if it misses the target square, is it a turnover?
cheers,
kalten |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Jul 15, 2003 - 10:10 PM
|
|
Joined: Feb 10, 2003
Undisclosed
Posts: 2696
Location: Undisclosed
|
|
I take you mean an exploding bomb? If that's what you mean then no, it's not a turnover (and isn't it great when it scatters into your opponents carefully constructed cage?  |
_________________
_____ and rankings - that is all
#27 of the "24 club" (due to some dodgy accounting)
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Ratin_Mutants |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Jul 17, 2003 - 12:19 AM
|
|
Joined: Mar 12, 2003
Posts: 57
Status: Offline
|
|
| I would love to have a TTM Spp for every tme I throw a Gobo.... hmmm 6 throws, And the first skill already. But it should not give one SPP. the only Comp. is when you throw the ball to a teammate, not the teammate... but it´s still not impossible.. I have a Treeman that has actually made 2 int, in 5 matches, and 2 comp. (lucky 6.. he he)But the most of his Spp are still cas... |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
kalten |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Jul 19, 2003 - 08:24 AM
|
|
Joined: Apr 13, 2003
Posts: 81
Status: Offline
|
|
Darkson wrote: I take you mean an exploding bomb? If that's what you mean then no, it's not a turnover (and isn't it great when it scatters into your opponents carefully constructed cage?
Hell yeah! hee hee |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
dwarfcoach |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Jul 19, 2003 - 02:33 PM
|
|
The Best Dressed Man in Blood Bowl
Joined: Apr 13, 2003
Posts: 764
Status: Offline
|
|
Well I reckon your rule about gaining 1 spp for an 'accurate' throw is great!!
It makes sense to me that the more he practices, even 'Big Guys' start to get better eventually....
As for people abusing it in the way Galak was saying, if somebody playing in a league with me was up to that sort of nonsense then they wouldn't get many matches from me (or most of the gamers I know) as (in my humble opinion) that is
"Simply not cricket"
(translation: takes the fun out of the game as concentrating on the letter of the rules rather than the idea behind the rules...) |
_________________
Chuck Norris does not sleep. He waits.
224th at The World Cup II
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
GalakStarscraper |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Jul 19, 2003 - 09:17 PM
|
|
Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 1562
Status: Offline
|
|
dwarfcoach wrote: As for people abusing it in the way Galak was saying, if somebody playing in a league with me was up to that sort of nonsense then they wouldn't get many matches from me (or most of the gamers I know) as (in my humble opinion) that is
Really ... huh ... I never minded when I've played against Elf teams and they've thrown 3 to 4 quick passes in their back field after kickoffs to get the 1 SPP to players needing 1 or 2 more for their next skill ... in fact its a common thing in the 2 leagues I play/played in... what's the difference between that and this???
Galak |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
