| Author |
Message |
Doubleskulls |
|
Post subject:
 Posted: May 30, 2003 - 05:09 AM
|
|
Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Mar 05, 2003
Undisclosed
Posts: 2627
Location: Kent, UK
Status: Offline
|
|
jmccubbin wrote: Keep it after the roll, definatly not before. If it is before I will never take it.
ECBBL plays after because a lot of coaches (not me) don't like the idea of Shadowing & Diving Tackle combos - especially on MA8/9 players. |
_________________
Ian 'Double Skulls' Williams
SLOBB
NAF Racial Results
|
| |
|
|
|
 |
|
coachblacknife |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: May 30, 2003 - 05:35 AM
|
|
Joined: Feb 16, 2003
Posts: 55
Status: Offline
|
|
Doubleskulls wrote: ECBBL plays after because a lot of coaches (not me) don't like the idea of Shadowing & Diving Tackle combos - especially on MA8/9 players.
Surely _before_ would be better for this combo?
Example#1 - after
Player1 dodges, makes it, Player2 shadows. Repeat until you want to play DT based on seeing the dodge roll.
Example#2 - before
Player1 dodges, makes it, Player2 shadows. Player1 dodges, Player2 DT's, Player1 makes it - Player2 cannot shadow. (I'm assuming here that you have to be on your feet to use Shadowing as you don't exert a TZ when you're prone.)
I thought Example#1 was harsher than #2.
I fail to see why DT should be turned into a skill that should be taken by everyone. Surely it depends on the other skills in the league, so Guard is handy if everyone takes it, Tackle if everyone has Dodge, and so on. I like the idea of rare skills as they spice the game when you come across them. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
GalakStarscraper |
|
|
Post subject: Re: Diving Tackles
Posted: May 30, 2003 - 05:43 AM
|
|
Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 1562
Status: Offline
|
|
coachblacknife wrote: Okay guys, i'll just reiterate one point:
That's a -2 to dodge with NO penalty for using the skill.
And I'll reiterate mine. If its just a great no penalty no risk skill why is it still so rarely taken in league that have been using the after the dice roll version for over a year now.
Nerfing a skill should have something more to it than it doesn't feel right. Example ... I agree that Piling On should be moved back to before the AV roll ... why .. because my league is filled with Piling On players. Chet has on numerous occassions spoken to why Piling On after the dice roll is okay and not that great, but that doesn't change the fact that I have a league full of Piling On players including a Khemri team that was getting 6 cas a game on average.
So playtesting shows to me that Piling On should be moved back to before the dice roll. Diving Tackle ... no takers. Now if you have a skill that only 4 out of 100+ coaches have taken and you nerf it further ... you should have just removed the skill from the game.
As for your no risk .... disagree ... an AG 4 player with a team reroll or Dodge will escape the Diving Tackle player and leave him prone 1 in every 6 dodges. ..... 1 in 6 ... and a 1 in 6 chance of failure is the norm for skill balance in the game (Hail Mary Pass, Master Chef, Bonehead, etc.)
I use Dodging Elves because that's who I always seem to play. Dodging Amazons or Human of course change the math.
Math: AG 4 dodge roll 2 or 3 causing DT trigger and DT goes prone (33%) ... dodge skill or team reroll used ... dodge succeeds (50%) = (33%*50%) = 1 in 6.
So coachblacknife .... forget what your gut tells you that the skill is too good and address the points:
1) Why nerf a skill that is rarely seen in league play?
2) Why isn't a 1 in 6 fail rate for DT enough risk against an Elf team?
Galak |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
jmccubbin |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: May 30, 2003 - 06:23 AM
|
|
Joined: Mar 12, 2003
Posts: 152
Status: Offline
|
|
| Nobody in our league uses it yet. Even our DE team doesn't have it. I doubt I will put it on my Gutter Runners, and I sure ain't wasting a double on a non-mutation (except my passer for strong arm) |
_________________
Officially 0-1-1 in NAF.
At least my team looked good.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
jmccubbin |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: May 30, 2003 - 06:25 AM
|
|
Joined: Mar 12, 2003
Posts: 152
Status: Offline
|
|
| However I just thought. Passblock with DT could be a good defensive combo. Expecially if I add prehensile tail. |
_________________
Officially 0-1-1 in NAF.
At least my team looked good.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Doubleskulls |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: May 30, 2003 - 06:29 AM
|
|
Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Mar 05, 2003
Undisclosed
Posts: 2627
Location: Kent, UK
Status: Offline
|
|
coachblacknife wrote: Surely _before_ would be better for this combo?
Sorry if I wasn't clear.
The fear of the Shadowing DT combo on Gutter Runners means he've house ruled DT to before the dodge roll (so they can't combine). As a concequence I haven't seen anyone take it in normal a league. That probably means its been downgraded to a 3rd/4th skill for AG access players. |
_________________
Ian 'Double Skulls' Williams
SLOBB
NAF Racial Results
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
pastaga |
|
|
Post subject: Re: Diving Tackles
Posted: May 30, 2003 - 08:43 AM
|
|
Joined: Feb 28, 2003
Posts: 15
Status: Offline
|
|
GalakStarscraper wrote:
8 ) Dodge roll succeeds, DT used, rerolled, Dodge roll succeeds, Dodger runs away, DTer prone
In this case, the DT is used :
Does the -2 AG modificater still effective for the dodge rerolled ? |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
GalakStarscraper |
|
|
Post subject: Re: Diving Tackles
Posted: May 30, 2003 - 08:48 AM
|
|
Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 1562
Status: Offline
|
|
pastaga wrote: GalakStarscraper wrote:
8 ) Dodge roll succeeds, DT used, rerolled, Dodge roll succeeds, Dodger runs away, DTer prone
In this case, the DT is used :
Does the -2 AG modificater still effective for the dodge rerolled ?
Yes, the DT modifier if applied to the 1st roll counts for the 2nd.
Galak |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
GalakStarscraper |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: May 30, 2003 - 08:50 AM
|
|
Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 1562
Status: Offline
|
|
Doubleskulls wrote: As a concequence I haven't seen anyone take it in normal a league. That probably means its been downgraded to a 3rd/4th skill for AG access players.
If even that which is my point (I'm guessing its more like a 5th skill choice at best). Move DT to before the dodge roll and you might as well have removed it from the game entirely.
Its a 3rd/4th skill choice already with its "no-risk" status. Nerfing it futher is something I just cannot see justification for.
Galak |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
skummy |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: May 30, 2003 - 09:06 AM
|
|
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
Posts: 506
Status: Offline
|
|
| The opportunity cost for DT is so low that it's not a great skill. Most players would rather just knock you off the ball anyway, so you either have to have a high strength, or Blodge and Sidestep to become really effective. |
_________________
The only thing to do with good advice is pass it on. It is never any use to oneself.
-Oscar Wilde
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
coachblacknife |
|
|
Post subject: Re: Diving Tackles
Posted: Jun 01, 2003 - 04:52 AM
|
|
Joined: Feb 16, 2003
Posts: 55
Status: Offline
|
|
GalakStarscraper wrote: And I'll reiterate mine. If its just a great no penalty no risk skill why is it still so rarely taken in league that have been using the after the dice roll version for over a year now.
Because the teams have little access to Agility skills? Because the league runs with a high-strength attitude and those Agility teams would rather take avoidance skills? There are many reasons not to take the skill based upon it's relevance to a league.
Example
The store league we now have shows an abundance of teams willing and able to score for the sake of scoring. These range from Amazons and Humans through the Elves. DT is quite a tidy little skill particularly now that it falls aftre the die is rolled. (Was this only ever in a Q&A as the Living Rulebook makes no mention...)
GalakStarscraper wrote: Nerfing a skill should have something more to it than it doesn't feel right. Example ... I agree that Piling On should be moved back to before the AV roll ... why .. because my league is filled with Piling On players. ...
I quite agree, however you'll find that gut instinct is based on something if you look harder at it.
Example
Gav Thorpe publicly wondered in WD whether to allow a whole ranked up regiment of Dwarfs to infiltrate. There was a suspiscion that it was too goo, but he included it anyway. At the end of the day it should have been left out.
That aside, i'll thank you for your point and say that i've been playing this game since 3rd edition and have quite a ... healthy ... track record. I assume that everyone here also has a similar pedigree as they've gone to the trouble of joining the NAF and suporting a fringe game.
No, 'nerfing a skill' is a harsh term as i'm suggesting either of two _minor_ adjustments to a skill [that as far as i was concerned was fine with a Block] that I see as having been made _too_ appealing. The BBRC had no problem in allowing ranges to be measured at any point, or skills to be used aftre the die is rolled - both of these I believe remove skill from the game.
GalakStarscraper wrote:
So playtesting shows to me that Piling On should be moved back to before the dice roll. Diving Tackle ... no takers. Now if you have a skill that only 4 out of 100+ coaches have taken and you nerf it further ... you should have just removed the skill from the game.
Why remove it when it adds a bit of spin to a league that may be set in its way? I hear the terms 'neutered' and 'ham-strung' a lot with reference to BBRC changes, both of which I believe are too strong. 'Nerfing' is making my gut turn in the same way.
GalakStarscraper wrote:
As for your no risk .... disagree ... an AG 4 player with a team reroll or Dodge will escape the Diving Tackle player and leave him prone 1 in every 6 dodges. ...
Thanks for the stats lesson. If you read back my point was that if teh dodging player has not got dodge - and the team is out of rerolls. Oh and what if the dodger was AG3, or the DT'r has Tackle. You see how many cases we can both apply here? My point on 'no risk' was that you can choose to play it when you see the team at it's weakest, guaranteeing you the Turnover and immediately standing up. Hence: no risk.
GalakStarscraper wrote:
1) Why nerf a skill that is rarely seen in league play?
2) Why isn't a 1 in 6 fail rate for DT enough risk against an Elf team?
1) It's not being 'nerfed', merely brought in line with itself: Risk vs. Gain. It's not a matter of neuter, it's a matter of balance. The teams are balanced within themselves, not against each other.
2) It's the teams that have access to AG skills that are usign it more, not worrying about it. I believe your Elven coaches are having to contend with being flattened more than defending against the running play. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
coachblacknife |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Jun 01, 2003 - 04:55 AM
|
|
Joined: Feb 16, 2003
Posts: 55
Status: Offline
|
|
GalakStarscraper wrote: If even that which is my point (I'm guessing its more like a 5th skill choice at best). Move DT to before the dodge roll and you might as well have removed it from the game entirely.
That's because coaches are not willing to spend early skills in fooling surprising their opponents. Change and adaptability are keywords in BBowl around these parts (Edinburgh) and a league full of Guard doesn't happen because it's boring. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
GalakStarscraper |
|
|
Post subject: Re: Diving Tackles
Posted: Jun 01, 2003 - 09:36 AM
|
|
Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 1562
Status: Offline
|
|
coachblacknife wrote: [That aside, i'll thank you for your point and say that i've been playing this game since 3rd edition and have quite a ... healthy ... track record.
Your reputation is well established in the BB community if you are the same Coach Blacknife of old. So my disagreement with you has nothing to do with my doubting your knowledge base. Its the evidence I'm seeing my own eyes.
Zombie on TBB made an interesting comment about me a while back. I trust what my eyes tell me more than what the paper reads like. Your analysis of DT before the dice roll is a great paper read. Yup, great way to generate an auto turnover, lots of benefit to the skill.
So you suggest minor adjustment to the skill to balance it against itself on paper. However, your analysis ignores to me several factors that game play have shown about the skill when its after the roll:
1) I can just blitz through the Diving Tackle player because he didn't take Dodge when he took Diving Tackle instead ... which I probably will do.
2) I have to go prone to use the skill. So while there are circumstances where this would be an automatic turnover, if the player dodges and fails. It still cost me 3 MA to use the skill. And to me the odds of you using Diving Tackle are much more real against players with Dodge than no as you'll be trying to mark catchers. As a result, the vast majority of the time, there is a very real risk of being left flat on the floor instead of having your automatic turnover.
3) Really good leagues with highly talented players that have moved the skill to before the Dodge roll don't have any players with the skill. The ECBBL has generated several high rated league players. The NFL has some of the better players I've seen as well for a league as a whole. Both league use before the Dodge roll ... both leagues don't have a single player with the skill.
4) Your comment that just because no one is abusing it doesn't mean its doesn't require re-balance I also disagree based on the data available. I have 100+ coaches in my two leagues. Four of those coaches have taken Diving Tackle for one player.
The 2nd part of 4 is the biggest to me. Your comment seem to be directed towards that if a coach tried to abuse the skill we would find it abuse providing it wasn't a strength heavy league.
The FUMBBL league is the best proving ground for this for me:
2,232 coaches
9,827 teams in the league
1,500 to 2,000 games played every week
Top 10 teams in the league out of those almost 10,000 teams: 4 Wood Elf, 1 Undead, 3 Skaven, 1 Dark Elf, and 1 Chaos. Definitely not a Strength dominated league.
Now FUMBBL uses Diving Tackle after the Dodge roll, so if someone was going to prove the abuse surely one of these top coaches would have found it. So I looked at the top 5 Wood Elf, Dark Elf, High Elf, and Skaven teams in FUMBBL. Not a single player has Diving Tackle on those 20 teams.
I keep looking and finally found some Goblin and Halfling teams with Diving Tackle, but that was all I could find.
My conclusion from this is thus: based on a lot of real world data no reasonable conclusion for the need to adjust Diving Tackle to make it is a worse skill can be justified. Paper analysis and gut instincts are wonderful things from experienced players such as yourself. But when the data is 2 miles high and disproving the hypothesis (in this case that DT needs to be moved to before the Dodge roll) ... the hypothesis must be wrong in my opinion.
Piling On moved to before the AV roll ... I'm fine with that. Diving Tackle moved to before the AV roll would in my opinion mean you should just remove the skill from the game. If a skill is VERY rarely taken, and you make it worse, ... well... in my mind that means you should have just deleted it.
I believe there is a time for paper analysis and a time for trusting the data ... Diving Tackle is data over paper for me at this point.
Galak |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
coachblacknife |
|
|
Post subject: Re: Diving Tackles
Posted: Jun 02, 2003 - 03:05 AM
|
|
Joined: Feb 16, 2003
Posts: 55
Status: Offline
|
|
GalakStarscraper wrote: Zombie on TBB made an interesting comment about me a while back. I trust what my eyes tell me more than what the paper reads like. Your analysis of DT before the dice roll is a great paper read. Yup, great way to generate an auto turnover, lots of benefit to the skill.
Thanks. And your approach is most commendable. Most players (of other game systems, not BBowl obviously  don't bother playing they just jump right on in and comment. I'll admit that I don't have access to the fumbbl stats right now, although having juuust signed up I look forward to playing even more Coaches. Hopefully your good self too.
I just need to fix my PC so that it works larger than 800x600 again...
GalakStarscraper wrote:
1) I can just blitz through the Diving Tackle player because he didn't take Dodge when he took Diving Tackle instead ... which I probably will do.
Certainly the easiest way to deal with the pesky blighter! However if I have three DT's close to each other... Okay, so no-one's done that because theye weren't impressed enough by DT to take it more than once, but the potential is there. Have you ever tried to Pass and been rushed by 4 Passblockers? What a pain in the bum.
GalakStarscraper wrote:
4) Your comment that just because no one is abusing it doesn't mean its doesn't require re-balance I also disagree based on the data available.
Just that to get Prehensile Tail you need to roll a double and that's only getting you a -1. DT can be gained on a normal roll and the -2 is balanced by becoming prone. I believe that isn't enough to justify -2, but then I wonder why it was made -2. How many games did the BBRC conduct for this? Was it a poll of coaches on TBBF?
I have to ask this one openly as I didn't play for a couple of years there. [gasp! sounds of horror and delicate ladies fainting]
GalakStarscraper wrote: Top 10 teams in the league out of those almost 10,000 teams: 4 Wood Elf, 1 Undead, 3 Skaven, 1 Dark Elf, and 1 Chaos. Definitely not a Strength dominated league.
Your side of the debate certainly looks way stronger than mine 
How about this - and this is pure speculation - The teams at the top are tweaked to play against opponents who take a block/blitz approach rather than forcing dodges. If more were to take Diving Tackle, Tackle, etc. would we see different teams at the top? Tell you what - you've done a barrow-load of legwork, so it's only fair that I trawl through the fumbbl teams looking for Tackle.
Starting to realise the potential of this information mine!
GalakStarscraper wrote: My conclusion from this is thus: based on a lot of real world data no reasonable conclusion for the need to adjust Diving Tackle to make it is a worse skill can be justified.
There's still a part of me that says as soon as a team focuses on taking one skill then it has the potential for being flagged as a problem. I've had one looong discussion with a Coach about a Guard heavy league for example. Causing all sorts of problems because one team maxed out and others felt they could only compete by doing similar. If you couldn't get access to Strength skills you suffered.
Now, we both realise there's ways around that and that's the route the discussion followed. But anyway, I don't think I need to illustrate this any more as you've come up with a great stats source and I have a point to prove ... on the field. May just have to make up an Elf team to go with my Chaos Dwarfs [=]
Cheer Galak - yer a real gent. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
GalakStarscraper |
|
|
Post subject: Re: Diving Tackles
Posted: Jun 02, 2003 - 05:08 AM
|
|
Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 1562
Status: Offline
|
|
coachblacknife wrote: Cheer Galak - yer a real gent.
Thanks ... I've got a Snotling team in the MBBL2 where all the Snotlings are taking Diving Tackle as their first skill, because I was curious what would happen. Since they already have Dodge and Side Step, I thought it was the perfect team to try the abuse approach on that you mentioned.
Unfortunately ... the darn buggers die pretty easily (AV 5, +2 to injury, ST 1) ... so I only have one player with the skill (so yes, I'm one of the 4 coaches out of 100+ that have taken the skill in my 2 leagues).
I'm also trying to get Diving Tackle players on my Halfling team in the MBBL. However, if you look at FUMBBL Stunty teams you will already find several teams with 2 to 4 Diving Tackle players. I think Diving Tackle is what you take for a team when you don't have access to General skills, and unfortunately me using two little guy teams to do the same won't disprove anything.
However, if you start an Elf team in FUMBBL and give most of the players Diving Tackle as their first skill or 2nd skill ... I'll be very interested to see how you do.
Galak |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
