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Post subject:
 Posted: Jun 15, 2012 - 03:55 PM
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Joined: May 19, 2010
Posts: 110
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Thanks Jeff, it should make for an exciting start.
BTW, as Khail mentions, we're not trying to troll. Maybe it's a gamer culture thing. For some reason, being interested in competitive conditions is misinterpreted as "STOP TRYING TO WIN" by the conflict-adverse. I'm always going to have fun if I win or lose. But dammit, I'm going to have even more fun if the competition is better balanced.
DarkOrk, Xtreme, complaining that a debate exists isn't a "voice of reason." It's just prairie-dogging it because you can't ignore disagreement--about something you claim is irrelevant no less. The only reason there has been a debate is because we want NATC to be a success. |
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SierraKiloBravo |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 15, 2012 - 08:15 PM
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Joined: Jun 22, 2008
Dublin CA
Posts: 60
Location: Dublin CA
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zootsuitjeff wrote: Yes, no guarantees after round 1, but we will do our best to make sure you are matched up with a team from a different region in the first round. If we can manage it, we will have a preference for that in later rounds as well.
Also like the WC, we will most likely have a draw after registration closes, so that you will know ahead of the tournament who your first round opponent is.
Jeff
Warpstone wrote: SKB, Jeff, is it possible for you to rig early rounds so that clubmates don't face each other? For example, if Thunderbowl sends 2 or more teams down, they don't have to play unless they're vying for top spots?
A large part of the appeal of a tourny like this is playing coaches outside of our region.
Absolutely.
Jeff, maybe we should ask squads to identify their home leagues at the time of registration? That's pretty easy to police. |
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Control the lightning.
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Lizardcore |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 15, 2012 - 09:59 PM
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Joined: Apr 07, 2004
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zootsuitjeff wrote: Yes, no guarantees after round 1, but we will do our best to make sure you are matched up with a team from a different region in the first round. If we can manage it, we will have a preference for that in later rounds as well.
how are you going to that for later rounds ? bypass the double swiss ? I get that playing the guys that you travelled with sucks, but that shouldnt be more than once during the WE I guess. And that will create some interesting discussion back home  |
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daloonieshaman |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 15, 2012 - 10:23 PM
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Joined: Feb 28, 2003
United States of America
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Location: United States of America
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Lizardcore wrote: zootsuitjeff wrote: Yes, no guarantees after round 1, but we will do our best to make sure you are matched up with a team from a different region in the first round. If we can manage it, we will have a preference for that in later rounds as well.
how are you going to that for later rounds ? bypass the double swiss ? I get that playing the guys that you travelled with sucks, but that shouldnt be more than once during the WE I guess. And that will create some interesting discussion back home
you could swiss by block of points (everyone at the end of game 3 that has between 7.5 and 9 points could be in a block)
these guys are in this block (they are ranked ABCDEF)(You can have the artistic license for a tweak and have say A play E instead of A playing B |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 16, 2012 - 12:35 AM
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Joined: May 19, 2010
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@Lizardcore, it might be more than one. You might see 3 or more teams from RCR alone. Note sure yet for TB, but it should be at least 2.
Just spitballing, but would it be possible to arrange day 1 into 4 squad groups? This would allow teams from the same areas to avoid each other for day 1. But it could also literally mix together squads from the 4 corners of the continent. 
It does abandon swiss for day 1 though... but I wonder if the remaining 6 rounds of straight swiss matches would make up for it. |
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Xtreme |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 16, 2012 - 10:31 AM
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Da Boss
Joined: Mar 12, 2003
United States of America
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Warpstone wrote:
DarkOrk, Xtreme, complaining that a debate exists isn't a "voice of reason." It's just prairie-dogging it because you can't ignore disagreement--about something you claim is irrelevant no less. The only reason there has been a debate is because we want NATC to be a success.
My definition of this tournament being a success has nothing to do with this thread. If everyone has a good time and is excited about a NATC II, then I would consider it a success. I don't see rules squabbles before the event contributing to the fun factor at all. In fact all I see is a lot of talk about the competitive environment of the tournament rather then what will be fun to play in. |
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Lizardcore |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 16, 2012 - 11:35 AM
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Joined: Apr 07, 2004
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Warpstone wrote: It does abandon swiss for day 1 though... but I wonder if the remaining 6 rounds of straight swiss matches would make up for it.
that's an interesting idea!
you need to know roughly how many teams will come, to see if the 6 swiss round will be enough following that (in the worst case scenario all the best teams are in the same group day 1). are you planning to have more that 64 teams total ? (=256 coaches). if not, it doesnt have any impact, so it's a pretty good idea. And each group will be swiss-paired, so good teams would have already play each other as they would have anyway...
You could even enlarge It so wilder groups are not playing each other the first day (i.e. guys from toronto, ottawa and montreal or chicago / detroit etc...). The thing is that it will be hard to prepare the file in advance, so this will have to be done once all the team are registered. |
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poundfist |
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Posted: Jun 16, 2012 - 05:00 PM
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Joined: Feb 12, 2007
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Personally, (if you're interested in doing that at all (and again I stress it your tournament and please run it as you see fit)), I would "rig" the first round to prevent countrymen (or fellow club members, or people from the same city, you know what I mean) from playing one another. I would then seed the groups for the second round, and if possible, I would manually switch pairings to achieve the same effect, if necessary. I would continue to do this for as long as it made sense: for instance, if by Round 3 the top 4 teams were all from the same area, well, fuck those guys. They're playing one another eventually, might as well be now.
I would not suggest trying to create any hard rule for this, since it's the sort of thing you might need to break on the day. As an example, I promised for Spike! 2010 that we would adopt a rule like this for the first three rounds, but by round 3 it didn't work for a few cases close to the top and I abandoned it. It was easy to say "ah, it didn't work so I abandoned it" when asked, but it would have been even easier not to have been asked in the first place.
I would word a promise about club seeding as "Every effort will be made to prevent fellow club members from playing one another for as long as it makes sense." That doesn't tie you down to anything, but we will all appreciate that effort is being made. |
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SierraKiloBravo |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 16, 2012 - 06:08 PM
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Joined: Jun 22, 2008
Dublin CA
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Location: Dublin CA
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| I think it makes sense to consider geography for Day 1 Round 1 only, just as a courtesy for squads to at least be guaranteed one match against peeps they don't regularly play. After that, its a tourney and whatever the seeding is, the seeding is. |
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zootsuitjeff |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 17, 2012 - 02:27 AM
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Joined: Jan 29, 2010
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Location: United States of America
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| My personal take is that it makes sense to prevent regional matchups for round 1 and round 2. Round 1 because it is completely random, so adding this constraint should be easy. Round 2 because all the teams will be in a finite number of blocks (teams with 4 wins in round 1, team with 2 wins 2 ties etc) and the main tiebreaker of Opponents Cumulative Score will be meaningless at that point. After Round 3 it wil be harder to guarantee things... |
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Daggers |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 17, 2012 - 02:53 PM
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Joined: Dec 07, 2006
Canada
Posts: 1618
Location: Canada
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| Yeah, it would be nice not to have to play people from my region in the first few games. But it gets harder as the rounds go on to do hat in Swiss-style. But it could be possible if there are a lot of ties. |
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AnthonyTBBF |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 18, 2012 - 07:16 AM
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Joined: Feb 10, 2003
Toronto, ON
Posts: 1313
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Xtreme wrote: My definition of this tournament being a success has nothing to do with this thread. If everyone has a good time and is excited about a NATC II, then I would consider it a success. I don't see rules squabbles before the event contributing to the fun factor at all. In fact all I see is a lot of talk about the competitive environment of the tournament rather then what will be fun to play in.
This. |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 18, 2012 - 09:37 AM
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Joined: May 19, 2010
Posts: 110
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Xtreme wrote:
My definition of this tournament being a success has nothing to do with this thread. If everyone has a good time and is excited about a NATC II, then I would consider it a success. I don't see rules squabbles before the event contributing to the fun factor at all. In fact all I see is a lot of talk about the competitive environment of the tournament rather then what will be fun to play in.
Which would all be great if you weren't complaining about this thread that is... about the rules.
Seriously, you TO's are golden. We all know that. But if you solicit feedback and questions, wouldn't you want some genuine replies and concerns addressed rather than a handjob? : |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 18, 2012 - 09:51 AM
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Joined: May 19, 2010
Posts: 110
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zootsuitjeff wrote: My personal take is that it makes sense to prevent regional matchups for round 1 and round 2. Round 1 because it is completely random, so adding this constraint should be easy. Round 2 because all the teams will be in a finite number of blocks (teams with 4 wins in round 1, team with 2 wins 2 ties etc) and the main tiebreaker of Opponents Cumulative Score will be meaningless at that point. After Round 3 it wil be harder to guarantee things...
As Poundfist mentioned, I'm sure that's about all anyone could ask for. I'm not sure what software/spreadsheet you guys use, but I can imagine that hacking in a conflict protocol is not turnkey (i.e. usually some poor bastard left to sort through sheets). But two rounds is doable by hand, and the third could be a nice to have if the points aren't too far off and the 2nd round fixing wasn't too time-consuming.
Like Lizardcore, I think it would be nice if you could also avoid mates from the same region (i.e. Thunderbowl and RCR face off a few times each year now anyway). But, again this will depend a lot on the software you have in place.
AFAIK, Score doesn't do this (or at least not well) and Khail relied on an uber-spreadsheet to sort RCR's day one as best as possible. |
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Daggers |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 18, 2012 - 10:10 AM
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Joined: Dec 07, 2006
Canada
Posts: 1618
Location: Canada
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| One of the guys in the local area created a tournament manager that wuse, and actually programmed it so first round coaches from the same area were always separated. I can ask him how hard it would be to do that for later rounds just to get his opinion. I would just want to make sure it didn't mess with the Swiss format, because then the schedule might become unbalanced. |
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