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generaljason |
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Post subject:
 Posted: Feb 01, 2012 - 04:57 AM
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Joined: Dec 04, 2009
British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 439
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Status: Offline
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Sebco wrote:
Thats could be another solution but if I understood well, the aim was to have a great team event with a lot of coachs travelling far away from their countries and playing against teams from other countries. A team losing at their national team event and so not being qualified to the new EuroBowl you described would not achieve the orginal goal explained above.
How so? From my understanding of the way Eurobowl is set up is that a limited number of teams from each country are allowed to go. It is not unlimited hence why Francisco wants to create another European Team Challenge - one that is open to everyone in Europe. His problem - and rightly so, is that the tournament is essentially closed, not the"great team event with a lot of coachs travelling far away from their countries and playing against teams from other countries" that you described above, (I'm mean I'm sure whoever get's to go thinks it's a good event and I'm not arguing that) but a team event with a limited number of teams from each country with ad hoc selection that changes from country to country. A tiered event solves that bitch once and for all. And if one team doesn't get to go - too bad, should've played better at the qualifier, better luck next year.
Sebco wrote:
The EuroBowl you described would still be reserved to a limited number of teams and so would not be suitable for Pako and the other ones who thought this new project.
Yeah that's exactly what I'm saying - leave Eurobowl with the same number of teams per country as it already is, but for those countries that have players that never seem to be able to get past the selection process every year have a qualifier event, let the dice decide and put the bitching to bed.
Grumbledook wrote:
Eurobowl qualifiers that gj suggested I can't see being practical. At least in the UK existing tournaments wouldn't fit that model very well. It would cause far more upheaval than just giving one of the existing large team events a NAF stamp. I would also drop any notion of calling it "Euro", Team Challenge Open works fine. Doubleskulls mentioned there may well be aussie expats who would want to make a small team for example.
If the idea is to make it an open all inclusive team event to as many as possible, drop the euro, have smaller teams of 4 which are easier to get together and host it in a time of the year that doesn't compete with the eurobowl. I don't see it competing with the eurobowl either, coaches willing to travel to that will still go, those who aren't picked on the eurobowl team are then free to choose to attend the team open...
Jon to be honest I have not heard one UK player bitch about how his team was not able to compete in Eurobowl, but I have heard this from Spain numerous times and for at least a year in a number of threads. If the UK selection process is working for their end of Eurobowl then great, but if the selection process in Spain doesn't seem to have a consensus then make them roll for it. That way nobody can argue that Eurobowl is essentially a closed event but the best teams won and came to play.
Pako wrote:
I don't think Eurobowl should change.
Really - you don't think Eurobowl should change? C'mon dude, level with me, were you visited by 3 ghosts or something over the holidays? I'm not going to, but I could site thread after thread after thread where you've said the exact opposite.
Pako wrote:
I could put me on the place of an Eurobowl player and I won't disturb the feeling and friendship carried by Eurobowl by making this tournament a carrot for an increase in competition on former team tournaments.
Qualifiers don't do that. They don't cause cancer either.
Pako wrote:
Qualifiers have a very undesirable side effect: to affect the fair play and good relations in the tournaments.
Qualifiers affect fair play and good relations? How so? Do you guys play in a den of cheaters that will do anything to win, and after such wins, your players are such poor sports that it actually carries over and taints good relations? Tournaments whether they are qualifiers or whatever are competitive anyway and this creates rivalries. That's a good thing not a bad thing unless you're a poor sport loser - and you don't need to cater to those guys.
Pako wrote:
For this reason, I think Eurobowl could still being the same tournament. It deserves to remain as it was planned at the very beginning of the NAF.
Hey I'm all for tradition but NAF has barely been around for 10 years. I'm for making the Eurobowl better, more inclusively to everyone who may want to participate, and tiered does that. Tiered makes it so one rule in the Tournament Approval Document - specifically Point #4, never has to be in there in order to explain why one closed tournament a year receives sanctioning as if it were open like any other.
More importantly though, making it tiered bazookas all bitching about not being able to go to the event. You lost, didn't qualifier, boo hoo, go cry somewhere else and get me a beer while your at it. Your whole point of the thread was that Eurobowl wasn't inclusive enough, so you wanted to make a Euro Team Challenge or whatever that would be. Why not spend your efforts making Eurobowl do that instead?
Per country qualifiers and a tiered Eurobowl does that. Plus you get to try out every year anyway. I could only wish that North America could do something like that every year. |
Last edited by generaljason on Feb 01, 2012 - 06:06 AM; edited 1 time in total
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 01, 2012 - 06:03 AM
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Joined: Feb 10, 2003
Undisclosed
Posts: 2696
Location: Undisclosed
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| Eurobowl is one nation, one team, and has never been specifically about sending the "best" players. |
_________________
_____ and rankings - that is all
#27 of the "24 club" (due to some dodgy accounting)
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generaljason |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 01, 2012 - 06:08 AM
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Joined: Dec 04, 2009
British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 439
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Status: Offline
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| So it's ad hoc, hence the bitching. |
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Pako |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 01, 2012 - 07:04 AM
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Joined: Jul 15, 2005
Spain
Posts: 471
Location: Spain
Status: Offline
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Pako wrote: I don't think Eurobowl should change.
generaljason wrote:
Really - you don't think Eurobowl should change? C'mon dude, level with me, were you visited by 3 ghosts or something over the holidays? I'm not going to, but I could site thread after thread after thread where you've said the exact opposite.
Please, re-read again those posts. I just pointed out that Eurobowl was an exception to NAF approval rules. An exeption that NAF shouldn't permit if it will maintain an image of fairness. Once NAF approval document was changed to fairly decide how a tournament could get the NAF sanctioning, I have no further problems with Eurobowl.
We could call again Kewan and he (as Spanish captain of Spanish Team) could confirm I never want (and will never want) play Eurobowl. So bitching is not there.
Moreover, I did not put Eurobowl on the table. Were eurobowlers the ones to start with. I just add it to the discussion because, if not, I for sure will be accused to ignore some people's points.
I don't care about Eurobowl AT ALL.
I just want to have an international European tournament for all NAF players.
You will call it Team Championship or whatever, I don't care about flagship tournaments because the only real flagship tournament will be setted up by selecting best players of each nation (by qualifiers or best rating or win % or whatever you want), I concede it to you, it is clear. But you know what? I do not like this type of managing. Take a look on my numbers, I am playing goblins like crazy. And that's because in this game the most important thing is not win the tournament, nor your points NAF or if Eurobowl is a national tournament. And I think I could do it, as well I think I could personally think qualifiers are going to make people crazy. Personal opinion.
Most important thing is to play, to meet people and to travel. I will be very happy if people who wants continue playing Eurobowl (and continue assuming is representative :S ) and let the other 90% of european NAF players to play altogether.
That's it. |
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generaljason |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 01, 2012 - 09:26 AM
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Joined: Dec 04, 2009
British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 439
Location: British Columbia, Canada
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Pako wrote: Please, re-read again those posts. I just pointed out that Eurobowl was an exception to NAF approval rules. An exeption that NAF shouldn't permit if it will maintain an image of fairness. Once NAF approval document was changed to fairly decide how a tournament could get the NAF sanctioning, I have no further problems with Eurobowl.
Yeah and you should have a problem with it because it was a clarification to only explain an exception made for one tournament, and this was done well after the fact and only after complaint. It reminds me of Stakes - a skill to explain only one player, while it remains closed to everyone else.
Pako wrote: We could call again Kewan and he (as Spanish captain of Spanish Team) could confirm I never want (and will never want) play Eurobowl. So bitching is not there.
We're obviously using different history textbooks or something. The one I'm reading has you making this very complaint repeatedly, but now you're saying that you had never had any intention of ever playing in Eurobowl and you brought it up only to prove a point? And after some ad hoc clarification being added to the Tournament Approval document was done you were suddenly placated? Fair enough.
Clannish team events, comprising of only chosen members of each country, that may happen to be chosen by the loudest months and not elected representatives are sanctioned. I get it, now I understand. You might as well just call it AdminBowl while you're at it.
Just don't be all shocked and surprised when BCBowl tries to get approval, comprised of only one team from each of the British Columbian city-states.
Pako wrote: Moreover, I did not put Eurobowl on the table. Were eurobowlers the ones to start with. I just add it to the discussion because, if not, I for sure will be accused to ignore some people's points.
I don't care about Eurobowl AT ALL.
I just want to have an international European tournament for all NAF players.
You will call it Team Championship or whatever, I don't care about flagship tournaments because the only real flagship tournament will be setted up by selecting best players of each nation (by qualifiers or best rating or win % or whatever you want), I concede it to you, it is clear. But you know what? I do not like this type of managing. Take a look on my numbers, I am playing goblins like crazy. And that's because in this game the most important thing is not win the tournament, nor your points NAF or if Eurobowl is a national tournament. And I think I could do it, as well I think I could personally think qualifiers are going to make people crazy. Personal opinion.
Most important thing is to play, to meet people and to travel. I will be very happy if people who wants continue playing Eurobowl (and continue assuming is representative :S ) and let the other 90% of european NAF players to play altogether.
That's it.
And again we are at an impasse. I agree with your original argument that Eurobowl is closed and doesn't warrant sanctioning, and no added clarification after the fact is going to justify an essentially closed tournament receiving sanctioning in my mind.
Tiered yes. Elected Yes. Voluntary yes. If either of these options are being used to determine Eurobowl teams in their respective countries then I have no problem with NAF sanctioning being given to this event as it is still essentially open to the public. But Chosen no.
And no - I'm not into over competitiveness which is why I'm a firm believer of no prize money. But Goblins or no Goblins, we all play to have fun and meet new coaches but we all also try to win. If we didn't then why do people always seem to bitch about rankings, and what constitutes a Major and what doesn't? If winning was never a consideration you'd never hear it come up ever. And playing to win and building rivalries with coaches, and being great sports and meeting new coaches are not mutually exclusive. So pushing for qualifiers doesn't necessarily imply or constitute an overly competitive environment.
Anyway man, I'm a European citizen but reside in Canada, I'm never going to this one over World Cup so it doesn't really concern me. What does concern me are closed tournaments receiving sanctioning if they are in fact closed. I thought a tiered event would help solve your Eurobowl errata necessity as well as feed the clear need to host another team event in Spain.
Good luck with ETC or whatever you guys are calling it. You guys have a better chance of setting that up than poor North America.
Sorry for the length of the post boys, but when you can't display sarcasm and tone without a billion emoticons you tend to have to type more.
Best regards,
Gj. |
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Sebco |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 01, 2012 - 10:03 AM
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Joined: Dec 03, 2004
France
Posts: 466
Location: France
Status: Offline
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generaljason wrote: Sebco wrote:
Thats could be another solution but if I understood well, the aim was to have a great team event with a lot of coachs travelling far away from their countries and playing against teams from other countries. A team losing at their national team event and so not being qualified to the new EuroBowl you described would not achieve the orginal goal explained above.
How so? From my understanding of the way Eurobowl is set up is that a limited number of teams from each country are allowed to go. It is not unlimited hence why Francisco wants to create another European Team Challenge - one that is open to everyone in Europe. His problem - and rightly so, is that the tournament is essentially closed, not the "great team event with a lot of coachs travelling far away from their countries and playing against teams from other countries" that you described above, (I'm mean I'm sure whoever get's to go thinks it's a good event and I'm not arguing that) but a team event with a limited number of teams from each country with ad hoc selection that changes from country to country. A tiered event solves that bitch once and for all. And if one team doesn't get to go - too bad, should've played better at the qualifier, better luck next year.
Sebco wrote:
The EuroBowl you described would still be reserved to a limited number of teams and so would not be suitable for Pako and the other ones who thought this new project.
Yeah that's exactly what I'm saying - leave Eurobowl with the same number of teams per country as it already is, but for those countries that have players that never seem to be able to get past the selection process every year have a qualifier event, let the dice decide and put the bitching to bed.
I will try to be short. English is not my mother tongue and I may have bad translated my thoughts.
I do know that EuroBowl is limited to 1 team per country. I do understood that your proposal would allow more than 1 team per country to participate to the qualifications round. But, if I understood well, the qualification rounds would take place in each country with only teams for this said country. Even with your system, at the final EuroBowl, there would still have 1 team per country.
On the french forums, until now, there are a lot of votes for Pako's project of an Euro Cup organised in the same way than World Cup (so an open cup with an unlimited number of teams per nations, so teams aiming to win the cup or at least having good rankings, but also teams with funny rosters, teams with painters, teams with whatever you want). I'm not saying your proposal is bad or whatever, I'm just saying it does not fit with what Pako and his counterparts seem to want. If I understood well, they do not want to change EuroBowl fonctionment, they want to organize a new event, modelled on World Cup, but inevitably in Europe. |
_________________
NAF Membership Director + France NC
Bowl des Neiges XIX : 2022 february 26th & 27th
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Volstagg |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 01, 2012 - 11:07 AM
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Joined: Jul 23, 2005
Switzerland
Posts: 50
Location: Switzerland
Status: Offline
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I say let's just do it!
I cannot even understand why so much discussion. It's just a Tournament!
I already posted this idea sometime ago. I think everything would be easier if we could set a rotating World Cup Program, like for example:
Europe/North America/Europe/Australia/ and once again E/NA/E/Au
This way we would always know where the next WC is going to be played well in advance and we could foresee ( or at least have a better idea ) what the attendance would be. This would help all of us, since in North America are already planning to run their Team Championship.
Another good reason to this formula is to make it easier to all players around the globe the possibility to attend a WC...
You can call me mad in this thread... 
http://thenaf.net/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=5510&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=
Even if the WC had less players as a result of this team tournament(s), I´d go for it. The community is growing every day, and there are new tournaments coming up every week, and no one is protesting.
Think positive people!  |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 01, 2012 - 12:33 PM
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Joined: Nov 05, 2003
Italy
Posts: 80
Location: Italy
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Volstagg wrote: I say let's just do it!
I cannot even understand why so much discussion. It's just a Tournament!
I already posted this idea sometime ago. I think everything would be easier if we could set a rotating World Cup Program, like for example:
Europe/North America/Europe/Australia/ and once again E/NA/E/Au
This way we would always know where the next WC is going to be played well in advance and we could foresee ( or at least have a better idea ) what the attendance would be. This would help all of us, since in North America are already planning to run their Team Championship.
Another good reason to this formula is to make it easier to all players around the globe the possibility to attend a WC...
You can call me mad in this thread...
http://thenaf.net/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=5510&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=
Even if the WC had less players as a result of this team tournament(s), I´d go for it. The community is growing every day, and there are new tournaments coming up every week, and no one is protesting.
Think positive people!
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Pako |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 02, 2012 - 12:41 AM
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Joined: Jul 15, 2005
Spain
Posts: 471
Location: Spain
Status: Offline
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Sebco wrote: If I understood well, they do not want to change EuroBowl fonctionment, they want to organize a new event, modelled on World Cup, but inevitably in Europe.
That is exactly it.
We don't want to mess it with Eurobowl. We truly believe Eurobowl could survive as usual due to it very commited community of players. We don't think also that people will choice European Open before WC if they could do. And we think there is an avidity to have an open team tournament at european level.
Generaljason, as Sebco pointed out, to participate in Eurobowl under your selection criteria, goblins will not have any chance to be qualified. Why we should force players to be competitive in order to play an European Team Tournament?
This was my point. All we play for win. But to have 2-4-0 with Nurgle is also a win for the player even if they end the tournament in the middle of the table.
I don't want to set up a qualifier plenty of Undead, Dwarf, Wood Elf and Orc just to choose who deserves to play an international tournament. I prefer to spend my effort in to set up an European Open Tournament plenty of different races and coaches doing whatever they want do.
And moreover, I don't think I have the prerogative to comment anything about Eurobowl management. And never pretend to do it. I just comment about Eurobowl as a part of the consideration about affecting already existing tournaments. |
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Kewan |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 03, 2012 - 05:23 AM
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Joined: Sep 13, 2005
Undisclosed
Posts: 29
Location: Undisclosed
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Pako wrote:
We could call again Kewan and he (as Spanish captain of Spanish Team) could confirm I never want (and will never want) play Eurobowl. So bitching is not there.
In the spanish forum, Pako and his "followers" never said that Eurobowl must dissapear or Euronaf must substitute Eurobowl, they always have said let's play both tournaments. And Pako has said several times he will never play Eurobowl with Spanish team, he only will play with EL PRAT team, when they get the independence of Spain (Obviusly, that's a joke)
I've read several people that think like me, new tourneys are good, whenever another tournament isn't harm, but this tourney for me it's not new, it's a bad copy of Eurobowl/WC and it's against Eurobowl interest |
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Grumbledook |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 03, 2012 - 09:08 AM
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Joined: Feb 10, 2003
Posts: 922
Status: Offline
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| Not sure why you feel like that, imo it runs exactly along the same lines as the Eurobowl and the WC in that it is trying to get more interaction between the national communities. |
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'Boomshanker an Interception'
Jon
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Pipey |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 25, 2012 - 10:29 AM
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Joined: Jun 02, 2004
England
Posts: 326
Location: England
Status: Offline
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(slight thread resurrection)
Hi Pako
Hopefully the feedback in this thread has been useful. What do you feel is the best way to move forward with this?
My personal favourite idea would be the suggestion of tagging onto existing large European team events e.g Lutece, Rugbowl, Dream Teams (etc.) on a rotational basis. Perhaps on a biannual basis as you have suggested. Of course this would require discussion / agreement with the other TOs involved.
Though as a TO of this tournament, how to structure it would be your call.
Thanks
Brendan |
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Ironjaw |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 25, 2012 - 02:57 PM
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Joined: Feb 28, 2006
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Posts: 37
Status: Offline
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| I would never attend this tournament. |
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longfang |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 25, 2012 - 04:43 PM
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Joined: Feb 12, 2003
Posts: 189
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Ironjaw wrote: I would never attend this tournament.
For what reason? |
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Grumbledook |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 25, 2012 - 06:44 PM
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Joined: Feb 10, 2003
Posts: 922
Status: Offline
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| he came 4th to last at the world cup, fears a repeat ;] |
_________________
'Boomshanker an Interception'
Jon
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