| Author |
Message |
Lackuwaxa |
|
Post subject: Conceding the Match
 Posted: Oct 07, 2005 - 06:21 PM
|
|
Joined: Oct 06, 2005
Townsville
Posts: 12
Status: Offline
|
|
Here is a question. I was playing the other day with My 'umans Vs some Skaven, it was my second game of the season and the Skavens first, due to some freaky dice rolling (nuffle loves me) and some good play, the score was 1-1 by the 6th turn of the first half, but my opponent only had 5 guys still on the pitch (2 dead, 2 Serious, 1 Sent off for a foul, and a couple of KO's) now he conceded the game (which personally I hate) now I know I should win, but the score is 1-1, what happens, also what would happen if the score was in his favour? I can sort of see where he would be upset that his team was decimated but in a league it looks like a draw or could even look as a lost just on the result. Looking in PBBL 1.9 there is no rules to cover this, what does every1 do? is a house rule that 2 random TD are awarded to the non-pansy team the only option?
Galak, are you guys looking at something like this in 1.10?
Lack |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
 |
|
Khaine |
|
|
Post subject: Re: Conceding the Match
Posted: Oct 07, 2005 - 09:00 PM
|
|
Joined: Sep 06, 2003
Posts: 193
Status: Offline
|
|
Lackuwaxa wrote: Here is a question. I was playing the other day with My 'umans Vs some Skaven, it was my second game of the season and the Skavens first, due to some freaky dice rolling (nuffle loves me) and some good play, the score was 1-1 by the 6th turn of the first half, but my opponent only had 5 guys still on the pitch (2 dead, 2 Serious, 1 Sent off for a foul, and a couple of KO's) now he conceded the game (which personally I hate) now I know I should win, but the score is 1-1, what happens, also what would happen if the score was in his favour? I can sort of see where he would be upset that his team was decimated but in a league it looks like a draw or could even look as a lost just on the result. Looking in PBBL 1.9 there is no rules to cover this, what does every1 do? is a house rule that 2 random TD are awarded to the non-pansy team the only option?
Galak, are you guys looking at something like this in 1.10?
One would hope it would be the same or similar to the LRB 4.0 which gives the "winner" or person who is NOT conceeding a 2-0 victory, with both mvp's going to the winner. You also get the other teams money for the match. |
_________________
Touch my Mini's and Pull Back A Stump!!!!!
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Lackuwaxa |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Oct 07, 2005 - 11:17 PM
|
|
Joined: Oct 06, 2005
Townsville
Posts: 12
Status: Offline
|
|
LRB 4. P45 Conceding
If one coachconcedes the match the the winer gains all of the losers'smoney (from the games gate) and his MVP, and may add +2 to his fan factor roll. In addition, the loser automatically loses one Fan Factor and may not roll for a new one, and any players in the loser's team that have 51SPPs or more will leave the team on a D6 roll of 1-3. Roll Seperately for each player with 51 or more SPPs to see if they leave.
Khaine, this is what LRB 4.0 says, I agree with what you say that it SHOULD give the winner 2 TD's, but it doesn't say that. So what can happen is a team can get 2-1 up, then concede, they lose the gate and the MVP, but they will still effectivly "win" as they have more TD's and although you know they conceded if you look back at the result on a match record later it will appear that they won, as ell as increasing the for/against percentage.
Lack |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Paul |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Oct 08, 2005 - 01:08 AM
|
|
Joined: Feb 18, 2005
Canada
Posts: 423
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
|
|
yea it doesn't actually say what the final score is, I guess its up to the commisioner of the leauge.
When I ran my leauge, (before LRB was out) I made it an automatic 5-0 loss for the team giving up (unless the opposing team had scored more than 5 TD's) We used TD Differential as a tie breaker in the standings, and I felt that a 2-0 loss wasn't enough.
So, if you're loosing 3-1, and you're opponent coneeds, you get a 5-0 win (in my system) while you're opponent doesnt get credit for his TDs that he scored.
Also, I put a rule in about a team being unable to field 3 players at a kick-off being allowed to conceed without penalty if they want. I think you gotta stop the bleeding at some point for a player. If he decides to quit before this point, tag him with all the penalties in LRB.
Finally, I don't think the TDs that are awarded are given to anyplayers and don't count for SPPs, they're just put in the standings. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Khaine |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Oct 08, 2005 - 09:02 AM
|
|
Joined: Sep 06, 2003
Posts: 193
Status: Offline
|
|
| Hmmm could have sworn there was something about a 2-0 victory margin in the LRB but it must have been LRB 3.0... Something should be put back in as a correction if it hasn't already been corrected in the Vault rules.. Allowing someone to conceed into a victory doesn't make any sense... If you give up your not winning your losing... Of course I haven't had a conceed yet, almost had a DE coach who thought I wouldn't be able to manhandle his elves with my lower AV pro elves, until I won every kickoff result with my higher ff <11 vs 5 for some reason people in my league believe in lower fan factors>, and proceeded to stomp every dark elf I could get a TZ on. I usually try to win by putting players on their butt and in TZ so they have to waste movement getting up, and can't catch my fast moving players... This really seems to work <last game against dwarves was 5-1 with 3-1 cas in my favor.> Anyway enough about my games but I do think that conceeding should be an automatic win for the person who is NOT conceeding... as far as point margin goes I'd say just reduce the TD to 0 of the other team and let it go as that. If they conceed so early in a match that you haven't scored then bump the winners score to 1. The only way this would effect anything is in a league where playoff sead is determined by td's and or casualties <but if you make a team conceed then they are hurting pretty badly.> |
_________________
Touch my Mini's and Pull Back A Stump!!!!!
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Lackuwaxa |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Oct 08, 2005 - 10:39 PM
|
|
Joined: Oct 06, 2005
Townsville
Posts: 12
Status: Offline
|
|
I agree with what you are saying, how do you get this put into the LRB for the next edition or submit to the PBBL? I know a lot of people (Twats i like to call them) who will use this in a league, maybe i'm different to most coaches out there but I dont think that 20 House rules is the best way to run a league, I would pefer that they be in Black and White (arguing can get so violent  )
Lack |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
GalakStarscraper |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Oct 09, 2005 - 09:22 AM
|
|
Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 1562
Status: Offline
|
|
The rules for concession already say you win the game ... why in a tabletop league would you need to change the score? The score is meaningless ... as I wouldn't even write it down for the league ... instead of listing 1-1 I'd write Concession by X.
As for the 2-0 victory ... That's on page 41 and is what happens when someone refuses a challenge.
For league play, I don't see why the score matters or why special rules would be needed to change the score. Isn't the victory enough?
Galak |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Narkotic |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Oct 09, 2005 - 12:09 PM
|
|
Joined: Feb 10, 2003
Posts: 178
Status: Offline
|
|
| In leagues play-off participants are usually determined by their points according to their victories and ties (or whatevery you please). With several teams having the same final score you need a tie-brekaer and the TD net-count (or whatever) comes into mind. Then it does make a difference. At least in our league that might be decisive in certain situations. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Oct 09, 2005 - 01:54 PM
|
|
Joined: Feb 10, 2003
Undisclosed
Posts: 2696
Location: Undisclosed
|
|
GalakStarscraper wrote: The rules for concession already say you win the game ... why in a tabletop league would you need to change the score?
Some leagues (like mine) base the league score on more than just w/d/l.
We used the rule that the score would end up as if you'd beaten the opponent by 2 (so if they were 3-0 up, and conceded [don't ask me hy!  ], you'd win by the score of 5-3. No SPP's were awarded though. |
_________________
_____ and rankings - that is all
#27 of the "24 club" (due to some dodgy accounting)
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
GalakStarscraper |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Oct 09, 2005 - 04:06 PM
|
|
Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 1562
Status: Offline
|
|
Okay ... but here is the point from my stance as rulebook editor.
No where is the rules does it recommend using TDs to decide who is on top in your league. So by definition using TDs in this manner is a house rule ... and as such ... you should have a house rule as well to deal with concessions.
I have a rule in the MBBL2 where the winner of a concession gets 1 TD for each 5 full turns left for him to play. If this doesn't give him enough TDs to win, then he gets enough to win by 1 TD. But that is a house rule since TDs matter for my league.
The rulebook should have to say anything about TDs for a concession because the method suggested for deciding you plays in the finals use win ratios and team values.
So do I think you should have a house rule to cover this matter if it is important (yes, my own does as well) ... do I think the rulebook needs to have text on this (no, I don't).
Galak |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Lackuwaxa |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Oct 10, 2005 - 12:45 AM
|
|
Joined: Oct 06, 2005
Townsville
Posts: 12
Status: Offline
|
|
Galak? Where is the answer in that?
If it doesn't work make a house rule? surely that then would defeat the purpose of having a rule book.
Ok, I accept your answer that using net-TD to determin playoffs is not in the rule book, it just seems the obvious and most common method of determining a tie, what then is the "official" way to determin a league tie? Obviously all of us are doing it wrong, if you feel that net-TD is a house rule.
I have looked through the Rule book and cant see any way to determine a tie, I am fairly sure that at MOAB (sydney, AU) that in the event of a tie Net-TD was used, what is used in the official tournaments? or are they also required to make house rules?
Lack  |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
GalakStarscraper |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Oct 10, 2005 - 08:13 AM
|
|
Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 1562
Status: Offline
|
|
I am not in favor of the rulebook trying to tell you in great minute detail how to run your league playoff.
There are numerous ways to do this. Personally I perfer the World Chess Organization point system for breaking ties and use that in my own league to break ties. I don't plan on putting this in the rulebook but that would be my recommended method.
This element of a league is really the jurisdiction of the commish. The rulebook currently has two recommended methods for determining who plays in the playoffs. One is by Team Value and the other by Winning %. Having text in there on how to break ties seems overboard and getting into the turf of the commish in my opinion. You like Net TDs ... I use WCO points. Whose to say which way is the best for this type of thing?
Its not that I'm dodging the question. I just really feel that the rulebook getting into how to break ties on who plays in the finals is over the top. And where then do we stop. I've seen Net TDs in a league I played in tie for the season ... should the rulebook say what to use in case the tie breaker ties? There just becomes a point where we have to trust the commish ... that point to me is when a tie breaker is needed.
Galak |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Lackuwaxa |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Oct 10, 2005 - 03:29 PM
|
|
Joined: Oct 06, 2005
Townsville
Posts: 12
Status: Offline
|
|
Galak,
I don't agree, the PBBL rules go into great detail about Leagues and that seems to be where they are aimed, surely adding an extra 2 or 3 lines wont change much in the rule book.
What is more important to a league than arranging how someone wins? I think if you are going to allow someone to concede a match and you know that a large portion of leagues out there use net-td as a first tie breaker, usually then net-cas if a tie then ... Then something should be developed for it.
I think your attitude that it should just be left up to the commish is a cop out.
IMO
Lack |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
GalakStarscraper |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Oct 10, 2005 - 03:53 PM
|
|
Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 1562
Status: Offline
|
|
Anyone else want to weigh in on this?
Should the official rules include verbage on what happens to the score for a concession? If so how many TDs should the player win by? What if there is only 3 turns left and he's ahead by 1 already. What if it is the 2nd turn of the 1st half and no one has scored yet at all? What if the score is 4-1 and the player that conceeds is the one with 4 TDs?
Just keep in mind any verbage would have to officially answer all of these questions ... all of which before where left to the commish's discretion. I'm open here if this is something the game actually needs.
Galak |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Paul |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Oct 10, 2005 - 04:40 PM
|
|
Joined: Feb 18, 2005
Canada
Posts: 423
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
|
|
I agree with Galak that its not necessary to put into the official rules.
Any league is going to have their own house rules involved. And if you decide to use TDs as a tie breaker, then you should include the number of TD's you get for a game where someone conceeds as one of the house rules.
There should be no arguement about it, the Commish of the league should stand up and say, you conceeded the game, you loose, and you loose by x touchdowns as far as the standings go. If he doesn't have the guts to do that, then he probably shouldn't be a Blood Bowl Commishioner |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
