| Author |
Message |
zootsuitjeff |
|
Post subject: North American Team Championship Ruleset Posted
 Posted: Jun 07, 2012 - 01:14 PM
|
|
Joined: Jan 29, 2010
United States of America
Posts: 125
Location: United States of America
Status: Offline
|
|
The NATC ruleset draft has been posted at:
http://www.northamericanteamchampionship.com/info/
Please have a look and let us know your thoughts here. These are more or less finalized, but we still welcome any feedback or questions and can still make changes for anything that is unclear or problematic.
Thanks! |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
 |
|
SolarFlare |
|
|
Post subject: RE: North American Team Championship Ruleset Posted
Posted: Jun 07, 2012 - 02:16 PM
|
|
Joined: Nov 24, 2004
Posts: 199
Status: Offline
|
|
| Looks great. Quick observation - Day 1 will be ending at 8pm local time. I think that's 11pm EST. Which will be a bit late for folks coming from the east coast. I don't see this as a terrible thing, but it may cut into the hanging out time afterward. (Not sure if I can make it at this point, so take my feedback with a grain of salt.) |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
zootsuitjeff |
|
|
Post subject: Re: RE: North American Team Championship Ruleset Posted
Posted: Jun 07, 2012 - 02:23 PM
|
|
Joined: Jan 29, 2010
United States of America
Posts: 125
Location: United States of America
Status: Offline
|
|
SolarFlare wrote: Looks great. Quick observation - Day 1 will be ending at 8pm local time. I think that's 11pm EST. Which will be a bit late for folks coming from the east coast. I don't see this as a terrible thing, but it may cut into the hanging out time afterward. (Not sure if I can make it at this point, so take my feedback with a grain of salt.)
I believe the reasoning for that is to give people a chance to book an early flight and still make it in to the tournament on time, saving an extra night's room if they need to cut costs. Luckily the venue is just a 5 minute taxi ride from the airport.
You better be there Frank! |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Lizardcore |
|
|
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: North American Team Championship Ruleset Posted
Posted: Jun 07, 2012 - 04:07 PM
|
|
Joined: Apr 07, 2004
Posts: 513
Status: Offline
|
|
Each coach must build a team with TV1100k (1.1 million gp starting build), with 2 regular skills and one double skill assigned to three separate players on each team before Game 1, and one regular and one double result skill assigned to separate players prior to Game 4 and Game 7, for a total of seven (7) skills by Day 3.
=> this should be explained a bit better.
1/ build your team with 1.1 million (what can you buy not buy ?)
2/ assigned 3 skills
3/ ...
4/ ... |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Krannix |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Jun 07, 2012 - 06:10 PM
|
|
Joined: Dec 07, 2008
Posts: 1
Status: Offline
|
|
This might be crazy, but start day 2 at 8am. That way it ends at 5 and there's more time for Saturday evening festivities. Day 1 makes sense with early flights. I guess I was thinking Day 2 and 3 have same start time. Just my humble opinion.
Thanks for submitting the rules. I am following you on twitter and you're doing a great job. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
DarkOrk20 |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Jun 07, 2012 - 06:54 PM
|
|
Joined: Aug 24, 2005
United States of America
Posts: 300
Location: United States of America
Status: Offline
|
|
| The rules state that you must assign 2 normal skills and a double skill. Can the double skill be a normal skill instead? |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
zootsuitjeff |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Jun 08, 2012 - 12:23 AM
|
|
Joined: Jan 29, 2010
United States of America
Posts: 125
Location: United States of America
Status: Offline
|
|
| yes of course. A double skill just means any skill you could pick with a double roll. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Khail |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Jun 08, 2012 - 07:55 PM
|
|
Joined: Feb 14, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 63
Location: United States of America
Status: Offline
|
|
As a couple of us brought up on the Thunderbowl thread - there are some concerns about the progression format favoring the already top tournament teams as opposed to a set skill format like Spike/RCR/Iron Mike/etc use, which encourage a more diverse spread of teams.
From the TB Thread:
Quote: We all know that the power scale of a team shifts as it develops - some teams more so than others. As Blood Bowl has enough randomness in it already, it makes sense to eliminate the variable of development for a tournament if you're seeking for the tourney to be a test of skill, not a test of "well, I got matched up against Wood Elves before I could get my toolkit skills, so yeah, that sucked".
As Warpstone mentioned, it pushes people to play the races that already come pre-built with most of what they need - Dwarfs, Chaos Dwarfs, Orcs, etc. Competitive players won't consider any of the other races because having to play an entire day without all their toolkit skills doesn't bode well for their results.
There's a good reason we don't use progression for tournaments anymore, and the variety of races showing up at Spike/RCR/etc are a testament to how well it works.
I'm a strong advocate for a skill package setup with a cap on skills (i.e. you can only add a given skill to your team twice). It's the most balanced tournament format we've been able to come up with in the PNW so far. |
_________________
NAF Regional Tournament Coordinator
United States Pacific Northwest
Commissioner
Rat City Blood Bowl League
Seattle, WA
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Lizardcore |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Jun 08, 2012 - 11:30 PM
|
|
Joined: Apr 07, 2004
Posts: 513
Status: Offline
|
|
Khail wrote: I'm a strong advocate for a skill package setup with a cap on skills (i.e. you can only add a given skill to your team twice). It's the most balanced tournament format we've been able to come up with in the PNW so far.
Agree for the skill package, totally disagree for the skill cap:
- WE and Undead will never need more than 2 x the same skill
- Amazons without Guard x 4 or Necro without Block x 4 are just screwed.
The better you could do is TV 110 + 5 skills (guess what, almost all tournies in europe are like that).
The potential winners are then: WE, DE, Orks, Dwarves, Amazones, Norse, Skaven, Necro, Chaos Dwarves, Lizardmen, Undead.
for example, with the Chaos cup format (purchased skills), the teams with expensive rerolls are advantaged (cause they can buy leader, therefore all the effort done to balance the rosters by increasing reroll costs are ruined -_- ). i.e. for the chaos cup: top teams are Undead, Orcs, Norse, with Chaos dwarfs not so far and Wood elves. The list goes from 11 to 5 competitive teams... not sure that's the goal.
On another hand, north American coaches are nice and not even trying to win games, so bloodbowl tournaments are still a tone of fun !
If you want more diversity, then give more skills to the tier 2 and tier 3 teams. This is what is being tested more and more. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Khail |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Jun 08, 2012 - 11:51 PM
|
|
Joined: Feb 14, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 63
Location: United States of America
Status: Offline
|
|
| If you don't cap skills, you end up with Dwarves with 5-6x Guard and Lizards with 6 blocking Saurus, etc, again making the strong stronger. Amazons have been doing fine without 4x Guard in our tourneys out here. Capped skills leaves you with vastly more diverse teams - knowing that you won't have to face 6 guards on a dwarf team encourages diversity in and of itself. |
_________________
NAF Regional Tournament Coordinator
United States Pacific Northwest
Commissioner
Rat City Blood Bowl League
Seattle, WA
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
SierraKiloBravo |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Jun 09, 2012 - 08:42 AM
|
|
Joined: Jun 22, 2008
Dublin CA
Posts: 60
Location: Dublin CA
Status: Offline
|
|
Khail wrote: If you don't cap skills, you end up with Dwarves with 5-6x Guard and Lizards with 6 blocking Saurus, etc, again making the strong stronger. Amazons have been doing fine without 4x Guard in our tourneys out here. Capped skills leaves you with vastly more diverse teams - knowing that you won't have to face 6 guards on a dwarf team encourages diversity in and of itself.
Khail, these are all good points. I believe we'd briefly discussed this skill cap while I was writing the ruleset, but we left it out.
I sort of disagree with a dwarf team going all Guard or a lizard team going all block on the Saurus amounting to "making the strong stronger", as in my experience making these skill choices actually hamstrings most of the rest of the team. Sure, six blocking Saurus are tough, but that leaves the skinks as untouched. On the odd chance that the Saurus ends up with the ball, you're then left to seeing whether or not you've made allowance in your own team build for extracting the ball from a ST4 carrier.
At any rate, I'm discussing these concerns with Jeff now. I'm honestly indifferent to the skill cap/no skill cap issue, but that indifference is why I'm discussing it with Jeff.
Thanks for the input everyone so far. |
_________________
Control the lightning.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Xtreme |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Jun 09, 2012 - 11:41 AM
|
|
Da Boss
Joined: Mar 12, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 1096
Location: United States of America
Status: Offline
|
|
Lizardcore wrote:
for example, with the Chaos cup format (purchased skills), the teams with expensive rerolls are advantaged (cause they can buy leader, therefore all the effort done to balance the rosters by increasing reroll costs are ruined -_- ). i.e. for the chaos cup: top teams are Undead, Orcs, Norse, with Chaos dwarfs not so far and Wood elves. The list goes from 11 to 5 competitive teams... not sure that's the goal.
1 cheaper reroll hardly changes the balance of the game. And I would argue there are a lot more then 5 competitive teams with that rules pack. Considering in the top ten last year there were 7 different races. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Lizardcore |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Jun 09, 2012 - 06:16 PM
|
|
Joined: Apr 07, 2004
Posts: 513
Status: Offline
|
|
Some more elements that you can think of and see if they make sense or not. I just feel like discussing tonight ! But really it's your call, and I will be forever thankfull for the work you guys are pulling out so we can have a good time.
A bit of analysis:
How are amazons winning games => out-guarding most of the teams (norse, orcs, etc...)
Who is always winning tournaments ? Undeads and Wood elves.
Undead: Block on mummy, block on ghoul, guard on a wight, frenzy or tacle on a wight, guard on mummy, and the last skills doesnt really mater.
WE: Guard on 1 catcher (or 2), strip ball or tackle on a WD, frenzy on the other WD, leader, wrestle...
Is the cap affecting the teams that are already always winning ? => no.
Is the cap affecting other teams ? => yes (amazones, dwarfs, necro). And as there is less dwarf / amazones, that makes the norse and orcs much stronger, as they are not out-guarded. Therefore, they can just take tackle without an hesitation, as they only have to worry about WE / Undeads.
as for the cost of a reroll.
Why is the amazon reroll so cheap ? cause it's a roster were you're supposed to have lots of player.
An amazon gets 20/30 k back by trading a RR for a leader (as the elves).
Undeads, CD are getting 40k back which is 2 skills.
If you think it's the same, why are you not giving +1 skill to undead and chaos dwarves when you give skill packs ? |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Jonny_P |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Jun 09, 2012 - 06:42 PM
|
|
Joined: Feb 10, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 899
Location: United States of America
Status: Offline
|
|
Make sure to account for the extra work for the organizing staff and the possibility for coach error with adding skills later in the tournament.
I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but there are more variables to think about. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Xtreme |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Jun 09, 2012 - 09:09 PM
|
|
Da Boss
Joined: Mar 12, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 1096
Location: United States of America
Status: Offline
|
|
| You make some excellent points Lizardcore. I don't want to derail this thread further talking about Chaos Cup but I would like to continue the conversation so i'll be PMing you. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
