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Strategy and Tactics - Strength and Weaknesses of each roster.
neoliminal - Jan 23, 2004 - 09:52 AM
Post subject: Strength and Weaknesses of each roster.
I've been working on a quick glance guide for the strategic strengths and weaknesses of each roster. The new rosters are not yet included, but I wanted to get feedback and input from the NAF community.
Updated with Nemeses data from FUMBBL (Thanks Christer)
John -
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Amazon
Strengths: Starting with Dodge makes them very hard to knock over. Amazingly cheap Re-Rolls allows for a good starting roster. One of the best blitzers in the game, since they start with Block/Dodge. Every linewoman can become a blitzer type with a single skill (block). Quick development as starting team.
Weaknesses: Low armour value means injuries can pile up. Any team that has invested in Tackle will hurt this team very badly and requires a completely different style of play for the amazon coach to defeat. Slower development as veteran team. Movement Allowance 6 makes outrunning even the slowest opponents hard.
Nemeses: Chaos Dwarf, Dwarf
Chaos
Strengths: Strength 4 players who can get Physical Traits. Strength 4 players who have AG 3 (do they can handle the ball). Linemen who can take Physical Traits.
Weaknesses: One dimensional team, with little room for tactical play decisions. Easy to target ball handlers.
Nemeses: Undead, Khemri, Amazon
Chaos Dwarf
Strengths: Six great blockers and two great blitzers with Strength Skill Access. Very inexpensive linemen.
Weaknesses: Linemen are the ball handlers and can be easy targets. Bull Centaurs are expensive and hard to replace.
Nemeses: Khemri, Undead, Skaven
Dark Elf
Strengths: Blocking game enhanced by ability to dodge extra assists into place. Superior ball handling skill on both offense and defense.
Weaknesses: Expensive to replace players. Slow building team. No Strength Skill access.
Nemeses: Necromatic, Chaos Dwarf, Dwarf
Dwarf
Strengths: Cheap Re-Rolls. Block on nearly all players, tackle on all linemen. Favour a methodical play style that prefers lower scroring games. Best blocking team. Superior AV and Thick Skull make them hard to take out of the game.
Weaknesses: Slower Movement Allowance requires exceptional postional play. Can be outscored early in games. No passing game on offense.
Nemeses: Vampire, Undead, Khemri
Elf
Strengths:
Weaknesses:
Nemeses: Human, Chaos Dwarf, Dwarf
Goblin
Strengths: Very cheap linemen. Stunty access allow exceptional freedom of movement. Rigth Stuff allows for Thrown Players to score in one turn.
Weaknesses: Fragile players who are easily injured.
Nemeses: Dwarf, Undead, Orc... (all)
Halfling
Strengths: Extremely cheap linemen. Stunty access allow exceptional freedom of movement. Rigth Stuff allows for Thrown Players to score in one turn.
Weaknesses: Extremely fragile players who are easily injured. Slow movement.
Nemeses: Orc, Human, Dark Elf... (all)
High Elf
Strengths: Superior ball handling skill on both offense and defense. Very agile passing game means ball movement is never a problem.
Weaknesses: Expensive to replace players. Slow building team. No Strength Skill access.
Nemeses: Undead, Lizardman, Dwarf
Human
Strengths: Adaptive ability to exploit opponents weaknesses. Adept at running or passing the ball. Useful starting skills on all position players. Low Re-Roll costs. Strong team building abilities.
Weaknesses: No stand-out abilities to exploit. Requires ability to pick apart opponents weaknesses to succeed.
Nemeses: High Elf, Nurgle's Rotters, Necromatic
Khemri
Strengths:
Weaknesses:
Nemeses: Human, Necromatic, Orc
Lizardmen
Strengths: Extreme position players dictate play style. Six Strength 4 players and up to twelve MA 8 players with stunty make for an impressive running game.
Weaknesses: Weak skinks are easily hurt, Saurus can't handle the ball.
Nemeses: Dwarf, Chaos Dwarf, Skaven
Necromantic
Strengths:
Weaknesses:
Nemeses: Undead, Amazon, Chaos Dwarf
Norse
Strengths: All players start with Block, so the first skill most coaches would normally give a player are already on the team. With passers, catchers and blitzers, the team can play a balanced offense and can hurt opponents with block on defense.
Weaknesses: Low AV means the team will have a bad game eventually. Coaches that don't keep money in reserve will pay the price later. Early season wins eventually lead to veteran team loses as the low AV starts to take it's toll. Movement Allowance 6 makes outrunning even the slowest opponents hard.
Nemeses: Undead, Chaos Dwarf, Orc
Nurgle's Rotters
Strengths:
Weaknesses:
Nemeses:
Orc
Strengths: Throwers, blitzers and amazing blockers mean this team can definately run the ball. Goblins on the roster mean the deep pass is a threat. Very high AV keeps players in the game.
Weaknesses: Slower than most teams. Can have a hard time against Dodge heavy teams who play a non-contact style. Have trouble coming from behind if opponent gets an early lead.
Nemeses: Elf, Amazon, Wood Elf
Skaven
Strengths: Extremely fast players can create plays almost anywhere on the board. Gutter Runners can become on turn scorers. Passing game, from either throwers or Gutter Runners, a constant threat to score.
Weaknesses: Low AV means key players can be removed from the game. Most players can be forced into blocking game because they lack dodge.
Nemeses: Undead, High Elf, Human, Dark Elf
Undead
Strengths: Mummies are extremely strong for position players. Regeneration keeps home grown stars from being removed from the game and prevents the team from losing a battle of attrition.
Weaknesses: Linemen are very weak and slow. No passers mean Ghouls have to work both sides for a passing game. Mummies low MA can keep them out of the play.
Nemeses: Khemri, Nurgle's Rotters, Dark Elf
Woodelves
Strengths: Easy scoring with very fast, high agility players. Ability to take ball away from opposing players with Wood Elves. Scoring threat even with very few players on the field.
Weaknesses: Light AV means casualties can mount. Expensive players are hard to replace.
Nemeses: Undead, Amazon, Chaos Dwarf
Mordredd - Jan 23, 2004 - 10:53 AM
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Looks good to me. I have just a few suggested additions.
Halflings low MA of 5 seems like an obvious weakness to me. I would be tempted to say that Goblins are a bit slow too. They also lack the ability to easily develop a dedicated ball handler, having to roll a double to get sure hands.
Norse and Amazon's straight 6 MA makes it difficult for them to outrun even the slowest of teams. Norse vs Orcs is a good case in point. They have an overall ST and AV disadvantage, so tend to lose a long term blocking match. But they don't have the speed necessary to run away either.
Tutenkharnage - Jan 23, 2004 - 11:21 AM
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Where are the Wood Elves?
Regarding what's written, I don't understand how Orcs can be the only team labeled "one of the best teams." This tag certainly belongs with Human and Skaven teams as well.
-Chet
Zombie - Jan 23, 2004 - 07:00 PM
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I agree that halflings are a bit slow, but goblins certainly aren't. MA6, stunty and dodge means you can get pretty much anywhere.
I'd list 4+ regeneration as a weakness as well as a strength. It's not as good at keeping your players alive as an apothecary, and ghouls don't have it. But as an upside, it makes your team almost impossible to reduce in numbers in a single game. Also add cheap linemen as a strength for that team.
Mestari - Jan 24, 2004 - 01:35 AM
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Some justifications for the nemesis choices might be in order. Maybe a text briefly summarising why the team is their nemesis. I have hard time understanding some of the choices, unless the choices are mostly fluff-based.
The elf teams have the advantage of being easily able to develop their linemen.
Mestari - Jan 24, 2004 - 01:40 AM
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For example: Undead is listed as the Wood elf teams nemesis. However, the undead usually have a very small amount of Tackle players, they have very low mobility and definitely are less of a threat to wood elves than more mobile or more tackle-heavy teams. I'm interested to hear the justifications for that choice. Dark Elves as Amazons nemesis is another peculiar choice. Or is it just that they are fluff choices?
Zombie - Jan 24, 2004 - 02:35 AM
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I thought it was obvious that the nemesis bit was fluff after i read just the first one : amazon's nemesis were not presented as the dwarves.
TuernRedvenom - Jan 24, 2004 - 06:38 AM
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Zombie wrote:
I thought it was obvious that the nemesis bit was fluff after i read just the first one : amazon's nemesis were not presented as the dwarves.
I was sure the nemesis wasn't fluff based after I read Dark Elves nemesis to be dwarves (I personally think chaos dwarves are toughest to beat with DE, but anyway), if it was fluff based this clearly should have been the High Elves.
neoliminal - Jan 24, 2004 - 08:33 AM
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The current list of nemeses was based on fluff and game data taken from FUMBBL. It's very open to changes and was added as an afterthought. This is an interactive list, so please suggest changes.
Zombie - Jan 24, 2004 - 02:26 PM
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Nemesis for each race, off the top of my head (no fluff in my list, so don't rate it on that level):
Amazon - Dwarf (tackle vs dodge)
Chaos - Chaos dwarf (the best long term team but worst short term should have the best short term team as its nemesis)
Chaos Dwarf - Orc (bull centaurs must hate getting tied up by black orcs)
Dark Elf - Wood Elf (don't elves hate being matched up against faster elves?)
Dwarf - Wood Elf (hard to catch up with once they escape, and wardancers are the greatest cage busters)
Goblin - Dwarf (tackle anyone?)
Halfling - Dwarf (need i say more?)
High Elf - Chaos Dwarf (tackle + fast bull centaurs to bring down the ST3 catchers)
Human - Orc (the team who's only strength is exploiting the other team's weekness must have a hard time against the only other team that doesn't have weeknesses)
Lizardman - Chaos Dwarf (block/tackle to take out the skinks, but still fast enough to catch up with them)
Norse - Dwarf (don't you hate it when everyone one the other team has block as well, but +2 AV over you?)
Orc - High Elf (tough to find a nemesis for orcs; but for me when playing orcs, elf teams are the most annoying)
Skaven - Chaos Dwarf (it's always tough for an AV7 team without dodge or AG4 to face those bullies)
Undead - Wood Elf (what good is regeneration against a team that won't hit?)
Wood Elf - Chaos (both are the strongest long term teams, while being such total opposites in playing style)
Dave - Jan 24, 2004 - 02:31 PM
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I guess I agree zombie ..
neoliminal - Jan 24, 2004 - 03:19 PM
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There are four teams on zombies list. (if you equate Dark and High elves)
Dave - Jan 25, 2004 - 07:44 AM
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neoliminal wrote:
There are four teams on zombies list. (if you equate Dark and High elves)
that's also because Orc and Dwarves are pretty tough to play against in any case (at least, I don't like playing against them ...)
neoliminal - Jan 25, 2004 - 09:04 AM
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When I first started making this list, I noticed that I was putting the same teams as nemeses over and over. Seems I was putting the teams I had a problem playing against, not the teams the rosters had problems against.
By what zombie has put here, there are only four teams you should ever play, since they are the nemesis of all the other teams.
I think I need a more statistical analysis from actual game data... 
Dave - Jan 25, 2004 - 09:07 AM
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I also think it depends a lot (big lot) on the coach. Some Wood Elf voaches (longshot) are a nightmare to play against and some others are a piece of cake.
the coach makes a big difference
neoliminal - Jan 25, 2004 - 09:12 AM
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I agree the coach makes a difference, but obviously there are some teams that any coach would prefer not the play. Some rosters a just harder to play against for each given team. Even longshot would prefer to play certain roster types when he plays woodelves.
Dave - Jan 25, 2004 - 09:17 AM
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probabely.
I do think the 'nemesisses (??)' could indeed be limited to mostly Orcs. All round and survivable
neoliminal - Jan 25, 2004 - 09:27 AM
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I think what we need is the team that each roster has the hardest time beating, in general. Is should be a team that normally exploits the weaknesses of the team and/or defeats the advantages the team hold.
Zombie - Jan 25, 2004 - 01:06 PM
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neoliminal wrote:
There are four teams on zombies list. (if you equate Dark and High elves)
Actually, there are 6 teams. Out of the potential 15, it's not that bad. You can't seriously expect halflings and goblins to be any team's nemesis.
Zombie - Jan 25, 2004 - 01:08 PM
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If you absolutely need a 7th team, replace wood elves by undead as the dwarves' nemesis. It's frustrating for a bashing team to play against regeneration.
Mestari - Jan 25, 2004 - 01:28 PM
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Dwarves nemesis would be the Khemri. Four ST5 players are a tough bit to swallow for the all-ST3 team.
neoliminal - Jan 25, 2004 - 01:40 PM
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Zombie: I don't mind have a couple of teams as nemeses for each (hence the plural usage.) So if you like, please expand your list to include more teams.
Mestari: It seems to me that Dwarves would have some advantage against Khemri with two players that included Dauntless. I don't really know because I've never played Dwarves against Khemri.
Dave - Jan 25, 2004 - 02:41 PM
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I think I would prefer a st5 player to help me out against the mummies than a dauntless player. I failed dauntless with my ST2 slayer too often .. (I hate snake eyes)
One ST5 feels (is??) more reliable
I think Undead / Khemri are pretty 'nemeses'against dwarves
pfooti - Jan 26, 2004 - 09:33 AM
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After playing the Elf roster a bit, I have some strengths / weaknesses. The list is longer than neo's per-team list, I just wanted to be thorough.
Strengths:
Cheaper linemen and passers mean starting rosters can have more position players or rerolls (or both).
Nerves of Steel catchers are an amazing scoring threat. This team is the king of the two turn score. They've got the best passing game, period.
Nerves of Steel catchers also make good passblockers. You've got 4 on the roster, so you can afford to develop two with passblock, shadowing, tackle, diving tackle. That can really shut down your opponent's passing game.
High agility means your guard/tackle players can get where they need to go. It also means your linemen all can advance quickly if you want to (not too hard to throw a quick pass, for example, or even catch and score).
Weaknesses:
Low armor means you're going to die, die, die.
Earlier positional access (compared to other elf teams) means linemen won't necessarily get skilled up as much. By game 5, my elves managed to win 4-0, with only the MVP SPPs going to a lineman, the rest going to Catchers, Blitzers, and Passers.
No big guy or star access.
pfooti - Jan 26, 2004 - 09:35 AM
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Also, I don't know why the elf teams are listed as "slow developing" teams. I'd say, with all AG4, you can get your linemen to two skills much faster than, say, humans. Quick passes to get from MVP 5 to Skill 6, interceptions on a 5+ if your oppo isn't paying attention, and the ever-present scoring threat.
Apedog - Jan 26, 2004 - 02:16 PM
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When playing Orcs I always find Lizardmen the toughest opponent.
They have more strong players than the Orcs do and move faster. Trying to move a cage against them is very tough.
Zombie - Jan 26, 2004 - 02:56 PM
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pfooti wrote:
Earlier positional access (compared to other elf teams) means linemen won't necessarily get skilled up as much. By game 5, my elves managed to win 4-0, with only the MVP SPPs going to a lineman, the rest going to Catchers, Blitzers, and Passers.
That's not a weakness of the team, that's you playing it wrong. First of all, you should have started with more rerolls rather than more positional players. It's a better bet for long term. Second, even with the positional players present, you should still do everything in your power to score with the line-elves, just like you would with in any team.
Mestari - Jan 28, 2004 - 01:58 AM
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neoliminal wrote:
Mestari: It seems to me that Dwarves would have some advantage against Khemri with two players that included Dauntless. I don't really know because I've never played Dwarves against Khemri.
Dauntless against ST5 fails 10/36. If there's just one ST5 guy, the slayers can handle it, but if there are four, the game gets desperate. Using the slayers also means putting them right to the action, which prompts an immediate targetting from the mummies. The ST5/AV9/MB mummy simply has a lot better chance of taking out the ST3/AV8/Dauntless Slayer than the other way round. And if there are more of them, the outcome is pretty clear.
Tutenkharnage - Jan 28, 2004 - 06:27 AM
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If the Mummy doesn't have Block, the Slayer can do a good job mano-a-mano on the first block, even without re-rolls or assists.
* Mummy knocked down: 43%
* Mummy pushed back: 37%
* Slayer down: 21%
If the Mummy is pushed into an assist-free area, repeat those numbers.
With an assist, the Slayer's odds improve, but not significantly.
* Mummy knocked down: 47%
* Mummy pushed back: 42%
* Slayer down: 10%
What's notable here? The "Slayer down" percentage dropped. (Note that I'm rounding to the nearest percent; accordingly, the numbers don't add up to 100.)
With two assists, the Slayer gets rolling:
* Mummy knocked down: 54%
* Mummy pushed back: 39%
* Slayer down: 7%
If the Mummy has Block, the Slayer is probably in trouble.
Unfortunately for the Dwarf coach, he doesn't have a Slayer and two assists for every Mummy, which is why the situation is usually desperate against Khemri. Against old Undead, Slayers had it good, I think; against a ST4 quartet such as Orcs or Chaos, they're also good; but against Khemri, I think it wise to slaughter some Skeletons first.
-Chet
Tojurub - Jan 28, 2004 - 11:59 AM
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As a dwarf playing coach I hate any team, which has more than 2 ST4+ playining opponents. The troll slayers (only 2 available) can only use their dauntless skill during their turn...As soon as the other team hits you first the slayers go down and with AV8 they are easier to take out than Blitzers or LB's. If the dwarves face a team, which has only 2 or less ST4+ in it it really doesn't matter. So, if you ask me the nemesis of dwarf teams are:
Khemri, Lizardman, [edit] Chaos [/edit], Chaos Dwarfs ...sometimes Orcs (depends on roster).....and of course the wardancing and speedy woodelves
Zombie - Jan 28, 2004 - 02:06 PM
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Chaos also have 5 ST4+ players.
Tutenkharnage - Jan 28, 2004 - 03:01 PM
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I don't find the "nemesis" concept very useful, but I do wonder how "Chaos Dwarves" can be a statistical nemesis of the Dwarf team. Tojurub seems to be talking about raw scores, not fluff; on that count, the CD team doesn't meet his ST-based criteria.
-Chet
Zombie - Jan 28, 2004 - 04:46 PM
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It has more than 2 ST4+ players, which was his criterium. They've got 2 ST4 bull centaurs, and 1 ST5 troll or minotaur. Dwarves have nobody with ST4+.
But i agree, ST should not tip the scale in favor of chaos dwarves. MA might, but ST, no way.
Tutenkharnage - Jan 29, 2004 - 06:12 AM
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Oh, wait! Sorry, my mistake. I forgot that they get the BCs and can also hire a Big Guy. Duh! Forgot about that entirely. Probably interference from my own league's CD rules.
-Chet
Tojurub - Jan 29, 2004 - 07:56 AM
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The list I set up was just from what I have experienced....and I forgot about Chaos, yes they should be on my list as well.
It's not that my dwarves constantly lost against the mentioned teams, but I seem to have the biggest problems against theses teams unless I get extremely lucky in my rolls.
The reason why I say Chaos Dwarves is not purely based on the ST, you're absolutely right Zombie, but the higher ST helps the CD to tie up more players of the dwarfs, since the CD have "fast" players like the Bull Centaurs (2) and Hobgoblins (up to 12), which have all MA6.
Sygtrigger - Mar 01, 2004 - 05:35 PM
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I currently play three teams in my league, one of them being "INFECTIOUS GROOVES". I noticed there is nothing on the rotters! Truly i'm not alone out here, well maybe it has to do with the fact nobody wants to come near me 
This is what i've learned so far; slow progression means the first few skills chosen are very important. Don't expect to win too many games in your first 10. Until the majority of the team has one skill, keep it simple. Unless you have absolutely no choice, do not remove the beast of nurgle's little friend you keep by his side. Last but not least, no passing, the odd hand off, just pick up the ball and go!
Strengths: str4/foul appearance combo means your rotters will go down less often even against hitting teams. Beastmen are all blitzers!!! Everyone else has regenerate.
Weaknesses:Very slow progression in the begining. No ball handling skills of any kind.
The challenge is very rewarding until i remember i'm rotting!
Papa Nurgle.
comments, post them!
majortusk - Mar 01, 2004 - 06:56 PM
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great list, it will definately help with some of our league players decide on what team they might want
Da_Scum - Mar 04, 2004 - 02:38 PM
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Much as I chuckle a the Goblins being the lap-dogs of every team out there, they can put up a resounding fight in good hands. 
On any given Thursday they can take out anyone, though the team I hate most being against is Chaos Dwarves. Unlike straight dwarves, which I can deal with, the Chaos team packs a few more options meaning I'm more aiming for a draw than a win.
However, seeing as a Goblin team ends up in the agility catagory a lot, a developed team 
can end up with so much Diving Tackle and Sidestep that any agility team really doesn't want to play them. This mean that the Elves and Skaven team end up not likely a match against the Goblins. (And those Two big Guys ought to be piling up THEIR bodies for a change.) 
kjonesin - Mar 05, 2004 - 10:59 AM
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If we're still talking nemeses, I can speak for my own Chaos Dwarves that the team I hate playing more than anything is Dwarves. You can't kill them, and outrunning them with only MA6 is a chore. The only other team I fear is Wood Elves, because Wardancers steal the ball much too easily.
Also - I've found that beating Undead is very easy with Dwarves or Chaos Dwarves (being a former undead coach doesn't hurt either). The skeletons and zombies are quickly ground down, mummies can be contained easily, Ghouls are tackled into pulp, and wights just plain suck for a 90k player.
So, nemeses:
C. Dwarves - Dwarves/Wood Elves
Undead - Dwarves/C. Dwarves
ve6neo - Mar 13, 2004 - 05:16 PM
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As a halfling coach, (yes I'm willing to admit it), I'd like for the All to be removed from the Goblin list - they can certainly trounce the Halflings. The extra MA and AV makes them quicker and more durable.
Also - add their only strength - two ST6 Treemen - with no on-feild penalty (save the 2MA)
JeffB - Mar 17, 2004 - 08:20 PM
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I'd probably put Lizards as the nemesis for Skaven. The way to beat them is to tie up the Sauruses, which is suicide with line rats. Meanwhile, the Skinks take away the speed advantage rats usually have.
Doubleskulls - Mar 18, 2004 - 02:30 AM
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In my experience Lizards are excellent against flair teams generally. They have the strength to establish a numerical superiority and because the team is so fast there is no where to hide from swarming skinks.
kjonesin - Mar 23, 2004 - 12:35 PM
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to be perfectly honest, i think lizardmen are horribly broken. on paper, at least. the only reason i'm not screaming at someone about it is that skinks have no general skill access.
Apedog - Mar 24, 2004 - 05:31 AM
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Lizards are one of the teams I find it hardest to play against with any team, but I have about a 50% Win ratio against them so I don't consider them broken.
Sauruses are tough but a bashy team with a bit of tackle can really put the hurt on the skinks.
crazylegs - Mar 24, 2004 - 11:02 AM
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Lizardmen:
Strengths:
- possible 7 Str4+ players
- Mv8 Ball handlers
Weaknesses:
- Virtually no passing game
- Only Ballhandlers Str2 Ag3
- The most AG1 players of any roster
- Lineman very difficult to advance
Lizardmen look tough when you see all that speed and strength, but they really aren't. They have ballhandling issues early, their lineman advance slower than pretty much any lineman (even Golems & Black Orcs), so the team even a higher TRs has unskilled linemen, and their ballhandlers are extremely breakable... so I don't see how you can say they are overpowered, the general opinion in the league I play in is that they are one of the weaker teams, especially after 10+ games.
hitomikitage - Mar 24, 2004 - 11:59 AM
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I noticed that you had no Necro team strengths or weaknesses, and having played Necro for a bit, have seen some obvious inclusions into each category.
Strengths: The position players are very, very good on a Necro team. Wights and Ghouls are tried and true members of the game, and work well in conjunction with the Werewolf (there-wolf) in moving the ball down the field in a sort of loose cage formed by your more mobile guys. The Flesh Golems are pretty tight, as they have stand firm, strength 4 and thick skull, they are tough to get off of the field and hold up most of the movement on the line while on the defense. Zombies are cheap, regenerate, and if you kill a normal sized player, you get one for free. Enough said.
Weaknesses: Teams with alot of high strength guys and fast movement. Lizardmen whoop the Necro team pretty hard. Speed on the Skinks and average movement on the strength 4 Sauruses is tough to combat and should definetely be a nemesis team. Mobile teams are tough as the necro team has only 6 mobile players (with a full compliment of wights, ghouls, and werewolves) that can keep up, otherwise they are limited to the speed 4 guys, who can't catch anyone and can't dodge to save thier unlives.
Howard Hooven
Doubleskulls - Mar 25, 2004 - 03:42 AM
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kjonesin wrote:
i think lizardmen are horribly broken. on paper, at least.
I think that's the point - in reality you'll find them tough early on and generally getting weaker as other teams get the capability to take out the skinks.
kjonesin - Apr 13, 2004 - 11:21 AM
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I completely agree that theres a huge difference between paper and practice. but doesn't the sight of both st4 and ma8 on the same roster in such abundance scare anyone else?
Zombie - Apr 13, 2004 - 03:04 PM
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It doesn't scare anyone who's seen them in action in a league.
Doubleskulls - Apr 14, 2004 - 02:36 AM
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kjonesin wrote:
I completely agree that theres a huge difference between paper and practice. but doesn't the sight of both st4 and ma8 on the same roster in such abundance scare anyone else?
Nope. Lizards aren't that good a team in practice because their ball handlers are soft and squishy and their blockers are too easy to tie down.
Apedog - Apr 19, 2004 - 06:49 AM
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And in the long term there will be more players with Tackle/Mighty Blow in the league, Skinks will go squish even more easily.
kjonesin - May 02, 2004 - 09:05 PM
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mmmm... maybe i'm too hard on the poor lizards.
Speaking of the new Necro team - I want to like them, but they're just not as good as the classic Undead team, and I don't see them as very strong in a tournament setup.
For nemeses I'd probably say the infamous Dwarves/Chaos Dwarves/Orcs triad... three teams that can potentially dominate the Necros up front. The necros gain a bit of scoring talent on the classic undead, but lose a lot of weight, and I see strength teams doing well against them.
Ryan - Jun 20, 2005 - 11:50 PM
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I would like to point out the other Halfling Strength
There head Coach
with the ability to remove your oppoents re-rolls this can cripple teams like Elves (All) and other teams that relie on those presous team re-rolls to make up for there lack of Skill ones
Doubleskulls - Jun 21, 2005 - 02:53 AM
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Funnily enough HE and Woodies do well against 'flings in tournaments but DE & Elves do badly (they are the best opponent).
Funnily enough 'zons do really badly too - which surprises me since I would have thought the often have plenty of RRs.
steelydan187 - Dec 06, 2005 - 10:08 PM
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Kehmri:
Strengths: Can have 4 Mummies on roster. All players regenerate. Cheap lineman.
Weakness: AG 2 for all skeletons. Low MA and AG for mummies.
Nemeses: Dwarves (troll slayers and block...Ouch)
TuernRedvenom - Dec 07, 2005 - 12:00 PM
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steelydan187 wrote:
Kehmri:
Nemeses: Dwarves (troll slayers and block...Ouch)
I don't agree, for me arch nemesises would be skaven and wood elves because they can capitalise on any mistakes/bad luck (like not picking up the ball) you have. Dwarves are even pretty easy because they have a hard time getting away so they'll get hit and hit and hit and then hit some more and eventually they will break too.
Ryan - Dec 14, 2005 - 01:18 AM
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You forgot the biggest advantage that Ogre's Halflings & Goblins have over most other teams
They start any season with the ability to have a 1 turn TD
Grumbledook - Aug 07, 2006 - 02:21 PM
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no Vamps huh
Strengths:
Vampires (ST4 AG4 combo, regenerate, great cage breakers (HGaze)) cheap linemen
Weaknesses:
Vamps are expensive, as are rerolls. Reliant on AV7 players to keep team moving. Can decimate own team.
Lycos - Aug 11, 2006 - 04:43 PM
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Well seeing as you woke up this thread Jon, I will pitch in with my Halfling experience from Thrudbowl where I won 4 out of 6 games.
I had a set tactic and particualrly against the Dwarves it worked wonders. And in agreement with Doubleskulls quote above, also against zons.
Tactic: Against low movement and low AG teams, I threw a fling a short distance over the LOS and hoped to scatter and land ok. Then, he moves directly behind the ball carrier at the back, often a Dwarf runner or Zon thrower, Chaos Bman, Norse thrower etc. (click on the stats you can see who I played).
This tactic scared the hell out of most I played because it was directly using up either a blitz to push away the fling or dragging the whole drive backwards to get safe. (Given T2 I was doing the same thing).
Before you know it, there are flings over your backfield and whilst thats hardly the mother of all threats, it is annoying and I manged to slow drives down to keep clean sheets or stop them scoring more than one.
Grumbledook - Aug 11, 2006 - 05:15 PM
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specially nasty if you give them sidestep i would assume
Lycos - Aug 12, 2006 - 05:08 PM
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only four of them.....
twist - Aug 14, 2006 - 12:02 AM
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crazylegs wrote:
Lizardmen:
Lizardmen look tough when you see all that speed and strength, but they really aren't. They have ballhandling issues early, their lineman advance slower than pretty much any lineman (even Golems & Black Orcs), so the team even a higher TRs has unskilled linemen, and their ballhandlers are extremely breakable... so I don't see how you can say they are overpowered, the general opinion in the league I play in is that they are one of the weaker teams, especially after 10+ games.
I disagree entirely. I've kicked butt with them both in leagues and tourneys. I like being able to dodge and weave with skinks as well as bash with the saurii.
Ballhandling is average. Same as everyone else, unless you don't protect your skinks. Throwing is a problem though. Personally, I like the running game.
In leagues, a Saurus doesn't progress that slowly. Touchbacks are great, give the ball to a Saurus! Even hand it off to one, if the game isn't on the line. They can certainly move for a bashy type...
You just have to play them right. Try and keep Saurii as a brick wall between your opponent's players and your skinks. Move a skink in as an assist on a hit, but make sure that the pushback (at least) frees him up again.
At the moment, my favourite team. My favourite opponent for league play would be Skaven... 
Doubleskulls - Aug 14, 2006 - 08:29 PM
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A really effective lizard tactic (against teams without Frenzy at least) is a sideline cage keeping all the skinks inside the shield of Saurus & Krox. Then they don't get blitzed every turn.
Glorian_Underhill - Aug 15, 2006 - 12:54 AM
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And with the new Bad Kick rules in LRB 5.0 the touchback to the saurus might also find its end.
And the sideline cage is quite effective for the lizardz cause you only need 3 paces to be in the opposite side to score, or 5 to score without gfis.
Besides skinks are like flings with doubel the speed. If they want they can get everywhere.
Buggrit - Sep 01, 2006 - 07:00 AM
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Hell if you're going to give the ball to anybody surely the Kroxigor would be a better choice? Thanks for that though, it's given me some new ideas for my Orc team. As the Troll never really gets to do much besides clobber people most of the time because of his AG 1... Perhaps next time I get a touchback I'll give the ball to him, he rarely gets knocked down unless the opposition has a big guy directly opposite him, or gangs up with 3 or 4 players.... So maybe giving him the ball would be a neat change on the regular Cage play.
tenwit - Sep 24, 2007 - 11:47 PM
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Buggrit wrote:
Hell if you're going to give the ball to anybody surely the Kroxigor would be a better choice?
If you've got 4+ turns left in the half, yes, krox rules for defending the ball. And if you've got the lead already, then definitely. But if you've only got 3- turns and need to score, then bonehead will be rolled and you'll have thrown the game away.
That happened to my human team. I was sooo tempted to fire Smush the ogre after that. Or melt him. Grrrr.
Tripleskull - Mar 05, 2009 - 05:30 AM
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I have played quite a bit with lizardmen - and won alot with several different lizardman teams. I havent played a single team for long enough for evaluating the long league potensial, but it does seem that tv explodes after 8-10 games, and the sauri are still imobile turnover liabilities. Still I believe it is one of the strongest teams out there... But they have one major disadvantege that the other top teams doesnt have (WEs, orcs, undead and Dwarf in my book). They have a real nemisis, witch I cant understand havent bin mentioned in this tread. They absolutely cant play WEs. With ST 2 and no general skills on the skinks they have no way to protect the ball from wardancers. In a league it can be fixed with lucky dice on skill rolls, and 1-2 double rolls in a turney help a little, but they are still major undedog against WEs - or any elfs with block, leap, and ad tackle, frenzy or stripball to make it even worse.
Doubleskulls - Mar 05, 2009 - 07:54 PM
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Lizzies are pretty bad against any dodge heavy team since they generally lack much tackle.
War dancers mean that doubles on skinks have to be looking for sure hands and/or block.
Guard is helpful too - if you've enough you can probably ensure 1 or 2 dice against hitting skinks in the cage.
Lizzies best offence is probably to try and score very quickly - so that the war dancers don't get more than one shot at the cage.