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House Rules - OFAB alternative, comments please.
Mordredd - Nov 29, 2004 - 09:53 AM
Post subject: OFAB alternative, comments please.
I've been thinking about another alternative recently (because I really dislike the whole vampire-as-crack-whore thing going on with OFAB as it is now).
Basically they would treat every player (except other Vampires and vampire Thralls) as having foul appearance. This would represent the opposition doing things like bathing in garlic, getting their armour blessed, getting their spikes silver plated or made of wood, wearing a ton of holy symbols and drinking lots of holy water. This would stack like foul appearance, and indeed stack with foul appearance. (Perhaps even forcing a Vampire who wants to block a foul appearance player to roll 2+ twice?)
Vampires would not have stab with this, and the star player Lord types available to the teams would ignore it (he's too powerful).
Perhaps the team shouldn't have access to an apothecary either.
I was thinking of putting this to my (vault) league to try out but would appreciate any feedback from here. So any comments?
(I also posted this on BB.com)
Spazzfist - Nov 29, 2004 - 10:31 AM
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I too am not crazy about the overwhelming OFAB rules. I like your analogy of the crack whore, as it makes them look that desperate.
I like the team, love the models, but this whole OFAB rules is a HUGE downside.
I thought that maybe it could be like a bonehead roll, in that if they roll the 1, then they must roll again, a second 1 and then they are OFAB. Otherwise they are trying to resist the urge and are for all purposes, "bonehead".
Alternatively, the dice could be rolled just once. The "1" would indicate a bloodlust. As such the vampire eiether loses a turn in trying to control it, or if he is really needed, can end his movement next to a thrall for the appropriate OFAB snack.
Grumbledook - Nov 29, 2004 - 10:40 AM
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i love the current OFAB its the best rule in the game and its what makes the team fun to play
this would also make the team impossible to use for passing plays and cut a lot of spp out from not being able to make blocks
I think it would remove the fun that a lot of people have with the OFAB as it is and make the team even more frustrating to play
Spazzfist - Nov 29, 2004 - 10:47 AM
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Grumbledook wrote:
i love the current OFAB its the best rule in the game and its what makes the team fun to play
Score one for the massochists! 
Graf_Arnhelm - Nov 29, 2004 - 10:59 AM
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2-0 for the masochists, check the Rules section 
Don't play Vamps if you want the rules to be easy on you.
Darkson - Nov 29, 2004 - 11:42 AM
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Add another one. I really enjoy playing the Vamps, and imo the OFAB is what makes the team worth playing, stops it being samey.
Spazzfist - Nov 29, 2004 - 11:44 AM
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Suddenly all these vampire coaches coming out of the closet! Any of you care to help me out by giving some tips on how to play the team? Check out the thread in the "Strategies and Tactics" section.
Graf_Arnhelm - Nov 29, 2004 - 11:55 AM
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What was the point in coming out when we weren't even "in" (as in "not official")?
Hope my bit of advice in the "Strategies" can help a bit, but don't expect much from a masochist
Darkson - Nov 29, 2004 - 11:56 AM
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Pro frst, unless you roll a double or Stat. try as hard as you can to score and Cas with the Thralls, you need them to skill up, else your Vamps will suck (sorry!) up all the SPP's.
And if you get a handicap roll, pray for Ironman. A thrall that can't be hurt? Time to bring out all the Vamps then!
GalakStarscraper - Nov 29, 2004 - 11:56 AM
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Spazzfist wrote:
Suddenly all these vampire coaches coming out of the closet! Any of you care to help me out by giving some tips on how to play the team? Check out the thread in the "Strategies and Tactics" section.
Add one more to the category of thinking this is the best set of Vampire rules ever.
Galak
Spazzfist - Nov 29, 2004 - 01:13 PM
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Well maybe this new team is an acquired taste! (No pun intended)!
the team is very new to me and with the low AV the thralls just seem to getting sandwiched horribly! (I am going to hate to se what happens when I play a bashy team!)
To be honest, I am still very new to the team, so I will not say any more until I have more experience under my belt.
Spazz(fang?)
or
Mordredd - Nov 30, 2004 - 07:58 AM
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Well thanks everyone for voting for your favourite Vampire rules, but that is not what I was asking for. I didn't want a critique on whether this idea was any good as a replacement for the official rules; I wanted a critique on whether this would overpower the team when used as a house rule. You know, just in my own league.
I have long wanted a Vampire team with actual Vampires in it. You know the stuff of horror films. To me OFAB gives them the character of something from the worst excesses of slapstick comedy. They're blood drinking clowns with the sinister part of the blood drinking getting totally swamped by the clownishness. Sorry but I absolutely will not use the official team.
What I am trying to do is get myself an alternative rules set for use in my home league that is reasonable, even if it's not in your estimation the best going. The alternative is that I use my rather large number of converted Vampires as coaching staff/star players.
Spazzfist - Nov 30, 2004 - 08:20 AM
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Sorry to get it so off topic!
Looking again at the rules that you propose, it is nice for the fluff aspect, but I would try playtresting it a few times before committing yourself to those rules. To my mind, with every player on the opposition having FA, it may seriously hurt the vamps chance of doing anything. I think it sounds a bit extreme (from what I read).
Why would you not want them to access an apothecary? To my mind the vampires would want to ensure that their "pets" are taken care of and availablet to them.
Just my two cents.
Spazz
Mordredd - Nov 30, 2004 - 08:58 AM
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That's ok Spazz, you did ask for help and tactics in the other thread.
And yes it may have too much effect in a scrum, but in spread out play would it have enough? It certainly wouldn't stop the Vampires picking up the ball deep without interference and then running it through to score. It still stops blocks/blitzes on a 1 but doesn't then cause the injury-to-Thrall/turnover which is harsher (obviously), and has no effect on just moving. That's why I'm not sure it does enough. This is why I speculated that no apothecary might be a good idea. Plus it would also bring the team in line with the Undead and Necromantic team in having non-regenerate players that can't be saved by other means.
And to my mind the Vampires wouldn't care about the "pets". They could get horribly squished for all they care just as long as they come out of the game looking good. (In fact I can really see a Vampire pushing a hapless Thrall in front of a raging wild animal to save himself from harm.)
Spazzfist - Nov 30, 2004 - 10:00 AM
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Well what if the vampires don't have an apothecary on the team, but the vamps also don't have regenerate (per se). Any injury suffered by the vampires can be passed onto a thrall at the beginning of the next drive. This still has them eating their "pets" but is not as harsh as the OFAB.
If you go the FA route, then I would suggest that you do not make it cumulative. Otherwise they will be pretty usless in a scrum.
Spazz
Zombie - Nov 30, 2004 - 09:27 PM
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I don't think it's harsh enough, but then again i don't think the official rule is harsh enough either.
Mordredd - Dec 01, 2004 - 07:30 AM
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Spazz, I like the idea of the Vampires using the Thralls to regenerate. I'll have to give that some thought.
Zombie, what would you suggest as an alternative then?
Spazzfist - Dec 01, 2004 - 08:20 AM
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Maybe in order to have a chance to regenerate (4+) the vampire will have to commit one thrall to being badly hurt (or even an injury roll).
Mordredd - Dec 01, 2004 - 09:48 AM
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I was thinking that you could simply make a Sigurds roll (or D68 SI roll in the Vault) for a healthy Thrall in return for the Vampire regenerating. So the Thrall would have to be not KO+ in order to be used as an apothecary. It would be rolled after the drive has ended like regenerate and you would have to choose whether or not to regenerate the Vampire at the first opportunity. If you choose not to then he suffers the injury as though he failed his regenerate roll.
I think that would be harsh enough as it would lose you a Thrall for the next game on 1/6 regenerates and lose you one permanently on another 1/6 regenerates. That could be quite expensive, even if you freeboot a sacrificial Thrall at 20k per match. It would also limit you to a number of regenerates equal to the number of Thralls on the team. Meaning you could still take down a Vampire team by taking down the Thralls.
Darkson - Dec 01, 2004 - 02:20 PM
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Just out of interest though, why does it have to be a healthy thrall? Why wouldn't they just suck on a thrall already BH/SI'd?
Grumbledook - Dec 01, 2004 - 02:40 PM
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regenerate is rolled right away iirc
Spazzfist - Dec 01, 2004 - 03:11 PM
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Darkson wrote:
Just out of interest though, why does it have to be a healthy thrall? Why wouldn't they just suck on a thrall already BH/SI'd?
Balance wise - To make the regeneration more of a tough choice
Fluff wise- maybe they've lost too much blood!
KarlLagerbottom - Dec 01, 2004 - 03:28 PM
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@Grumbledook - I think that the Regenerate roll takes place before the next kick-off. I know that Fumbbl does it automatically, but there is a subtle difference in the strict interpretation of the rules. (Example- If a player with regenerate is turned into a toad, and is killed. The toad does not have regenerate and the player would be dead...however, since the toaded player turns back into the normal player at the end of the drive...then he/she has regenerate ability back before the Kick Off and gets a chance at the roll. This is very important for Nurgle teams since they have no Apoth access and could very easily have their team ruined by a freebooted wizard in leagues.)
@Spazz- I think that any Thrall is hard enough...as long as they are not dead they are still a blood supply. 
After all you are proposing only a 1 in 6 chance of success if I am reading the proposed rule correctly. Balance-wise this is going too far IMHO if you limit it to healthy Thralls...if you fail the roll and injure the healthy Thrall things will get out of hand awfully fast.
-Rob
Then again...what do I know...
Zombie - Dec 01, 2004 - 05:01 PM
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Mordredd wrote:
Zombie, what would you suggest as an alternative then?
I don't know, to tell you the truth. I think vampires will probably never be balanced. You have to give them at least MA6, at least ST4, at least AG4 and at least AV8. Then you're f*cked.
I would drop the vampire team altogether from the official team list. At the very least, give them one more year of playtest. We all know that the team we have now won't be the official team one year from now anyway.
Spazzfist - Dec 01, 2004 - 06:18 PM
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@Lagerbottom - What I was proposing was that by biting a thrall it would provide the vampire their normal chance to regenerate (i.e. a 4+ roll on a d6).
@Darkson - I suppose you could move the thralls one column - a healthy one will be k.o'd, a k.o'd one will be badly hurt and a badly hurt one might just make a casualty roll (1-3 BH, 4-5 SI, 6 Dead).
Graf_Arnhelm - Dec 02, 2004 - 01:03 AM
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The idea of sacrificing Thralls to regenerate the Vamp seems fun enough and harsh enough to make the team hard to play.
But the problem is that it adds a rule to an already existing rule: Regenerate.
You'd have a "general" Regenerate, and the "Vampire" Regenerate. Where do we go from here? Should Blockers have an own Block action, differing slighlty from the regular Block? Should Dodgers who start with this skill hav another rule than those who learn it later in the game?
You could always find a reason, fluff- or rules-wise, to nerf with existing general rules to "balance" a team, but I think you'll agree that's not the best way.
Changing the way Regenerate works for Vamps would set a precedence, which is not really a good thing.
Spazzfist - Dec 02, 2004 - 06:12 AM
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I can see where you are going with that, but you have to consider also that the vampire team is the only one that eats their players on a regular basis (trolls sometimes may eat their team mate when about to throw them).
Without some kind of special handicap, the vampire team is too good. Currently the vampire's handicap is the OFAB rules. What I am suggesting is an alternative which fits the same idea (fluff and otherwise) and makes the team a little more playable (IMHO) without making them too powerful.
Teams have been changed slightly to modify one that is too powerful, so the precedence has already been set. In this case the team is replacing one existing unique rule with another. But if change comes in the name of balance then as far as I'm concerned, it's a good thing!
Spazz
GalakStarscraper - Dec 02, 2004 - 06:38 AM
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Zombie wrote:
We all know that the team we have now won't be the official team one year from now anyway.
Zombie ... care to place a wager on this one???
At most you might see a clarification to "voluntary movement" for Hypnotic Gaze and "his Move Action" in HGaze as well ... maybe adding pass to the list of things you cannot do while HGazed.
So ignore these 3 changes to HGaze ... care to wager on this one. The Vampire team received a lot of playtesting. I'm pretty confident that this is one bet I'll win with no difficulty whatsoever.
Galak
Mordredd - Dec 02, 2004 - 06:59 AM
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@ Graf
I don't think there would be any precedent of that nature set. It wouldn't be having 2 versions of regenerate; it would be a new racial characteristic entirely separate from regenerate.
@ Darkson
Spazz was talking about making it an injury on a Thrall for a 4+ chance to regenerate. However a 4+ roll seems a fairly poor chance of success for the sacrifice of a player so I was thinking it should be a straight swap, i.e. a serious/Sigurds injury roll on a Thrall for an automatic regenerate. So I was thinking it would have to be a healthy Thrall to balance that. Or maybe a 2+ roll to get the Vampire back and allow the use of KO'd players too? I certainly think that the coach should be sacrificing something to get their Vampire back so a Thrall from the dead and injured box is right out.
Fluff wise it would be the team's coach sweeping up the Vampire dust and then using the life blood of a Thrall to resurrect him. Using fresh blood to resurrect a Vampire in this way is such a common Horror theme, especially in Hammer Horror films, that it would be nice to work it in to the team.
@ Grumbledook
Regenerate is now rolled immediately, like the apothecary, but before this year's rules review it was meant to be rolled at the end of the drive. Most people, myself included, rolled immediately before the review as well, just to avoid confusing which players had rolled before (and failed) and which ones had yet to try.
Zombie - Dec 02, 2004 - 05:31 PM
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GalakStarscraper wrote:
Zombie wrote:
We all know that the team we have now won't be the official team one year from now anyway.
Zombie ... care to place a wager on this one???
Sure, if you're into giving away stuff for free! What's up for grabs?
GalakStarscraper - Dec 03, 2004 - 07:56 AM
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Zombie wrote:
GalakStarscraper wrote:
Zombie wrote:
We all know that the team we have now won't be the official team one year from now anyway.
Zombie ... care to place a wager on this one???
Sure, if you're into giving away stuff for free! What's up for grabs?
You name the wager ... I've got access to most things ... but don't know what you would want. I'll tell you this Zombie ... its a sucker bet. IMO. I really don't want to take whatever you are willing to put up.
Why am I sure that this is a sucker bet. My league helped with the playtesting ... a LOT of leagues have chimed in with playtesting results. FUMBBL has been using these rules for Vampires and they are not showing the long term problems that you suggest. I took the 10 most played Vampire teams from FUMBBL and this is the result:
Average TR: 201
Average games played: 32.7
Ave. TR growth per a game: 3.1
Ave Win/Tie/Loss record: 13.1/6.9/12.7
In other words ... we really have a LOT of playtest data Zombie that this team is fine. Especially to me when you look at that 3.1 ave TR growth ... that not a high number at all. But .....
If you really are convinced that the BBRC will change the team rules in the 2005 Rules Review other than the 3 possible tweaks to Hypnotic Gaze that I mentioned ... how about this.
For the Spike tournament next year ... assuming that there will be a T-shirt included with the event. If I lose and the Vampire team is changed in anyway other than the above noted HGaze changes, I'll pay double for the T-shirt. If I win, you hand over the T-shirt for free.
Tom
Hoshi_Komi - Dec 03, 2004 - 08:14 AM
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I think the injurey rule to a thrall would work for regenerate if it was a CAS roll. ie straight to CAS roll for the regen. otherwise it's just crap. and make it mandatory too....vamp doesn't get a choice not to use Regen on a BH
Mordredd - Dec 03, 2004 - 08:33 AM
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For me it would be a CAS roll, but I'm a little reluctant to make it mandatory. It doesn't feel right that a Vampire Lord wouldn't have a say in whether he lets one of his Thralls get sacrificed just to keep one of his minions going. Do you really think that it is necessary?
Spazzfist - Dec 03, 2004 - 08:37 AM
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Who's to say that it must happen? Sure, is the coach does not want to give the vamp a chance to regenerate, then why should he?
Hoshi_Komi - Dec 03, 2004 - 09:53 AM
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because then it's only affecting 1 in 3 cas.....they wouldn't regen miss next games or BH...just stat gimps or Deaths. figure an average of 2 cas taken a game....one MIGHT be on a vamp....so it only comes up once in 3 games? totally worthless rule.
Also these are crazy ass vamps....they don't control themselves.
Mordredd - Dec 03, 2004 - 10:33 AM
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Well I think that really depends on how badly the coach wants his Vampire on the field. I think there are enough situations where I would regenerate a badly hurt Vampire. Certainly if I only had a few I'd be quite likely to feel I needed the Vampire more than the Thrall.
Hoshi_Komi - Dec 03, 2004 - 02:48 PM
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still a worthless rule that comes up maybe 1 in 2 games vice the possible 1 in 2 turns now.
Zombie - Dec 03, 2004 - 04:50 PM
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GalakStarscraper wrote:
For the Spike tournament next year ... assuming that there will be a T-shirt included with the event. If I lose and the Vampire team is changed in anyway other than the above noted HGaze changes, I'll pay double for the T-shirt. If I win, you hand over the T-shirt for free.
Sure. Double what you paid this year, or nothing at all. The bet is on!
Zombie - Dec 03, 2004 - 04:53 PM
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Actually, i just remembered i probably won't go to the Spike! next year. Anything else you wanna bet?
GalakStarscraper - Dec 04, 2004 - 07:52 PM
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Zombie wrote:
Actually, i just remembered i probably won't go to the Spike! next year. Anything else you wanna bet?
$30 of my money paypal'd to you if you win.
You don't say a negative comment about the Vampire team for one year in any online forum if I win (UNLESS it involves honestly trying to help someone with strategy with the team and you are describing how to overcome a weakness of the team). If I can catch a single truely negative comment about the team. I post it and if the forum you posted it on agrees that it breaks the bet then you owe me $20.
That would work for me.
Galak
Spazzfist - Dec 04, 2004 - 08:03 PM
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Okay boys, now that you have your bet sorted out.....
I tried the vampire team again tonight this time trying them with a 2 vampire configuration and they worked MUCH better!
I guess part of it was just my being lucky with the OFAB rolls, but I found that the vampires working to support the efforts of the thralls which worked very nicely. Moving in to hypnotize the key players and then getting thralls through the holes created worked like a charm.
The vamps didn't get their hands too dirty unless their strength was really needed or a passing play was required.
Thanks all for your advice!
Spazz
Zombie - Dec 04, 2004 - 10:25 PM
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Seems awfully unfair to you. I get $30 if i win, and you might get $20 if you do. Sounds like a no-win situation for you... unless you really think i'm incapable of keeping my mouth shut. And even then, why not the same sum?
You are a BBRC member, and thus one of the 7 people casting their vote a year from now when it must be decided whether the team changes, so i could see how a little uneven would be fair.
Is that Canadian or American dollars? Doesn't matter; the way things are going, in a year's time, they'll be worth the same anyway!
Either way, i'm in.
GalakStarscraper - Dec 05, 2004 - 08:27 AM
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Zombie wrote:
You are a BBRC member, and thus one of the 7 people casting their vote a year from now when it must be decided whether the team changes, so i could see how a little uneven would be fair.
I told you Zombie ... its a sucker bet and I really don't want to take anything from you. However, I would like to hear you quit saying how broken the team is ... so for me this is a fair bet.
Matter closed ... see ya next review.
Galak
Mordredd - Dec 06, 2004 - 07:11 AM
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gken1 wrote:
still a worthless rule that comes up maybe 1 in 2 games vice the possible 1 in 2 turns now.
Huh? How does the team suffer a casualty every 2 turns on the Vampires under the current official rules?
Oh, hang on. You do realise that we are only talking about replacing the regenerate skill with a fluffier version in this latter part of the thread. It wasn't being discussed as a stand alone replacement for OFAB.
Hoshi_Komi - Dec 06, 2004 - 07:27 AM
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sorry must've missed the conversion from OFAB to being replaced by just regen.
I thought the point was to replace OFAB with the "killer regen"
Mordredd - Dec 06, 2004 - 09:12 AM
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Initially I was looking for feedback on whether a foul appearance type negatrait would be enough of a replacement for OFAB (in my own league as a house rule). Spazz mentioned the idea of the Vampires using Thralls to regenerate and we went off on a tangent discussing how that could be made to work. Though it could be part of a package that replaces OFAB in my house rules I never meant for it to be a stand alone replacement.
At the moment I'm thinking of having three things in this package.
1) "Killer Regen"
2) Roll 2+ to block or foul as though player had foul appearance, thanks to those holy symbols.
3) Bloodthirst roll on actions that don't have a block or foul in them. On a 1 may not move. On a further 1 suffers usual OFAB effect.