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NAF World Cup - Announcing the NAF World Cup!

Deathwing - Feb 13, 2006 - 12:08 PM
Post subject: Announcing the NAF World Cup!

Following on from the success of the Eurobowl and the interest shown in the forthcoming North American team event, the NAF are pleased to announce the inaugural NAF World Cup. Most of the details are yet to be finalised, but the projected date and host country are October of 2007 in the UK. This will be a national team event (with a secondary tournament held alongside for those who wish to attend but may not be in their national team). More details to follow over the coming months as we move things forward.

Brian St. James (Cyberhare) and David Candlish (Indigo) have been working hard behind the scenes laying the groundwork for this event, they are the guys who will continue to head up this project and see it through. I'd like to thank them both for their efforts so far, and I'm sure that with the support of the staff and the membership this exciting prospect will be a huge success!

CyberHare - Feb 13, 2006 - 03:51 PM
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Thanks Woody.

Yes ladies and gents it's true. In October of 2007 the NAF will hold the first NAF World Cup event and it's going to be huge. Over the coming weeks and months we'll be releasing details and filling you all in on the specifics of the event as they become confirmed but here's what I can tell you all for certain right here and now. Mark off your calendars and save up those pennies because if you miss this one you'll have to wait until 2011 to experience an event like this again!

The event will be held over a 4 day period. The first day will be a day of seminars, orientation, one off games, painting competitions, meeting old friends & making new ones. The next three days will see some of the best blood bowl that the world has ever seen. The UK, the birthplace of Blood Bowl, has been chosen as the host nation for these inaugural games. For three days in March teams from across the globe will descend on the UK to decide who will hold the national title of NAF World Cup Champions for the next 4 years. Heaven help us if it's Spain because we'll never hear the end of it Wink

The tournament itself will consist of 2 parts or rather 2 events running at the same time. The central event will be the World Cup and will consist of 9 games, 3 games per day. Three days and nights of Blood Bowl mayhem will mean this event will be as much about stamina and the ability to hold ones ale as it is about skill on the pitch. Blowing chunks on your opponents team will have to be some kind of red card penalty Smile

The second part of the tournament will be an open tournament event. Coaches will be able to arrange one off games against opponents of their choosing using virtually any set of rules agreed upon by both coaches. You both want to smash it up with TR300 rosters? Go for it. Want to try a round of Death Bowl. Bring your own board! 7's or StreetBall, again bring your own board. This will be the first NAF sanctioned open gaming event and all games will count towards your NAF ranking!

At the center of this Blood Bowl mayhem for the next year will be the official world cup web site www.nafworldcup.com. No it's not completed at the moment. You can visit it but it's still under construction. It's hoped the site will be completed in the near future. The plan is to test the site by running it through the North American Team event to work out the bugs before opening it up full steam for the World Cup. To that end if anyone is interested in helping out with the web site we're looking for people who can program in PHP and people to do the graphics. If you are interested in helping out PM me here and we'll put you to work. The pay stinks and the hours are long but the fringe benefits are... well ok there are no fringe benefits either but we'll appreciate the help Smile

As for the national teams and how they will be formed that is still as yet to be 100% determined. When that information becomes available your local NTO will start putting out the word as to what needs to be done in your area to get yourself on your national team. Don't start PMing them now because this is the first they're hearing about this as well.

That's about it for now. Questions - Comments -Discussion.... all are welcomed.

Paul - Feb 13, 2006 - 05:02 PM
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This sounds really interesting. I just put a buck in a jar to help pay my way. Nice website too, unfortuantly I have no time right now to help out.

Just to clear something up, the one-off tournament is for people not playing for their country? Or can anyone play in that (assumeing you've got time to play between rounds, in the evening etc)

Thanks

AnthonyTBBF - Feb 13, 2006 - 05:21 PM
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I think I might have to get back to the UK for this one.

Just one thing - it's not too close to the BB is it?

CyberHare - Feb 13, 2006 - 05:23 PM
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Anyone will be allowed to play in the one-off tournament but as you said, coaches on National Teams will need to find the time to play in the other event. Extending the One-Off tournament into the evening might be a good idea.

CyberHare - Feb 13, 2006 - 05:27 PM
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AnthonyTBBF wrote:

Just one thing - it's not too close to the BB is it?

The tournament schedule is so full now that no matter when we were to put this event it would step on someones toes. We picked a time that was best for the World Cup. They've been holding the BB in May. The World Cup will be in early March. Not a whole heck of a lot of time in between but not the week after either.

AnthonyTBBF - Feb 13, 2006 - 08:40 PM
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Ah that's not bad at all, I had it in my head that it was March.

Xtreme - Feb 13, 2006 - 08:45 PM
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Sounds like a good time and I have no reason not to make this my first trip across the pond.

I'll offer whatever help I'm qualified to do.

Turin - Feb 13, 2006 - 11:25 PM
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Sounds very interesting, I hope I'm gonna have the time to show up with our guys there, but we will see.

juergen - Feb 13, 2006 - 11:46 PM
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great idea!!!

Aramil - Feb 14, 2006 - 02:18 PM
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Italy is definately interested! Very Happy

I'm also personally interested in helping the organization... I'm not a PHP programmer but I'm not bad doing graphics (not drawings!).

Talking about the date, I think that helding it in the EuroBowl period will be good (obviously suspending the EuroBowl that year). Not everybody can afford many trips abroad, so having a World Cup AND the EuroBowl (or the North America Cup) in the same year may be a cost too high...

Tojurub - Feb 14, 2006 - 03:09 PM
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...and please have it in close vicinity to London....please not Nottingham Wink

CyberHare - Feb 14, 2006 - 05:01 PM
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Tojurub wrote:

...and please have it in close vicinity to London....please not Nottingham Wink

Actually at the moment the venue we're securing for the event is Warhammer World. That's not written in stone yet but it's a fairly done deal. Is there some issue with Nottingham I should know about?

juergen - Feb 15, 2006 - 12:27 AM
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well the warhammer world looks nice, but honestly I hate the tables and chairs there - it's very uncomfortable. Maybe they changed something in 2005 but in 2003 and 2004 it sucked. Sitting back to back to the other coaches and having to do a 1000 leaps just to get out.

I admit I weight more then the average person and thats maybe my private dilemma, but when I can't even get me feet under the table and have to sit sideways or play standing....that sucks.

More spaces between the tables, and some bricks under the table to get them higher (and no commedian) and at least I am perfect Smile

Roller - Feb 15, 2006 - 05:47 AM
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CyberHare wrote:

Great Idea!!!! Italy'll be there!!!! Laughing

In Italy the Fibb (Italian BB Federation) used an italian ranking, based on the outcome of the last year of official FIBB-tournament, to form the italian team for eurobowl05.
This gave no reason to dispute, and seemed to select the best 8 italian coach... and they won!!!
This year we choose to use the same system with small corrections for euro06 (only the best 5 tournament-outcome will give point for the ranking).
I hope the NAF will choose one system like this, based on the NAF tournament, to give to all NAF coaches the possibility to take part to the event with the rispective national team.
Idea

There are some small countries with few NAF coaches, i suggest to form one mixed team for theme.

March is very good and euro 06 and euro 07 are 6 months separated from the NAF World Cup!!!

I hope to be there as member of the italian team! Rolling Eyes

Tojurub - Feb 15, 2006 - 06:04 AM
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CyberHare wrote:

Is there some issue with Nottingham I should know about?

it's in the middle of nowhere!!!!!...London can be reached easily by plane and has a decent subway system.

and I agree with Juergen....I'm not as "big" as Juergen, but for tall people it sucks as well...ever since I went to BB 43, I have pain in my upper legs from the cut blood circulation from sitting at these tables

AnthonyTBBF - Feb 15, 2006 - 07:54 AM
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I blame the low tables for all my losses at the BB. Smile

I think I spent more time trying to unjam my legs from under there than anything else.

Tim - Feb 15, 2006 - 08:07 AM
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Warhammer World is a pain to play in unless they agree to remove their crappy tables and chairs.

And i'd second that Nottingham is a pain to reach. No decent airport nearby, 4h bus trip from London ...

AnthonyTBBF - Feb 15, 2006 - 08:33 AM
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Tall people unite! Very Happy

What large tournies are held in London? Can anyone offer any venue suggestions?

CyberHare - Feb 15, 2006 - 10:05 AM
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Those are valid concerns about warhammer world. We're going to look into a different venue right in the London area. It will almost certainly cost more though. What is the priority of the two? A cheaper ticket price or a more convenient & more comfortable venue. Obvously the best of both world is the desired outcome but if it comes down to a choice what's the general preferance?

AnthonyTBBF - Feb 15, 2006 - 10:42 AM
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Actually it may work ou tthe same or less. I remember it being pretty costly getting up to Nottinghame on the train.

Deathwing - Feb 15, 2006 - 12:00 PM
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Suggestion. I wonder about the venue for the Spiky tournament in Reading?

Several advantages:
1) It'd be a lot cheaper than London, accomodation wise as well. (Plenty within walking distance of venue).
2) It's a big enough room for our needs, with bar.
3) About 1.15 train journey, direct link from London Gatwick airport. About 30 mins from London Paddington railway station. Venue is walking distance from Reading station or a short taxi ride.
4) Attached kitchen, at the Spiky there's a lunchtime meal included in the ticket price, providing a meal could be a possibility.
5) Plenty of nightlife, pubs, clubs etc for the evenings.
6) Proper tables and chairs. Smile

Worth considering.

Melifaxis - Feb 15, 2006 - 12:34 PM
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Oh sweet temptation...

CyberHare - Feb 15, 2006 - 01:01 PM
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The place sounds interesting Woody. What type of place is it? Is it a hotel or just a hall? I think the ideal place would be a hotel that can handle us all in one place. No traveling from venue to hotel will be a big convenience and the savings in time and extra travel expenses would be significant.

Paul - Feb 15, 2006 - 01:06 PM
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yea, I like the idea of rolling out of my bed and walking down some stairs to play my early morning games.

Spazzfist - Feb 15, 2006 - 01:09 PM
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Paul wrote:

yea, I like the idea of rolling out of my bed and walking down some stairs to play my early morning games.

But please, remember to put on some pants before you go down! Shocked

Paul - Feb 15, 2006 - 01:26 PM
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see, I thought about making that same joke myself. And besides, whats wrong with playing blood bowl in your lucky boxer shorts Very Happy

lawquoter - Feb 15, 2006 - 01:32 PM
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Blood Bowl Hedonism..... Shocked

I LIKE IT. Cool

Booze, BB, all we need are Busty Barmaids. Twisted Evil

juergen - Feb 15, 2006 - 02:06 PM
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since the NAF WorldCup is played every 4 years I think I would rather pay more to have a nice tournamant AND location rather then cramping up in WH World.

Hey, it's every 4 years, I think you can save the extra costs sometime within the time span...

Dave - Feb 15, 2006 - 03:36 PM
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about the team selection

are you planning to 'enforce' any rules or will you let each country sort it out themselves, within certain parametres for example ??

Tojurub - Feb 15, 2006 - 10:27 PM
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I know what will happen in Germany now Wink

Paul - Feb 15, 2006 - 10:37 PM
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Dave wrote:

about the team selection

are you planning to 'enforce' any rules or will you let each country sort it out themselves, within certain parametres for example ??

I'd guess that it'll be up to each country to select their team. I know Team Canadas selection process may be a little Q&A

Q: Are you able to go to the tournament?
A: Yes
Q: welcome aboard Smile

I'm starting to plan for this early, so hopefully I can make it.

Chunky - Feb 17, 2006 - 03:11 PM
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I imagine Australias selection process will be precisely that above.

A couple of points from somewhere who has never been closer to Europe than Queensland.

- Many of us may well try and billet out with UK BBers to try and save on costs, so the hotel idea, while good in theory, may not work out all that well.

- Go for the better venue! I'm probably going to be paying at least 500 pounds for the flight alone, so an extra 50 for a venue that doesn't involve significant cramping (my nick is Chunky for a reason!) seems like a comparitively good investment.

- There should be some planning to the after hours festivities Smile

Much as Blood Bowl is great, I may be more inclined to seeing the local sights (read pubs). Now I know this will happen regardless, but there could be a hell of a lot of sheep to manage.

Darkson - Feb 17, 2006 - 03:41 PM
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I'm there - just let me know when and how much.

Plus I agree with Woody over Spiky Club (if it's available) over WW (and I'm not even that big or tall - how the hell does Valen manage? Wink

Paul - Feb 17, 2006 - 05:22 PM
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Quote:

There should be some planning to the after hours festivities icon_smile.gif Much as Blood Bowl is great, I may be more inclined to seeing the local sights (read pubs)

One of the locals will have to orginize a pub crawl for one of the nights.

CyberHare - Feb 18, 2006 - 05:47 AM
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Paul wrote:

Quote:

There should be some planning to the after hours festivities icon_smile.gif Much as Blood Bowl is great, I may be more inclined to seeing the local sights (read pubs)

One of the locals will have to orginize a pub crawl for one of the nights.

Not a bad idea. Once we have a location picked we'll have to find a sucker.. umm I mean volunteer to sort that out. Wink

Lycos - Feb 18, 2006 - 11:26 AM
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As a local to the Spikey venue perhaps I should chuck the following in for you.
a) the venue is actually the Reading Post Office Club. It is very very popular for bookings so act fast if you want it for 4 days. Dave Palmer has been very fortunate to get it for spiky and I think he knows people there in power.
b) the excellent food is cooked by Dave's mum so you wont get that for this event. You will have to think about alternative food provision.
c) Reading is not that much cheaper than London anymore.
d) The pub crawl is okay, but the nightlife is "average". I cant in good faith describe my home town as the centre of all great night life

but
Very handy for World travellers. Heathrow and gatwick are on very good rail connections. If you are ok paying £40 a night (that's what much of the hotel/bbs charge here) and spending a bit on food an beer, then yes, Reading is very easy to get to.

OZjesting - Feb 21, 2006 - 06:00 PM
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I haven't seen any numbers on how MANY coaches for a team. Just so we know how many spots we have to argue over Wink

CyberHare - Feb 22, 2006 - 03:50 AM
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Each team will be formed of 8 coaches. Each team may also be allowed 2 alternates. These alternates are not obligatory. They are extra team members that can swap in with their own rosters to give other team members a break if needed. A team must at the very least though have 8 coaches.

Chunky - Feb 22, 2006 - 01:58 PM
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Woah! 8 is probably going to be hard to muster from here. I think Doubleskulls is right, expats may need to be tapped for the motherland.

CyberHare - Feb 22, 2006 - 05:09 PM
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Thanks to Mr. Watts we now have a proper header for the website.

Check it out www.nafworldcup.com

Babs - Feb 22, 2006 - 07:29 PM
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Can I suggest that the winning team be hosts for the following NAF World Cup?

That's something to play for!

Also, the other thing is, If I'm planning to attend the NAF World Cup in 2011 over the other side of the world, then can it be possible to hold it during common times of less work/study? Around CHristmas or the June/July period most people have less work - and therefore are more available to attend.

Of course, if my first point is agreed to, and Australia win - we'll have to hold it sometime in our summer when people will be freezing their A$$es off in their own countries.

AnthonyTBBF - Feb 23, 2006 - 07:29 AM
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Babs wrote:

Can I suggest that the winning team be hosts for the following NAF World Cup?

It's been that way all along...

CyberHare - Feb 23, 2006 - 03:07 PM
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AnthonyTBBF wrote:

Babs wrote:

Can I suggest that the winning team be hosts for the following NAF World Cup?

It's been that way all along...

It has? As far as I know that isn't the intention. Unless I missed a memo Smile

Deathwing - Feb 23, 2006 - 06:48 PM
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That's the way the Eurobowl works, not the World Cup. Let's be fair here, it wouldn't be right to expect the colonials to keep visiting the old world every four years ad infinitum would it now? Razz

CyberHare - Feb 23, 2006 - 07:58 PM
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Yeah Yeah you'll be cryin' in yer ale when the World Cup Trophy flies back across the pond with team Canada. I may have to steal it or hide it in my luggage but it's still comin back with us Laughing

Paul - Feb 23, 2006 - 08:15 PM
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he he, you tell them Brian. The real problem is when they'll have to come back to Canada in 2015 cause we're going to win it 2 years in arow.

Ok, I may be getting ahead of myself, but moving it around would be cool. I'm sure different cities in different countries could even bid to host it. I know there would be a huge fight between Montreal and Toronto to host it if (and when) it comes to Canada. My vote, Halifax. Its the best of both places (actually, its just better than both places Very Happy

)

CyberHare - Feb 24, 2006 - 03:42 AM
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Paul wrote:

moving it around would be cool. I'm sure different cities in different countries could even bid to host it.

That's my intention. It's in the UK this time because we know Team England is going to come in last place and I figured they needed the ego boost Wink

For 2011 we'll have interested parties submit their proposals to host the event.

And we couldn't host it in Halifax. They'd think we were invading since we'd double their population for the week Shocked

Roller - Feb 24, 2006 - 01:08 PM
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Paul wrote:

Dave wrote:

about the team selection

are you planning to 'enforce' any rules or will you let each country sort it out themselves, within certain parametres for example ??

I'd guess that it'll be up to each country to select their team. I know Team Canadas selection process may be a little Q&A

Q: Are you able to go to the tournament?
A: Yes
Q: welcome aboard Smile

I'm starting to plan for this early, so hopefully I can make it.

Italy, and probably some other european nations, have many coaches how'll attend to the first world cup.

Could it be an Open tournament? With more than one team each country?

Bevan - Feb 26, 2006 - 01:44 AM
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CyberHare wrote:

Does this last sentence mean a team that does not have 8 coaches for a session would be disqualified?

I can see myself going along as alternate and none of the others want a break so I don't play at all, except for the morning on the second day when 5 of the Autralian team wake up after a late night "socialising", decide that Bevan can take their place and go back to sleep. Rolling Eyes

Is there any way to allow some variation in team numbers so that all members play but only the best 6 or 8 count for team points? This would allow reserves to play every session (if they want to), but not force every team to have the same number of players, and allow for last minute cancellations due to serious injury or death, without forcing the whole team out. I'm not sure if this can be done if every round is country vs country.

Doubleskulls - Feb 26, 2006 - 05:01 AM
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Bevan I doubt there will be enough competition for places for you to worry too much about being an alternate. I'm sure we'll work something out that means everyone who goes gets to play.

CyberHare - Feb 26, 2006 - 07:41 AM
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Bevan wrote:

CyberHare wrote:

Does this last sentence mean a team that does not have 8 coaches for a session would be disqualified?

No they wouldn't be disqualified. If a team was missing one or more coaches for a single round then their opponent would automatically get the points for the missing matchups. If a team shows up for the event and for a good reason is missing coaches at registration then I'm sure there will be plenty of people on hand to be able to find someone to fill the spots.

Darkson - Feb 26, 2006 - 02:48 PM
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Well, both my brother, and my sister-in-law have visited Oz, and I've watched neighbours for years, so I must qualify? Wink

OldManDraco - Mar 02, 2006 - 03:16 AM
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Deathwing wrote:

That's the way the Eurobowl works, not the World Cup. Let's be fair here, it wouldn't be right to expect the colonials to keep visiting the old world every four years ad infinitum would it now? Razz

If you have it every 4 yours, you could do the same as the Olympics. A town can apply to host the World Cup and then the presidents and TO's of the NAF visit all the venues to check them out and pick one in the end! Laughing

Turin - Mar 02, 2006 - 06:56 AM
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Draco wrote:

visit all the venues to check them out

You mean the pubs? Wink

Babs - Mar 02, 2006 - 02:55 PM
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I think that at this rate we can probably get 8 players. Poor Team NZ on the other hand, will be lucky to get one - but then again they were never big on the medal tally anyway Smile

How about Douglas Maclaine Cross - winner of CanCon 2006? While he may be living in Malaysia - he's an Australian citizen - and a damned good BB player.

Babs - Mar 06, 2006 - 06:40 PM
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Can poor Team NZ combine with Team Oz?

We have a player from New Zealand (smeborg) who wants to participate.

Doubleskulls - Mar 07, 2006 - 12:59 AM
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I don't see why not.

Chunky - Mar 07, 2006 - 04:38 AM
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It looks like we've got 6 possibles at the moment.

Me
Ian
Dan Collins
Doug
Smeborg
ozjesting

CyberHare - Mar 07, 2006 - 10:04 AM
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Babs wrote:

Can poor Team NZ combine with Team Oz?

We have a player from New Zealand (smeborg) who wants to participate.

Yes NZ can combine with team Oz, there's no problem with that at all.

Spazzfist - Mar 07, 2006 - 10:11 AM
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CyberHare wrote:

Babs wrote:

Can poor Team NZ combine with Team Oz?

We have a player from New Zealand (smeborg) who wants to participate.

Yes NZ can combine with team Oz, there's no problem with that at all.

Yeah, because otherwise we could not let Team Quebec, join Team Canada! Razz

AnthonyTBBF - Mar 07, 2006 - 10:35 AM
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So is this going to use the PBBL/5th Ed./Whatever it's called rules?

Taxal - Mar 07, 2006 - 10:42 AM
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so can anyone play in the world cup?

is there a maximum amount of players from each country allowed to go?

Chunky - Mar 07, 2006 - 01:45 PM
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I've been assured it will be good clean wholesome LRB4.

CyberHare - Mar 07, 2006 - 04:43 PM
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Taxal wrote:

so can anyone play in the world cup?

That's a two part question or perhaps it's a two part answer. At any rate...

There will be two events running at the World Cup. The National team event where teams are playing for the world Cup title and a side open tournament where anyone can play. So anyone can play at the world cup open event but only members of the national teams will play in the national team event.

Taxal wrote:

is there a maximum amount of players from each country allowed to go?

Each country can bring as many players as it can round up to attend the event. Each national team will be made up of 8 coaches and 2 optional alternates

Quote:

So is this going to use the PBBL/5th Ed./Whatever it's called rules?

What Chunky said.

Darkson - Mar 09, 2006 - 04:15 AM
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Any houserules for the LRB 4, or just straight?

CyberHare - Mar 09, 2006 - 05:01 AM
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I'm testing a rule set at the North American team event in a couple months and the World Cup rules will be built from that rule set. You can see the NA rule set here..

http://www.bloodbowl.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=2863&start=105

There probably won't be many changes for the World Cup from this rule set.

Darkson - Mar 12, 2006 - 09:46 AM
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Quote:

Undead and Necromatic teams have of course a Necromancer as their Head Coach. Unfortunately their ability to raise the dead will not work on players killed during this tournament.

Seems a little harsh. Surely allowing the Undead/Necro team a Zombie for the rest of the game if they kill someone is ok?

CyberHare - Mar 12, 2006 - 02:19 PM
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Undead and Necro teams are already some of the better tournament teams. This is to tone them down a little and really I havn't found it to be harmfull to their performance at all. Player regenerate AND raise the dead is just a little too much for already powerfull teams.

Mordredd - Mar 21, 2006 - 07:47 AM
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Taking away the free Zombie from the LRB4 teams would probably be perfectly fine. Taking the free Zombie from the LRB5 teams would be really harsh though as the teams got significantly taken down by the vault.

Paul - Mar 21, 2006 - 12:13 PM
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The vault is not LRB5

CyberHare - Mar 22, 2006 - 03:50 AM
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Not yet. Sadly it'll be soon.

In any case this isn't a pro/con vault thread. We'll be using the LRB 4.0 for the tourney. The current LRB is the backbone of the tournament scene and it would be disrespectfull to everyone who's put their time and effort into LRB4.0 to not use it for the World Cup. It's been tested, tried, tweaked as needed and it works very very well. The World Cup isn't the place to start reinventing the wheel.

Xtreme - Apr 06, 2006 - 09:11 PM
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I was talking about the World Cup with some guys in my league and I think a great idea was brought up. Since this is going to be held every 4 years and be a pretty special event we thought it would be cool to have a legacy team made for it. We could have each country paint up a figure or two in their national colors and bring it along with them, and have the completed team there at the tournament. What do you think?

Longshot - May 18, 2006 - 05:35 PM
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sorry to mention that. but i agree with Aramil about the bad date choice...check TBB thread

Dave - May 19, 2006 - 04:33 AM
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same here .. November would be much better IMHO. I understand for brits it's an easy one to go to but for other european players it's there next to the Dutch Open, Eurobowl is only 4 months past, and the BB is coming up .. November would be more suitable, we'll move the EB one year, no problem

Sputnik - May 19, 2006 - 06:09 AM
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Being back from the BB, I can tell you that after clarification with GW, the date will be in Nottingham end of October. The specific weekend (we are down to two) will be announced later. However, it will be end of October.

Sputnik

Dave - May 19, 2006 - 09:10 AM
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now that's good news

Chunky - May 19, 2006 - 01:48 PM
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I'd hope that would be October next year. If its October 2006 it would drastically affect Australias ability to participate.

Deathwing - May 19, 2006 - 04:40 PM
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To confirm, October 2007.

Grotuk - May 20, 2006 - 06:15 AM
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Crap...thats not so good date for me :S

I would need to study one year more to get easy holidays :p

TuernRedvenom - May 21, 2006 - 04:26 AM
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Deathwing wrote:

To confirm, October 2007.

great news! Exclamation

Melifaxis - Jun 30, 2006 - 09:12 AM
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Can we keep the first post updated with the latest info please?

Chunky - Jul 27, 2006 - 02:38 AM
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Whats going on with this tournament?

There has been no news since the announcement of the move to October.

For the those of us who will be fronting up the time and expense to come halfway around the world to play (and are trying to organise 7 other people to do so), this dilly-dallying is proving to be a hindrance, and if it continues for much longer will in all likelihood mean no antipodean prescence at the event.

Hoping to hear some solid news in the near future.

Edit: Changing the references from MArch to October on the front page of the thread would likely be helpful also.

Bevan - Jul 31, 2006 - 04:21 AM
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Chunky wrote:

Whats going on with this tournament?

There has been no news since the announcement of the move to October.

Changing the references from March to October on the front page of the thread would likely be helpful also.

The NAFWorldCup.com official web site shows 225 days to go. Can we have that corrected too, assuming it is not currently correct. Rolling Eyes

Some time back it was announced that the World Cup would use team rules to be tested in the North American Cup. That event seems to be long over, so can we have another update on how it will be organised.

Old_Man_Monkey - Jul 31, 2006 - 11:35 AM
Post subject:

I edited El Presidente's original announcement and Cyberhare's followup from the 1st page to relfect the newer October date....

Still not determined whether it's the 2nd or 3rd week of October but should hear something soon....

I don't know who's updating the NAFWC site but will find out and offer some help... hey, Bevan, are you willing to help out as well?

Bevan - Jul 31, 2006 - 09:49 PM
Post subject:

Old_Man_Monkey wrote:

I don't know who's updating the NAFWC site but will find out and offer some help... hey, Bevan, are you willing to help out as well?

I'm a programmer (more or less Embarassed

), or at least I've written a program for organising tournaments, but I don't know anyting about web sites. I leave that to experts.

I just hope it's not really starting at 5am, whatever date it is. Rolling Eyes

Longshot - Aug 01, 2006 - 10:46 AM
Post subject:

Rules: LRB5 now i suppose ? Wink

TuernRedvenom - Aug 03, 2006 - 06:44 AM
Post subject:

Longshot wrote:

Rules: LRB5 now i suppose ? Wink

Let's hope so! Smile

CyberHare - Aug 03, 2006 - 09:29 AM
Post subject:

TuernRedvenom wrote:

Longshot wrote:

Rules: LRB5 now i suppose ? Wink

Let's hope so! Smile

How about not and pretend you did Wink

I don't know what's going on with this event. Last I heard from Woody he was taking over and then he moved into the stone age Laughing

Bevan - Aug 03, 2006 - 05:11 PM
Post subject:

CyberHare wrote:

I don't know what's going on with this event. Last I heard from Woody he was taking over and then he moved into the stone age Laughing

That might be why the official web site says, with regard to the North American team event "Look here soon to see the teams and rosters from the event". It is now about 3 months since this team event was held. Embarassed

Maybe the World Cup has fallen through and I've been practicing hard all this time for nothing. Rolling Eyes

I am concerned that only 24 coaches attended that team event and the 4 member team from Canada was too small and had to be dispersed into 4 other teams. Rolling Eyes

There have been indications that several countries will have trouble meeting the minimum of 8 per team, where the travel sosts will be much higher than the American event.

Would it be better to make it a standard Swiss style event, with the provision that no-one would play a member of their own country. Countries could have teams of up to 10 members, with the best 6 coaches from each country counting for their team score. This is a common system for many international events and would avoid the requirement of needing an exact match of team numbers, so everyone who wanted to could play in each round.

We would still need the restriction that each country could have only one of each race. Or was it that each coach has a different race in every round. Twisted Evil

Although it seems a long time to October 2007, some of us may have only 1 or 2 opportunities to play a series of matches against top coaches under rules likely to be used in the World Cup. Given the requirement to avoid duplication of races, this makes it critical to lock in the rules as soon as poosible so we can jostle for the right to play our preferred race or switch to an alternate race if necessary.

The following comments are based on an almost total lack of experience with these events. Embarassed

LRB4 or LRB5.
Either way we will have coaches who lack experience with the new (or old) skill definitions. However, it seems unreasonable to have a world standard event and not use rules introduced more than 12 months previously. We can easily ban all inducements, cards, weapons, stars or whatever else upsets people.

100k or 110k teams.
I really don't want to play 8 or 9 games with a 100k team, whereas 110k appears to allow a reasonably balanced team for all races.

Skill progression.
I prefer all my skills up front so the team stays the same in all games. However, I would be happy with 3 skills before the first day, 6 before the 2nd and 9 before the third.
I suggest each block of 3 skills allows one to be a double, since normally 1/6 of upgrades are stat changes and 1/6 doubles, but stat upgrades should be definitely disallowed. No player should gain more than 1 skill.
Discussion after Eucalyptus Bowl suggested Big Guys should not get any skills and obviously Stars (if allowed) should not get them.

Can we have some of these issues discussed and finalised in the near future?

Longshot - Aug 04, 2006 - 03:50 AM
Post subject:

if you re lacking experience on this kind of Tourney, check the eurobowl rules. we start to have some good feedback years after years

GalakStarscraper - Aug 04, 2006 - 07:59 AM
Post subject:

Bevan wrote:

LRB4 or LRB5.
However, it seems unreasonable to have a world standard event and not use rules introduced more than 12 months previously. We can easily ban all inducements, cards, weapons, stars or whatever else upsets people.

My thoughts and of course they are biased ... acknowledged up front.

By the time the World Cup rolls around the LRB 5.0 will have been official for over 14 months. I don't see how it is reasonable to have the event with the LRB 4.0 rules even though I understand that CyberHare cannot stand them.

As for the extras in LRB 5.0. Easy enough to ban all the inducements other than the Master Chef for Halflings (which I think is important to have as an option for them). Since the price of most of the stars got jacked up as well if you wanted each low end race to have a fighting chance I personally would allow the stars as well as my experience is that the Stars only really show up on the Goblin, Ogre, and Halfling teams ... but that is a matter of taste. Personally I'd allow Star Player if the tournament was 100 TV ... not allow Stars (or only allow them for Goblin, Halfling, and Ogre teams) if it was 110 TV.

For the Chaos Cup (100 TV) we are allowing all inducements to be purchased as permanent part of the teams other than Special Play Cards. I'll make sure to report exactly what inducements I see at the Chaos Cup and my thoughts on how allowing them all worked.

And I agree that its unfortunately after a great head of steam that the discussion and planning of the event seems to have stalled.

By the way ... I really like Bevan's idea of allowing individual Swiss and not having the same country play each other and then taking the best 4 to 6 players scores as the team result. That's seems a great way to allow anyone who wants to attend to come without trying to force the 8 man squads.

Galak

CyberHare - Aug 04, 2006 - 08:51 AM
Post subject:

GalakStarscraper wrote:

By the time the World Cup rolls around the LRB 5.0 will have been official for over 14 months. I don't see how it is reasonable to have the event with the LRB 4.0 rules even though I understand that CyberHare cannot stand them.

My feelings about the 5.0 "rulebook" aside I'm not running this event anymore so don't pin any rule choices on me. A reason to use 4.0 though might be that some of us actually appreciate the fact that the tournament scene was built on 4.0, not 5.0! So perhaps we might want to give it one more "hurrah" before we send it packing.

Besides. 5.0 isn't even in the actual game. How can you "reasonably" run a global tournament with a rule book that isn't even close to the rule book that's available in the actual game?

GalakStarscraper - Aug 04, 2006 - 09:27 AM
Post subject:

CyberHare wrote:

Besides. 5.0 isn't even in the actual game. How can you "reasonably" run a global tournament with a rule book that isn't even close to the rule book that's available in the actual game?

okay serious.

If you use the rulebook in the boxed set the Elf, Ogre, Norse, Nurgle, Amazon, Lizardman, Khemri, Vampire, and Necromantic teams aren't even part of the rulebook. The Kick-off table is different. Wild Animal allows you to cause turnovers on your opponent. Take Root has the Treeman missing the whole first half.

There's more ... but the bottom line ... if you limited it to tournament play if you listed the differences from the rulebook in the box to LRB 4.0 and then to LRB 5.0 ... there would not be a great difference between the lists. Yes LRB 5.0 would have more ... not questioning that .... but the list for LRB 4.0 would be pretty long as well.

I'm just countering your argument here Brian that the LRB 4.0 is closer to the boxed set rulebook than the LRB 5.0 ... nothing more.

If LRB 5.0 very different from the boxed set ... definitely yes. Is the LRB 4.0 very different from the boxed set ... definitely yes as well.

Galak

Mootaz - Aug 04, 2006 - 09:34 AM
Post subject:

CyberHare wrote:

I'm not running this event anymore so don't pin any rule choices on me.

So who is running it currently?

CyberHare - Aug 04, 2006 - 09:38 AM
Post subject:

Bahh whatever. I'm on vacation in just over an hour so this can wait till I see you in Indy. Cool

I've updated the news on the world cup website and as soon as I get a chance I'll remove the timer.

CyberHare - Aug 04, 2006 - 09:41 AM
Post subject:

Mootaz wrote:

So who is running it currently?

If I could give you a straight answer I would. I'm not going to be able to be at the event so organizing the whole thing and then not showing up is pretty dumb Wink

I let Woody know and he said he'd take the lead but that was just about the time he lost all access to the civilized world so I havn't spoken to him since. I know OMM has spoken to Woody since then and I believe Indigo has as well so maybe they have more info.

bampf - Aug 04, 2006 - 11:51 AM
Post subject:

Quote:

Bahh whatever.

Another well thought out and well reasoned anti-LRB 5 argument from CyberHare... It s like he has a never-ending supply of them.

GalakStarscraper - Aug 04, 2006 - 11:54 AM
Post subject:

bampf wrote:

Quote:

Bahh whatever.

Another well thought out and well reasoned anti-LRB 5 argument from CyberHare... It s like he has a never-ending supply of them.

Now come on that is just pure trolling bampf. I know folks are still sore over the process of LRB 5.0 ... but I'm hoping that now that the "damage" is done ... we could stop having all the knockabouts.

Galak

bampf - Aug 04, 2006 - 12:46 PM
Post subject:

Yeah, it was trolling. Call it a moment of weakness. Sometimes ya just can t help yourself...

Chunky - Aug 04, 2006 - 08:23 PM
Post subject:

Well if the tourney may change to LRB5 thats another reason things need to get sorted out pretty quickly.

If its LRB5 team Oceania will be in need of a new captain.

Paul - Aug 04, 2006 - 11:13 PM
Post subject:

are people that offended by LRB 5 that they won't go to a tournament with it as the rules?

Its about playing the games, meeting new people and having fun. Lets just set up the games, roll a die to see who wins then have a beer or two.

Bevan - Aug 05, 2006 - 01:59 AM
Post subject:

Paul wrote:

If you are planning to travel halfway round the world (as in Chunky's case) then you want to be sure that you'll enjoy the games as well as meet new people, etc. Very Happy

I'm not sure if there are major problems for tournament play, but if your local league stays with LRB4 then you may not get any practice with the team and skill changes.

I'm keen to sort out the rule set as soon as possible, because some of them make a significant difference. For example, If we have LRB5 and TV100 then I won't be able to use a Rat Ogre. They are totally unreliable, Rolling Eyes

so that isn't a major problem, but I may have to change my playing style a bit. Sad

Chunky - Aug 05, 2006 - 06:31 AM
Post subject:

Yes I am that offended - that whole fun thing doesn't happen for me with LRB5. Once that happens I'd just as soon do it playing WHFB - there are plenty players of that I'd like to meet overseas as well as BB.

GalakStarscraper - Aug 05, 2006 - 08:24 AM
Post subject:

Just to be clear ... I have zero issue if it is an LRB 4.0 event. Every tournament sets its own rules. I was just agreeing that 14 months out it might seem unusual ... but since folks are trying to talk other folks into flying in from around the world ... if the old ruleset is used so that folks can play teams from what they already know ... that makes sense as well.

Galak

Old_Man_Monkey - Aug 05, 2006 - 12:38 PM
Post subject:

I'll tell what I know or at least believe:

1) when I last was with Woody, he was waiting upon GW to decide upon the final date - most else regarding the permission to use of the facility (space, cafeteria, Bugmans, etc.) has been worked out (except for the final per head cost). Also being finalized are the other events that might be possible around a WC tourney - such as an open team tourney, open individual tourney, painting competition(s), or other BB variants (StreetBowl, BB7s, RatOgreBall, or DungeonBowl (PM me if you've never played any of these fun side games....)

2) A tourney hotel and negotiated rate is still being looked into, tho' most places of board want a large deposit and I am waiting for another month or so until it is hopefully clearer about format and numbers attending....

3) I have been upfront in how I view the ruleset - originally the LRB5 was not going to be offered until next spring (07), at which point I was concerned, as were others, about the filter time for coaches to know and understand these rules. However, with the rules now being officially announced, I am in support of the LRB5 being used (with PERHAPS some very slight mods to insure that dice events do not imbalance an individual game). I also had some concern that the NAF avoid, as much as possible, being seen as endorsing a particular ruleset, although to some extent that cannot be helped. I agree with Bevan's observation that the earlier the ruleset, TR and special tournament rules are announced, the less confusion there will be and the longer there will be to answer any questions.

The sole and complete objective is to make this a memorable and fun event and to demonstrate the NAF's ability to organize and administer a large scale event. I believe it is going to succeed wildly and I am tremendously excited though it is still more than 14 months away....

The staff has been busy trying to complete the TO kit and deliver at last a start to finish tournament organizers kit to be proud of.... I'm sure that once this is kicked off, all focus will turn to the World Cup.

Bevan - Aug 05, 2006 - 02:57 PM
Post subject:

Old_Man_Monkey wrote:

... Also being finalized are the other events that might be possible around a WC tourney - such as an open team tourney, open individual tourney, painting competition(s), or other BB variants (StreetBowl, BB7s, RatOgreBall, or DungeonBowl ....

I'm glad to hear that something is happening, but the rest of us could keep our enthusiasm going if we get regular updates instead of saying nothing untill everything is finalised.

It would be useful to discuss some of these ideas before they get set in concrete so that we can at least have the belief that our opinions were taken into account, even if this isn't the case. Rolling Eyes

For example - will I be able to play BB7s as well as the team event? Are three Rat Ogres enough for RatOgreBall or do I need a whole team? Will I be able to survive more than two days straight of intense concentration? Do I need to totally rebuild my Skaven models to allow for the new mutation rules? Should I switch to Chaos and have an entire team of mutants? Twisted Evil

Is there an LRB5 rule subset that even LRB4 diehards would agree is fun? Very Happy

Bevan - Aug 05, 2006 - 08:02 PM
Post subject: Suggestions

I previously suggested that it might be necessary to combine the team event with an individual event, due to problems with getting equal numbers from each country.

However, if there will be an individual event, then I wonder if we could have the best of both options.

Run the individual event over 3 days as usual, but avoiding coaches from the same country playing each other except in the final round. Coaches could take any race they preferred, whether or not other coaches from the same country had that race. (I can't see any way to have the individual event in less than 3 days unless we can all manage 4 games per day.)

Work out the best coach for each race from each country. Add up points for the best 6 races from each country to find the best 8 countries. These 8 countries would play a knockout or Swiss event on the 4th day. Limiting it to 8 ensures a winner in one day.

The number of coaches per country could be adjusted slighly by agreement depending on how many countries had a reasonable number of coaches.

This would allow the far flung outposts to send anyone who was eligible without being too concerned that if they only had 5 then none if them could play, since they would all get to play in the 3-day event. It would not force every coach from a given country to take a different race, if they accepted that only one of the duplicates could represent their country.

Those coaches not involved in the national teams event on the 4th day would play 7s, RatOgreBowl or whatever. I'm keen to try a 7s series so I wouldn't mind if Australia misses the cut. Rolling Eyes

Old_Man_Monkey - Aug 06, 2006 - 01:05 AM
Post subject:

I've received several requests for rules to Rat Ogre Ball; here's what I have remembered and sent (if any of the authors care to comment or correct, please feel free...)

one fig each
start with ball at center or as close as possible
from the ball, count six squares away for each player (four to five coaches is best)
then just use RO stats and Big Guy rules to try and score in either end zone

special rules:
no assists
nothing greater than stun
out of bound is just a stun
number of rerolls is optional - two has been the most common with four or more players

roll for Initiative for each player after each round - if four players, then
Round I
Initiative roll: 6-5-4-3
six goes, then five, then four, then three
Round 2
Initiative roll: 4-3-3-2
four goes, the two coaches rolling threes roll off to see who goes next

A coach who was stunned will just use there next turn to move to prone, so it is not technically necessary for them to roll Initiative but easier sometimes to keep track of....

So a coach can make two successive moves if he was last then first, but with the RO's hard to make movement roll and and the need to blitz so often it gets crazy. It's always a one die block so anything can happen.
Give it a try...

Old_Man_Monkey - Nov 13, 2006 - 10:40 AM
Post subject:

We can at last announce the following details for the first ever NAF World Cup.

The 2007 NAF World Cup will be held in the Warhammer World at the Games-Workshop World Headquarters in Nottingham, UK.

The dates for the THREE day event are October 19, 20, and 21 of October, 2007.

There will be a TEAM competition following similar guidelines as have been used for the 2006 Eurobowl competition, and an OPEN Individual tournament held concurrent with the team event. Still in discussion is an OPEN TEAM tournament for those who may wish to form multinational teams and compete against other such allied teams. Also in discussion is the possibility of conducting side tournaments for other Blood Bowl variants such as StreetBowl, BB7s, etc.

This year's Eurobowl winning nation will serve as honorary host to the event and will remain as the host for the 2008 Eurobowl.

We will be announcing special hotel and hostel rates for several hotels near to the event location - we had hoped to have this completed before the announcement, however the advertisement in this month's UK White Dwarf was unexpected, so we thought it best to distribute what firm information we had at this time.

Games-Workshop has DONATED the use of the Hall for this event; lunch and dinner will be included in the ticket price for the World Cup tournaments. We are just now meeting with the GW-Event Planning staff to determine menus and number of coaches; the tickets for this event will go on sale in the Spring/early Summer of 2007.

There will be a SPECIAL EDITION miniature given out EACH ROUND of EACH TOURNAMENT as well as many other special gifts and prizes.

There will be a coaches' meet and greet on the Thursday night before the tournament, opening and closing ceremonies with lots of fun and surprises in store, and lots of impromptu madness to boot.

This will be a complete celebration of the game we play and the friendships and good times that have come to be such an important part of a BloodBowl tournament. I personally thank all the membership for their patience and understanding as the World Cup has moved from possibility to fact. Now that we are confident of a venue, we will put much of the discussion of what to include and how to proceed in front of the membership to hear all possible views and consider the best way to proceed.

I encourage all members of the Blood Bowl community to rally and support this event - we have asked for, and been given, the opportunity to showcase our talents as organizers, players, and sportsmen. I expect nothing less than an outstanding weekend of fun and fellowship, surrounding a few hotly contested games of brilliant Blood Bowl.

Here's to seeing you in Nottingham next October!

Jim Lanier
NAF Treasurer

for

James Woods
NAF President

Spazzfist - Nov 13, 2006 - 10:46 AM
Post subject:

I would LOVE to be able to go, but besides the obvious excuses of work and money, I would have a tough time justifying a trip across the pond for a Blood Bowl tournament to the wife! (Women...... Confused

)

aerofool - Nov 13, 2006 - 10:50 AM
Post subject:

Old_Man_Monkey wrote:

The dates for the THREE day event are October 19, 20, and 21 of October, 1007.

1007? I'm sure it was fun... wonder if anyone remembers that far back?

Truthfully, Oct 2007 is going to be well enough time to save money and vacation days for the trip. Thanks for being nice enough to give us the time to make our plans!

Old_Man_Monkey - Nov 13, 2006 - 11:00 AM
Post subject:

aerofool wrote:

Old_Man_Monkey wrote:

The dates for the THREE day event are October 19, 20, and 21 of October, 1007.

Thanks for the catch, Aero! Damn, I read that thing five times before submitting it...! Confused

Truthfully we would have made the announcement a month or more ago but the GW-UK events guys forgot to tell someone that they had approved the event and were OK with our requirements! So I am hoping that the delay does not prevent any one or any team from coming - the USA will be there, rarin' to go!

Bevan - Nov 13, 2006 - 02:06 PM
Post subject:

I don't want to appear too grouchy about this great event Very Happy

but considering the long time since it was first announced all we seem to have done is chop one day off the original plan.

It appears that we can't enter both the individual event and the team event. This may not matter much since at present there seems to be a severe lack of anyone interested from around here (down under). However, for those who do make a big trip of it, consecutive rather than concurrent events would have been good.

Can we have some more details real soon? How many needed for a team? Do they have to be different races? What rules, LRB 4 or 5? Any special rules about stars, weapons, inducements? Some people are a bit fussy about which rules they'll play under, particularly if a major trip is required.

aerofool - Nov 13, 2006 - 03:25 PM
Post subject:

Spazzfist wrote:

)

Buy your wife a team and teach her to play... That may solve it!

I taught my wife, now she plays a mean WE team!

She may let me go and want to go as well!

Lycos - Nov 13, 2006 - 04:01 PM
Post subject:

Some good questions Bevan. I am going to see the Prez in a few days and he is without internet (hence Jim's post on behalf) but very excited about the World cup. I will get these questions to him.

I can understand your point about the rule set but over here (UK and Europe) you may as well ask.... LRB4? Whats that? Save for a very few leagues we have moved to LRB5.

Old_Man_Monkey - Nov 13, 2006 - 04:34 PM
Post subject:

Some of the staff are exploring the possibility of team members' results being counted in the individual competition. This may be present difficulties that cannot be reconciled but we will explore every avenue available.

I apologize also for not mentioning that the painting competition will be one of the most prestigious ever as we are anticipating a prize package worthy of the "Best Painted" award. If you re-read Cyberhare's original post, the original plan was to have the first day of four be for the meet and greet, painting, one-off games, etc. but that length of time was not available to us. However, should enough of the membership express a desire to add an 'opening day' to the festivities, we can explore contracting one of the hotel ball rooms for such a competition. This will mean at least an extra day of costs (food, accomodations, beer, etc.) should we do this, but we can do this if enough coaches indicate they are willing to participate.

Bevan - Nov 13, 2006 - 06:12 PM
Post subject:

Old_Man_Monkey wrote:

The events could be combined if the team event runs over the first two days only. This allows 6 matches, which should be enough to find a winner among the teams.

Meanwhile the individual event is running concurrently playing 6 games over the same 2 days. For the third day, all the team members count their wins and losses as though they have been in the individual event, to find their ranking at the start of day 3. The final 3 rounds on day 3 should be enough to sort out a world champion regardless of which group they started in. Everyone else will end up with a ranking in the individual list that is fairly close to the correct result.

If some teams have reserves these could swap in and out of the team, while the extra players continue in the individual event according to their ranking at the time.

This means that coaches from US, Canada and Australia (and other distant regions) can make plans to attend and it won't matter whether 1 or a dozen actually turn up on the day, everyone would get to play for 3 days, and if there are enough then some get to represent their country.

Old_Man_Monkey - Nov 13, 2006 - 07:25 PM
Post subject:

The scenario you lay out Bevan is the most likely one, as the current Eurobowl schedule is over six games. An official national team should be declared however, not so much as to fulfill a quota for those nations who might have just enough, but to require representation from those nations who might have 10, 20, 40 or more to choose from.

TuernRedvenom - Nov 14, 2006 - 02:28 AM
Post subject:

It would be whole lot easier to win the individual event if you're not playing for a team though as all the best of the best will be playing in the team event.

Grotuk - Nov 14, 2006 - 02:44 AM
Post subject:

The biggest problem for do it separately is that europeans not in their national team probably are not going to meet any player from the outside of Europe. This makes too less interesting the world cup.

My idea is to make first day open, the 8 best players of each country goes to the Team tourney and the rest plays the individual tournament.

Just an idea.

Emberbreeze - Nov 14, 2006 - 03:46 AM
Post subject:

I do like the 1st day team qualifier idea.

Mootaz - Nov 14, 2006 - 05:41 AM
Post subject:

I also like the first day qualifier. And the drawing of the first round should perhaps be biased towards meeting players/teams from outside your continent. This is of course not always possible, but it would be stupid to have two europeans play and on the next table an american plays against a canadian in game 1.

Bevan - Nov 14, 2006 - 12:25 PM
Post subject:

Grotuk wrote:

My idea is to make first day open, the 8 best players of each country goes to the Team tourney and the rest plays the individual tournament.

It will decrease the value of the individual tournament for everyone involved if all the best players are removed after the first day. If I come 85th in the individual event that should mean 85th and not 185th. Very Happy

Grotuk - Nov 14, 2006 - 12:51 PM
Post subject:

Its the same if the best players plays for their nations from the first day.

And if you already know that you are not in your national team...and you are not going to play some of the better or the most known players in the world...that takes off a lot of interest from the individual tournament.

Thats what i mean. We need to keep both competitions interesting for all the attenders.

aerofool - Nov 14, 2006 - 03:34 PM
Post subject:

Grotuk wrote:

For this reason alone, I'm personally feeling it would be better off having it all open, and just let every player be considered part of their countries "team" so to speak. Either that or run open in day one, and after everyone mingles that first day let them set up their own teams for the following. National groups preferred but not required. Those who fail to get set up in a team can be randomly assigned at the start of the team play. That will allow for some interesting combos, I'm sure!

Bevan - Nov 14, 2006 - 05:41 PM
Post subject:

aerofool wrote:

I'm personally feeling it would be better off having it all open, and just let every player be considered part of their countries "team" so to speak.

If we had 4 days we could run the events consecutively, but that seems to be impossible now. However, there are two ways to allow everyone to participate in a combined individual and team event.

Option 1.
Put everybody into a team. For example, UK nominates 8 coaches for UK1, then any suprlus go into UK2, UK3 etc. Australia/NZ sends 7 and grabs a spare from the mother country. Canada sends 10 and the 2 extras join France2 and so on.

Limit this to 32 teams or less (256 coaches?).

Play 6 games in 2 days to select a winning country. Swiss pairings for countries and Swiss pairing within each country vs country match. Winning country/team announced at the end of day 2.

For the 3rd day, seed everyone individually according to their record in the team event, then play 3 rounds of Swiss pairings for the individual winner and individual placings 1st to 256th.

Option 2
Individual event over 3 days. Each country nominates 8 to 12 coaches to represent that country. Everyone else is playing for themselves or placed in teams as for Option 1.

Swiss pairings for all 9 rounds (except possibly for places 1 to 4 in round 9). Pairings based on win/loss, but no other match based tiebreaker. All pairings adjusted, if possible, to avoid any coach playing another from the same country and, if possible, playing against a different country in each round.

For the 9th round the top 4 players would be selected, using TD or other scores for tiebreakers if necessary, the rest are paired as usual.

Country team results are calculated for the top 8 (or 6) coaches of the 8 to 12 chosen to represent their country.

Option 1 allows teams to play as a group, wear team uniforms, have cheerleaders nearby etc, but is not quite even for all players. A coach in a weak team will have the team paired against other weak teams, allowing that coach easier games than coaches in good teams. However, the last 3 individual games should sort them out.

Option 2 provides an individual winner as well as country winner in the same competition and is equally fair for everyone, but loses some of the team flavour. Coaches in their national team could still wear uniform, but woul not be playing as a group.

Old_Man_Monkey - Nov 14, 2006 - 06:42 PM
Post subject:

Food for thought - thanks Bevan!

TuernRedvenom - Nov 15, 2006 - 03:01 AM
Post subject:

Grotuk wrote:

Yep, and this is the best idea to make lots of people come to play. Because as we've seen at eurobowl, even though the last few years there were efforts and intentions to get a side tourney set up it failed because only people that could play in the team event were interested in coming at all.
If you want the world cup to be big and open to everybody then team selection like the eurobowl's (captains choose, players not chosen will stay at home) will not work.
What I would do:
1st day: Swiss tourney, best 6 (yes, only 6, this leaves more good players in the individual event and makes sure smaller countries can attend) players of every nation get drafted for their national team (players get the right to refuse and chase individual world cup glory). This then breaks the eurobowl rule of 1 race per country, but so be it...
2nd and third day: nations duke it out like in eurobowl but swiss style for nation pairing, random for player pairing. Individual event (hopefully still enough players after taking away national representatives) just goes on swiss style.

At the end 3 prizes: best national team, best player in team competition, best player in individual comp.

Again, I think it's very important that if you want to have a "real" individual tourney you need to give every participant a chance to qualify for the team event or they will stay at home!

Indigo - Nov 15, 2006 - 03:16 AM
Post subject:

I think there is a lot of merit in that - the World Cup should IMO be less about which team is "best" and more about bringing everyone together and playing as many coaches from other countries as possible.

Indigo - Nov 15, 2006 - 03:29 AM
Post subject:

thinking more along those lines, maybe the best idea is to just run one huge individual tournament. The winner gets a prize, but then to decide the best country, the points for the top 8 coaches in each country are added together to get an overall national score. That way everyone is in effect playing for their national team, but overall at the end their best efforts are represented. It also means those countries that can't field a full 8 still have a chance, but need their players to do better overall.

I also think we need to do a proper "Golden Daemon" style painting competition with numerous categories - since we'll see so many cool teams and models it would not be fair to simply give out a single painting prize.

Lots to think about!

TuernRedvenom - Nov 15, 2006 - 03:53 AM
Post subject:

Indigo wrote:

I can see where you're going but I think that base is already covered by the Blood Bowl tourney itself. IMO team events have a certain charm, something special. At the EB and Lowlands Border Brawl (Belgium vs Holland) I see belgian coaches (like Tim/Bendrig) I never see at the individual tourneys but they do come out to play for Belgium.

Personally, I think the team event is essential to differentiate the tourney from the Blood Bowl. And it's also a lot of fun! Laughing

juergen - Nov 15, 2006 - 03:55 AM
Post subject:

it also means that nations with more then 8 players don't have to decide who plays for their team (england, germany will like this)

but you have to take care about scheduling. Players from each nations playing against each other shouldn't be possible because they take important points away - but then you can't avoid that completely.

not easy...

Indigo - Nov 15, 2006 - 04:04 AM
Post subject:

I'm sure tournament software can be written to do that, and it makes sense. After all coaches from England will often be able to play other English coaches regularly.

As long as people play this in the correct spirit (for fun, not viewing the tournament as a genuine "best in the world" measure but more as a means to get everyone together) then it will work.

TuernRedvenom - Nov 15, 2006 - 04:43 AM
Post subject:

Quote:

Smaller nations will always be at the bottom of this ranking, even if they have 8 (or even a few more players). Nations with more players have more chance some of them getting lucky and scoring all wins and are less affected if one player has a bad weekend, which inevitably happens (others will just pick up the slack).
What you possibly could do is take the 8 best coaches per nation after day 1, and keep those coaches as the only ones able to score points for their nation instead of taking the best 8 at the end of the tourney. I think that's a bit fairer.

Quote:

As long as people play this in the correct spirit (for fun, not viewing the tournament as a genuine "best in the world" measure but more as a means to get everyone together) then it will work.

I think eurobowl shows that competitivity en sportsmanship can go together. I enjoyed every game and everyone was very fair but also very competitive. Smile

That said, your idea is an option to keep everyone involved and interested, although personally I wouldn't like it (I prefer straight up 8 vs 8 or 6 vs 6).

Xtreme - Nov 15, 2006 - 05:44 AM
Post subject:

I think I would prefer the day one individual tournament deciding teams for the team tournament day two. One of the big draws for me is participating in a team event. Something I don't get to do (properly) here.

Having the top 8 score count for each country would only favor the countries that could bring the most coaches. If you wanted to go that route you could use avg country score. But I would still prefer a true team event even if it was only one day of the tournament.

A large painting comp is something that I really think should be done as well.

Old_Man_Monkey - Nov 15, 2006 - 06:58 AM
Post subject:

Grotuk wrote:

Again, I think it's very important that if you want to have a "real" individual tourney you need to give every participant a chance to qualify for the team event or they will stay at home!

And I think just the opposite is true: a "real" individual tournament should allow for everyone who plays in the team event a chance to qualify for the individual event.... I also believe that the coach you mention who would stay home if they can't be own the team would stay home no matter how the teams were chosen. What you suggest is that a coach will venture out on the hopes of playing into a team and then stay for the individual tournament with an "oh well" kind of attitude.

I believe the event is worth support in its entirety and will trust that many will come to play, observe, and be part of the complete weekend.

There are other issues:

1) a one day "play in" in any game involving dice necessarily means that those who are fortunate on that day will be playing for a team under the above proposal.

2) differing nations have different priorities and the NAF has consistently stayed away from dictating how a country chooses its team. This could change for future WCs but I don't believe we should begin to dictate terms now. Let's have a great WC run the first time, and should it become necessary, we can look to other structures in the future.

Personally, I believe a national team should be made up of those who have been long time supporters and workers for the game WITHIN THEIR COUNTRY and have the interest and desire to go. Yes part of it is fielding players who know the rules and are not beginners but this is not the Olympics.

I also believe that playing in the individual tournament with the chance to be declared the NAF World Champion for four years is a pretty good incentive on its own....

Just my thoughts,
OMM

Old_Man_Monkey - Nov 15, 2006 - 07:01 AM
Post subject:

juergen wrote:

but you have to take care about scheduling. Players from each nations playing against each other shouldn't be possible because they take important points away - but then you can't avoid that completely.

not easy...

sorry.... I meant to include this in the above post:

I agree completely and we will look to construct the scheduling during the individual tournament with this in mind.

OMM

Grotuk - Nov 15, 2006 - 08:54 AM
Post subject:

OMM...the problem is if the teams are already fixed...somebody who is not on his national team is not going to play Geggster, Lucifer, Sputnik, Longshot, Dock Drak, Tarra, Kerrunch, Farina and some other of the Big European names that will be playing for their national team for sure...and it's going to be really really hard to play against an Aussie (cause i dont hope they can bring more than 8 players) or a north american.

If im not going to face this players...and i win the individual world cup..im gonna feel not completely the world champion. So many people will not attend for that reason (is like the always likely side tournament at the Eurobowl)...much money for a vainilla tourney.

In the other hand...if we do the first day qualifier (where the first 8 with different races qualify) a lot of people will attend and try to do his best for his nation. Maybe on the end...in the team tournament they will not be the usual 8 national players...but unless 4 will be for sure...but we'll get much more people for the individual tournament.

So what you prefer? Thats the real question.

In the other side...if the teams will be fixed...they would be the Eurobowl teams? Or the NAF TOs will choose a captain?

If its going to be "a really special tournament" we need to do it totally different and not just a Eurobowl+NorthAmerica+¿Aussies?+SideTournament.

Just my opinion.

Old_Man_Monkey - Nov 15, 2006 - 09:22 AM
Post subject:

What you seem to imply, Grotuk, is that only the national team members are the coaches 'worth' playing... which I will have to take exception to on face value.... Wink

But another point is:
In a tournament beyond a certain size there is no guarantee that you will play these aforemention 'uber' coaches anyway... it is always hit or miss. It may very well be that the third day of the competition will take the best of the team coaches and the best of the individual tournament and combine them in some way to determine an overall champion.

However, let me say from the outset. THIS IS NOT THE MOST IMPORTANT REASON TO ATTEND as far as I'm concerned. With the painting competition, the events being planned around the tournaments, and the overall excitemennt and comradarie, any coach should have a great time and enjoy the celebration of this crazy little game we all like so much...

Just my opinion, too... Very Happy

Grotuk - Nov 15, 2006 - 09:40 AM
Post subject:

Old_Man_Monkey wrote:

However, let me say from the outset. THIS IS NOT THE MOST IMPORTANT REASON TO ATTEND as far as I'm concerned. With the painting competition, the events being planned around the tournaments, and the overall excitemennt and comradarie, any coach should have a great time and enjoy the celebration of this crazy little game we all like so much...

Just my opinion, too... Very Happy

For you, and for me...and for some people yes...but i think that all the comunitty is not filled by dreamers like you and me.

About the coaches worth playing... i mean...that i want the WC become something like the BB GT where you face a lot of casual players that are so-so playing and most dont have the spirit of the comunity (you just need to check the Bugmans...with less than 50-60 coaches...when they are like 200 playing)...i dont want that in the WC.

I wanna be part of the biggest tournament in all the aspects.

Your proposition of make the third day open is someway fault...cause as some one explained earlier...if you are playing swiss style with a bad nation but you are good player...your chances to get many points at the end of the team tournament its higher than for a player that is playing with a top nation.

Indigo - Nov 15, 2006 - 11:05 AM
Post subject:

I think the point that many European coaches may not attend if they are not part of a perceived "team" is important and not to be ignored, irrespective of what we want the tourney to be perceived as.

Granted, playing for a national team is a unique experience, but I'd also argue that it's another experience altogether wishing your team mates on while they are still playing - just being in the room while games are going on is a superb experience, as each point is fought for.

I can also see the argument that we don't want simply a big "Blood Bowl" event (i.e. massive individual event) but also don't think a Eurobowl+others style one is a good solution. I still do think we can combine the two - an individual tournament where the best coaches points are used for team scores. Players ARE playing for their country - they get team shirts for example - whether their points are used or not. They get the experience of seeing just how well their country is doing, then at the end of the day, if luck is with them their points count - if not they have pride to compete for in the individual tournament. To me it seems like the best of both worlds.

Furthermore, it also allows for groups of players to construct their own "side" tournaments - for instance, the ECBBL league here in London could challenge one of the Dutch leagues to see which one of them performs best over the weekend.

Quite how an individual event should be organised still needs agreeing on though - maybe random draws are best so coaches have the chance of playing against truly varied opponents. Maybe seeded is best, but we have the time to discuss it at least.

Indigo - Nov 15, 2006 - 11:12 AM
Post subject:

TuernRedvenom wrote:

I disagree - I think coach skill is a MUCH bigger factor. For every England coach that gets super lucky there will probably be at least as many from other countries. For the vast majority of coaches, luck (and therefore points) will be average and decided on skill.

Quote:

I think eurobowl shows that competitivity en sportsmanship can go together. I enjoyed every game and everyone was very fair but also very competitive. Smile

That said, your idea is an option to keep everyone involved and interested, although personally I wouldn't like it (I prefer straight up 8 vs 8 or 6 vs 6).

Eurobowl is a special format that does work and does make it unique. But as a means of attracting MORE than 8 coaches from a given country to fly thousands of miles it doesn't - the event needs to make sure the coach feels like they are contributing as long as possible, then still reward them no matter the outcome. Basically, as I see it, running it Eurobowl style would make for a more accurate test of national skill, but wouldn't necessarily make it a big, fun event that makes a coach truly feel like they are part of BB history. Bear in mind - nothing like this will ever have been done before (even in WFB or 40k I'd argue) so I think the actual outcome of the event is entirely irrelevant compared to the actual hosting and experience of the event itself. This might sound a bit overly sentimental, but if the NAF were to collapse the day after the event and BB be consigned to the history books, at least we as a community can say we managed to get together and do something HUGE.

Yavatol - Nov 15, 2006 - 11:26 AM
Post subject:

Considering the heavy NAF involvement in this event and NAF policy to support only open tournaments. I think it is pivotal to come up with a concept that actually enables anybody who wants to invest the time and money to spend three days playing blood bowl in Nottingham to realy participate in the main event. For me this means that if the world bowl would be a team event then anybody should form teams as they see fit (be they nation or league based). Nobody could deny a team entrance. Would the world bowl be similar to the Eurobowl (but with an individual tournament as an add-on) I would not attend, whether I could secure a place on the Dutch squad or not, and I am pretty sure there are many others who would feel same.

Dave - Nov 15, 2006 - 11:47 AM
Post subject:

I think the problem with a first day qualify for a national side and then play in teams day 2/3 is that a country with many players attending (england comes to mind as the tourny is organized there) has a MUCH bigger chance of winning the thing. Assuming that all the players (be it 8 or 30) from each country together perform average (win 1.5 games) the chance that a country with 30 coaches has 8 players that won all their matches is much larger than the same chance for a country with 8 players.

I think the best way to go is to have a 2 day team event, with teams made by the NTO's / in another way to determine the best country. IF (and I think we should) there is an individual tournament next to this it could be over 9 rounds, so the players of the team competition can join in after round 6. This would give the high ranked players of BOTH events the chance to play against eachother and will thus result in a fair (good, rightfull, whatever) winner of the individual event.

Dave - Nov 15, 2006 - 11:49 AM
Post subject:

Also: As the tournament takes place instead of the Eurobowl: why change a well working format for the team competition??

Grotuk - Nov 15, 2006 - 12:08 PM
Post subject:

My proposal is to reset the points of the qualifies for team comp...unless we can find a solution that makes point equally valuable for a team with 8 players to another with 50.

Dave - Nov 15, 2006 - 12:13 PM
Post subject:

I assumed that would be happening, I was just stating my worries.

What I'll really, really miss is the team spirit that makes eurobowl so different from other tournaments. The shirts, songs etc etc

Old_Man_Monkey - Nov 15, 2006 - 01:27 PM
Post subject:

I would think you could re-tabulate each team member's result using the formula being used in the individual tournament: win-loss-draw-TD's for and against, CAS for and against... if it is true that the national team members are among a country's best players, the ones with the most wins from that group should have competitive scores that could then be put into the mix of scores for the individual tournament on the 3rd day.

It's just as random a draw, given the numbers of coachs, and would still allow for three games on the final day, which I believe might be as close as we could statistically get over three days to having the best scores going into each round....

Darkson - Nov 15, 2006 - 01:35 PM
Post subject:

Non-national teams might be a way to go. For example (and not saying we should let it in), but the NBA team could face the RCN team, and it would allow people that are unlikely to get on their national team to be part of the team mentality, and have a shot at winning the team WC.

Colin - Nov 15, 2006 - 05:03 PM
Post subject:

I had asked about non-national teams like the NBA when Brian was organising it and he had daid "no", I think I could get a Team NBA to participate if allowed. Wink

Xtreme - Nov 15, 2006 - 08:40 PM
Post subject:

I like Dave's ideas.

TuernRedvenom - Nov 16, 2006 - 01:16 AM
Post subject:

Indigo wrote:

Quite how an individual event should be organised still needs agreeing on though - maybe random draws are best so coaches have the chance of playing against truly varied opponents. Maybe seeded is best, but we have the time to discuss it at least.

Because the individual tourney has 3 days or 9 games, it might be interesting to make groups and do a round robin in it with, like in the footy world cup. Smile

This way you get more involved in how the other players in your group are performing which gets a little more involvement then Swiss.

Grotuk - Nov 16, 2006 - 01:17 AM
Post subject:

Dave wrote:

I assumed that would be happening, I was just stating my worries.

What I'll really, really miss is the team spirit that makes eurobowl so different from other tournaments. The shirts, songs etc etc

Why you think the team spirit is gonna miss? At the end...probably all the players from a country are going to wear national t-shirts etc..

Maybe you are specting that some kind of players who all we know... can qualify and destroy the spirit of some teams? Then...as im specting that each country is going to have X tickets to sell...use the NAF TO as filter. And if he thinks that some player doesnt deserve to play the WC....let him at home. Maybe a little bit dictatorial...but can work.

Yavatol - Nov 16, 2006 - 04:48 AM
Post subject:

Grotuk wrote:

And if he thinks that some player doesnt deserve to play the WC....let him at home. Maybe a little bit dictatorial...but can work.

A little bit too dictorial for my tastes. There is no way you can have a TO judge who is worthy and who is not on his personal whims.

Grotuk - Nov 16, 2006 - 06:09 AM
Post subject:

But he is able to judge who is on the National team and who is not?

Yavatol - Nov 16, 2006 - 06:57 AM
Post subject:

He has some authority to do it (being a NAF official). Other than that you would be turning the World into a populairity contest. He can never make a right descicion. Best not to put him in that position in the first place.

Grotuk - Nov 16, 2006 - 07:16 AM
Post subject:

Im in some way agree with you...but i still think that the National Teams compt is going to be the hardest part to solve.

I cant find any fair solution to cover all the aspects I (me myself, personal opinion, etc) will like to see solved in the WC: i.e. interesting for everybody either its on the national team or not, play diverse country players, national team have good relationship between each other (as this year EB)...

Rab - Nov 16, 2006 - 08:27 AM
Post subject:

I know suggestions like this have been made before, but I think that the best idea would be to organise teams in exactly the same way that most archery tournaments are run:

Top 6/8/27/whatever coaches from a country are their 1st team
Next set are the 2nd team etc.

This would allow all coaches the chance to boost their country's success, increasing the team element - what you do can count towards the result! Also, I do not see how this will advantage countries with a larger contingent. Despite my patriotic fervour, I wouldn't claim (well, not totally seriously Wink

) that all English coaches are worldbeaters.

If wanted, as well as a world tournament place for each coach and each team, the final national ranking should then be found from the placing of each country's 1st team.

This way, a coach can have a mediocre first day, then play a blinder and do his/her patriotic duty.

My two English pence. God save the Queen!

Kewan - Nov 16, 2006 - 11:26 AM
Post subject:

Grotuk wrote:

My idea is to make first day open, the 8 best players of each country goes to the Team tourney and the rest plays the individual tournament.

Just an idea.

The problem is that you are going to this tournament only with one idea, be a member of the Spanish Team, and then win the WC with Spain. I think that's not the spirit that spanish guys shows in every tournament we go. We are some friends who like play BB, shout a lot and drink beer, winning it`s not the essence of BB and you don't share this idea with us Wink

Grotuk wrote:

Why you think the team spirit is gonna miss? At the end...probably all the players from a country are going to wear national t-shirts etc.. .

When I've read this, a question has come to my head. Do you ever understand the meaning of team spirit? you really think that making a qualifying test during the first day of competition, the team spirit remains. I understand you want to play this tournament, but I think you are looking only for your own benefit, not for improving the WC.

Old_Man_Monkey wrote:

What you seem to imply, Grotuk, is that only the national team members are the coaches 'worth' playing... which I will have to take exception to on face value.... Wink

However, let me say from the outset. THIS IS NOT THE MOST IMPORTANT REASON TO ATTEND as far as I'm concerned.
Just my opinion, too... Very Happy

Completely agree Wink

Kewan - Nov 16, 2006 - 11:38 AM
Post subject:

Grotuk wrote:

Then...as im specting that each country is going to have X tickets to sell...use the NAF TO as filter. And if he thinks that some player doesnt deserve to play the WC....let him at home. Maybe a little bit dictatorial...but can work.

You want that some NAF TO will be killed, I'm sure of this Cool

One question, if your NAF TO thinks you don't deserve to play the WC, are you going to be agree with him, without demanding an explanation?

Grotuk - Nov 16, 2006 - 01:34 PM
Post subject:

I cant go...so all your topics are meaningless. Wink

Kewan - Nov 17, 2006 - 02:55 AM
Post subject:

Grotuk wrote:

I cant go...so all your topics are meaningless. Wink

We'll see my friend Laughing

Hangus - Nov 17, 2006 - 10:17 AM
Post subject:

Grotuk wrote:

But he is able to judge who is on the National team and who is not?

might be a lot of pressure on him and he may get lot of emails saying pick me pick me, but if all them got together to choose i think taht would be fairer.

Hangus - Nov 17, 2006 - 12:01 PM
Post subject:

heres an idea for the format to be ripped to shreds:

Friday- team event / some specialist game ie beach bowl (4 games)
Saturday- Open event with everyone playing (3 games)/ 5th game of team event / talk or speed painting or something for the others.
Sunday- Open event continued (3 games) and results.

It means we have winners for Open, team, and specialist as well as the usual stuff (painting, cas, tds etc)

Longshot - Nov 17, 2006 - 01:27 PM
Post subject:

My 2 cents.

WC should be a big event in many ways.
Friends, Meetings, Painting, Nation Team, IndividualS tournamentS.

I second Bevan's and OMM idea in the schedule of individual tourny and Team tourny:
first 2 days : in the same time and last day , everydody injected in the individual tourny.
other tournaments Beach Bowl, Street Bowl, Rat Ogre Bowl and so on should be nice too.
Painting should be a great moment too.

Since 4/5 years now, i am trying to get more and more people involved in tounies, and sidely in NAF (could never force people)
BUT i always saw Eurobowl as one of the concept i can work on it to get French community a bit more involved.
We have a French Forum about the Team... and since the last Eurobowl, there is a lot of discussions.
The Main point is the World Cup with a lot of projects some of us want to realize.
-having a lot of French coming for several reasons:
-Cheering and enjoy
-Painting
-Single tournament
-Nation Tournament.

i am not even sure for now that i will still lead the Team (even if i hope of course)
Well that said... each country is having his own community and i guess a lot of discussion also about nation Team...
I guess, most of the Captain will understand what i mean saying that killing the Nation Team (eurobowl system) will may be be a devastating shock for us ... our work (not only about the team-even if we are not perfect) and our credibility.
If you do a Nation tournament day 2/3 based on individual tourny day 1... what are we supposed to say or try to say next year for Eurobowl in Spain?
I am not saying that We are dictators or wisest than anybody... but i think that will be a hard for us. Killing the captains?

Here is my point, if you only do a open individual tournament, fine. If you do a Nation Team tourny, please let each nation decide as we do for Eurobowl.

Longshot - Nov 17, 2006 - 01:31 PM
Post subject:

I also like the Idea of Hangus running several tournies...

the best thing would be... playing all the Finals in the Sunday Smile

Ad by the way, i think each player of a nation Team will not bother not playing for individual! There are already a part of the WC.

Longshot - Nov 17, 2006 - 01:57 PM
Post subject:

just some thoughs after reading some post:

-A good player could have 6 points on nation team contest even if his team dont do well... hungary last Eurobowl.

-any Nation could win the Nation team without having players with 6 points (Belgium wasnt so far away from the tile last Eurobowl)

I am taking last Eurobowl as an example cos it is fresh in my memories but i think we can find also that in the others Eurobowls cos this is not a swiss style. (we can discuss that too for nation tourny.. but later)

-any league and any confederation could still have a challenge together:
At RDV BB4, we made a team contest of 3 players added to the individual contest. Players from Nations Teams could or could not (matter of taste) not be involved in it even if players continue in the individual tourny. The biggest problem in that organisation is only make sure people from a same league or Clan dont play each other.. i guess computers can solve that.

-A player running good during the 2firsts day of individual tourny should felt robbed by playing some of the best performers of Nation Team during the last 3 games? I guess not
-Tie breaker used for individual tournaments could be count during team tournament too... event if it only counts when the player is playing on third day for individual one.

I dont think NTO should be killed too. It is a part of each country Job to sort out those kind of things well. Naf is not a diktat but only (hopefully and happily) here to organise and get people together.
Team spirit will remains a country problem, if some guys dont like the way it is dealt in their own country, i dont think naf should be involved in this pride stuff.

'Be a part of It, that's it! ' =>(good add no ?)

Glorian_Underhill - Nov 18, 2006 - 07:35 AM
Post subject:

I second that.

Keep what has made the Eurobowl one of the best tourneys there are. The firm teams that show up. Also what about the trikots/t-shirts. One of the greatest things is when the squads show up in their colors. How would you make this when on day 1 no one knows if he will play?

Look at the pictures of this years EB at TBB and you will see that this was the very spirit of EB to see where a player belongs to.

I dont say the WC is an expanded EB but just keep the very idea of it.
Firm Teams, Spirit, and T-shirts. Very Happy

Mordredd - Nov 18, 2006 - 08:10 AM
Post subject:

Glorian Underhill wrote:

One of the greatest things is when the squads show up in their colors. How would you make this when on day 1 no one knows if he will play?

That one at least is pretty easy. Make everyone declare a country of allegiance when they buy their ticket and have a national t-shirt included in the price of admission. And then ask/tell everyone who attends to wear it.

And if you want to make a distinction between those who make the team and those who don't you could hand out arm bands or badges to the lucky few.

Hangus - Nov 18, 2006 - 08:17 AM
Post subject:

Mordredd wrote:

Glorian Underhill wrote:

One of the greatest things is when the squads show up in their colors. How would you make this when on day 1 no one knows if he will play?

decent idea but speaking as someone who sorted his cricket teams shirts, its a) quite expensive (it worked out at about 18-19 quid per shirt)
b) Sizes can be a problem, i ordered 17 and was lucky and only one person got his size wrong which from what i understand happens quite easily.

Armbands all around may be better

Joemanji - Nov 18, 2006 - 11:58 AM
Post subject:

Or silly hats. Very Happy

Hangus - Nov 18, 2006 - 02:16 PM
Post subject:

Nazgit wrote:

Or silly hats. Very Happy

what a team of hoomins? Very Happy

EvilGit - Nov 18, 2006 - 04:09 PM
Post subject:

unfotunately hoomin's already taken to wearing silly skirts as you lot would call them Wink

Aramil - Nov 18, 2006 - 05:05 PM
Post subject:

I personally support the Eurobowl style.

Is it a national team World Cup or a second Bloodbowl with a Team Competition inserted in?

In order to have side-games tourneys we can arrange the team event with 2 games the first day, 2 games the second and 3 the third with small tourneys in the afternoon/night of day 1 and 2... but the core fact of all this event is the national team competition, so let's keep it as it's working since 4 years, becouse every edition is getting bigger, stronger and always better to be part of it (at least IMHO).

- 1 team per nation
- 8 players per team
- random draw (even if I would like a swiss pairing at least on day 3)
- no double races inside the team
and so on...

Longshot - Nov 18, 2006 - 08:09 PM
Post subject:

I would only say that substitutes are a good thing for some nationnal team.
France will sort 10 players i guess (8+2) like in England last year.

Podfrey - Nov 19, 2006 - 05:39 AM
Post subject: Concerns

For me there are a couple of reasons why I'm not 100% convinced over the World Cup as it stands:

1) I personally do not want to see Eurobowl replaced with "Eurobowl + 1 Rest of the World Team". For me, the raison d'etre of the World Cup should be to have at least 3 non-European competing sides to be valid. If it was "Eurobowl + 1 Rest of the World Team" then why don't we hold Eurobowl as normal in Spain in 2007 and invite an American/RotW Team to attend (with the obvious proviso that the tournament would not be hosted by them if they won). The "Euro" bit of Eurobowl could stand for where it's held; not necessarily its participants.

2) The format, so far the major sticking point, should be unique AND should be the first thing announced, not the last. Once this has been decided, then country should be next and finally date and venue. It seems to me that everything's been done back to front.

3) All nations should have a fair and equal chance of challenging/winning.

As it has now been over 6 months since the World Cup was announced, and it's proposed date is less than 12 months away, I am worried by not seeing a lot of firm ideas about what it is supposed to be. Given that Australasia/New World players have indicated a minimum of 12 months notice it may be worth considering delaying the World Cup until later (early-mid 2008) and spending the next couple of months thrashing out the best ideas for a format without the pressure of a looming deadline.

Darkson - Nov 19, 2006 - 08:33 AM
Post subject:

Aramil wrote:

Is it a national team World Cup or a second Bloodbowl with a Team Competition inserted in?

If it's the first, where's the encouragement for non-team members to come, especially if the teams are pre-decided?

However, a normal BB tourney with a team comp tacked on doesn't sound that inspiring either.

Aramil - Nov 19, 2006 - 09:22 AM
Post subject:

Darkson wrote:

Aramil wrote:

Is it a national team World Cup or a second Bloodbowl with a Team Competition inserted in?

If it's the first, where's the encouragement for non-team members to come, especially if the teams are pre-decided?

We must take a decision, now:

THE WORLD CUP MAIN AIM IS ABOUT SOCIALISING?

Then people should come independently if they're going to play or not.

no BB matches at all

my best

ever

THE WORLD CUP MAIN AIM IS ONLY ABOUT PLAYING BB MATCHES?

Then why are we talking about a team competition?

If you want to do something or people coming to see the World Cup even if they're nothing playing in their nation national team, just run some small side tournaments and/or a conference with JJ and the BB miniatures sculptors... that's enought! Wink

The core part of the Wolrd Cup shoul be, in my opinion, the World Cup itself, a national teams competition.
If people still needs a reason to be at this type ou tournaments other than living that wounderful atmosphere, then I would prefere them to stay home.

Sorry for my straight talking, but I think we should decide what we want to do with this tournament. Here in Italy people is already thinking about the World Cup, they're discussing (about nothing, obviously... since nothing has been decided) about it, how to choose players, how to organize in order to come to support the team and so on... so I think we should decide what street we want to ride.

After having done so, we can discuss if having 8 players it's ok or maybe 6 to make things easier for people from other continents... if national jerseys are better than national cardigans... if Bugman's Beeer is good or not... I don't Know. But a basic decision must be taken, whatever it is. Smile

Mordredd - Nov 19, 2006 - 12:30 PM
Post subject:

You say that like playing the game and socialising are totally discrete and separate aims, or that one should take priority over the other. I personally have been viewing the 'main aim' of the world cup as being to socialise over a game of BB in a tournament that brings together as many coaches from around the world as possible. Maybe I'm wrong and the organisers are after something different or more limited but that's what I see; and what I want out of this event.

And whilst the prospect of paying large amounts of money to attend a tournament and just watch is fine for a very very very limited few (I did it last year when team Scotland collapsed at the last minute and it was fine, but I really wouldn't want to do it again) for the overwhelming majority of coaches no game time = no attendance. And I want those people to attend, because otherwise there's only going to be around 100 coaches there (and that's probably assuming that the 3 non-European sides manage to get there).

EvilGit - Nov 19, 2006 - 12:56 PM
Post subject:

the way i see it is that there should be a stand alone team event. one team per country with each participant each having a different race organised however you want it to be organised.

now the question is what to do with everyone else. do you then try and set up another team event? run in a similar way? maybe have groups of teams together who then proceed into some kind of final? do you keep it individual and have a proper reason for going i.e super smashing great prizes that are very much out of the ordinary for normal competitions?

you have to make it worth people's time and effort to enter the second competition if they're not selected for their country. you want to make it different then a seperate team tourney may be the way to go. have say 4 teams in each group who all play each other once on the first day. second day they play say one team from other groups. the top ranked 8 go into a quarter finals where 1 plays 8 2 plays 7 etc. winners then progress to semi's and finals.

that way everyone has the chance to play in something different, it would give people the chance to meet new people and strike up new friendships and there would be the kudos of being the world club champions (ok i made that up but it's not a bad name for it)

well that's what i reckon anyway.

Bevan - Nov 19, 2006 - 01:13 PM
Post subject: Re: Concerns

Lucifer wrote:

1) I personally do not want to see Eurobowl replaced with "Eurobowl + 1 Rest of the World Team". For me, the raison d'etre of the World Cup should be to have at least 3 non-European competing sides to be valid. If it was "Eurobowl + 1 Rest of the World Team" then why don't we hold Eurobowl as normal in Spain in 2007 and invite an American/RotW Team to attend (with the obvious proviso that the tournament would not be hosted by them if they won). The "Euro" bit of Eurobowl could stand for where it's held; not necessarily its participants.

I like the idea of inviting non-European countries to Eurobowl. If you make it quite clear now that they are welcome you would probably get a USA or Canadian team at the next event and possibly even an Australian team from time to time - probably not every year, unless we rotate different coaches each time.

In this case the World Cup needs to be not just an alternate Eurobowl and not just an alternate individual event. Maybe the best option is to keep the idea of a teams event but throw it open to any teams from anywhere.

There might be 5 teams representing regions or cities in England, 2 or 3 form most European countries and 1 or 2 each from USA, Canada and Australia. If some countries cannot make up a team they could combine with a nearby country. This is already likely with Australia + New Zealand, but if not enough Australians can make this one then they could get together with Canadians, Mexico, Asia, Africa etc for a Rest-of-the-World team.

There would need to be a limit on the number of teams from any one country (5?) but that would allow the existing Eurobowl teams to stay together while others from those countries also had the right to play.

EvilGit - Nov 19, 2006 - 01:39 PM
Post subject:

so basically like a world club championship where mates get teams together from any source?

Old_Man_Monkey - Nov 19, 2006 - 02:05 PM
Post subject:

This idea is still in the hopper - do you feel like those coaches who may want to come but not know enough to form a team, will then be comfortable playing on a team that is formed upon arrival?

Old_Man_Monkey - Nov 19, 2006 - 02:57 PM
Post subject: Re: Concerns

Lucifer wrote:

Looking past the first tournament, I would agree, Lucifer, and hope that more of the rest of the world will attend a World Cup. But the NAF as an international group must by default declare whatever event it chooses to run open to the world, lest it be seen as favoring one region over another.
I don't see how Spain loses, as first honorary hosts of the World Cup then defacto hosts the next Eurobowl.
There will never be a guarantee for the number of teams attending from any one country or region and the NAF needs to begin somewhere. While we could certainly postpone the event, I'm not sure there are such a great variety of formats that will suit the needs of the World Cup and I believe the format can be settled pretty quickly.

Lucifer wrote:

2) The format, so far the major sticking point, should be unique AND should be the first thing announced, not the last. Once this has been decided, then country should be next and finally date and venue. It seems to me that everything's been done back to front.

The loudest screams by far were for "dates" and "place" rather than "ruleset" and I agree - as far as personal planning goes, I'd much rather know when and where because I know no matter the specific ruleset or format, I'm going to have a good time seeing friends, making new ones, and taking in the atmosphere. While I agree the format should be unique and probably in retrospect should have been the discussion for the past weeks and months, we are now here, with all things still possible and attainable.

Lucifer wrote:

3) All nations should have a fair and equal chance of challenging/winning.

Assuming that the World Cup is even a competition among only nations of this real world. Imagine for a moment an open team competition with teams not only from modern day Europe but Brettonion, or Skaven Clan teams or whatever team 6 or 8 coaches decide to form! Anything is still possible but speaking to what I think is your central point: all TEAMS should have a fair and equal chance of challenging and winning.

Lucifer wrote:

As it has now been over 6 months since the World Cup was announced, and it's proposed date is less than 12 months away, I am worried by not seeing a lot of firm ideas about what it is supposed to be. Given that Australasia/New World players have indicated a minimum of 12 months notice it may be worth considering delaying the World Cup until later (early-mid 2008) and spending the next couple of months thrashing out the best ideas for a format without the pressure of a looming deadline.

As mentioned above, I regret the lost time but now we have place, now we have time, and I think the pressure of a deadline serves to force discusssion and decision. I see that Mordredd has created a poll on TBB, and there are many posting here on the forum - now can be that time for thrashing out what will please the greatest number....

Good post GP... I appreciate your thoughts and concur in many ways...

Bevan - Nov 19, 2006 - 03:11 PM
Post subject:

Old_Man_Monkey wrote:

This idea is still in the hopper - do you feel like those coaches who may want to come but not know enough to form a team, will then be comfortable playing on a team that is formed upon arrival?

It should be possible to organise everyone into a team well in advance, although (based on some reports from Eurobowl) we will need a few locals who can fill in for any team that has members missing at the last minute.

I wouldn't want to encourage anyone to travel from outside Europe in the hope that they get on some Mongrel Horde team on the day. However, if we have coordinators for each region then it should be clear well in advance which countries have some interested members but not enough to make a team, or if some have a few spares left over. If they can get in contact with each other they will have several months to choose a captain, pick a team theme, decide a team name, coach uniform, player paint scheme, team song and anything else to get a team spirit going. You won't get the same team spirit (let alone team uniforms and colours) by waiting until the day of the event.

This might mean, for example, that I only decide to go if Zombie from Canada also wants to go, and that neither of us has any other team to go with, so it would take a few months to sort out these combined teams.

Darkson - Nov 20, 2006 - 02:09 AM
Post subject:

Aramil wrote:

Last year I was in Liverpool and I played no BB matches at all... but I still remember it as my best BB tournament ever!
Eurobowl as it is now IS about socialising.. and if you want it this way, why changing something that works perfectly?

But we're not talking about a few Euros spending a couple of hundred pounds each to attend, we're talking about trying to get US/Canada/Oz/ROTW to attend, possibly running into the thousands of pounds to attend, and looking into the future, the same amount of money spend by Euros to attend tourneys in the US/Canada/Oz/somewhere else in the world. Apart from those pre-selected for (as an example) Team US, can you honestly expect that many US to drop that sort of money just to pop over, and possibly not even play in an event that has any relevence?

Looking at it from the opposite direction, say in 2011 the event is held in the US. It's going to cost me (example) £1000 to attend, and I'm not in team England, so I don't get to play. I'd rather save the money (assuming I had it), and attend a "proper" US tourney (GenCon, Chaos Cup, a Canadian tourney).

If we want lots of ROTW (for want of a better label) coaches to attend then we need to make it worth their while, not just make it for a select few, and make the rest hangers-on.

EvilGit - Nov 20, 2006 - 02:12 AM
Post subject:

Old_Man_Monkey wrote:

This idea is still in the hopper - do you feel like those coaches who may want to come but not know enough to form a team, will then be comfortable playing on a team that is formed upon arrival?

OMM

i certainly don't see why not, especially if they're in groups of say 2 or 3 forming teams together. that way they still have their comfortable zone for want of a better term playing with their mates but also the chance of meeting new people and sparking off new friendships. hell everyone i've met through bb have been fine upstanding members of society, well alright most of them Wink

OldManDraco - Nov 20, 2006 - 02:49 AM
Post subject:

Maybe a stupid idea, but none the less.

Most people seem to want teams of 8 persons.

Everybody would like to play in the team event so....

Let UK form 10 teams of 8 and Holland 3 teams of 8 etc, etc
Let the "rest"be in a "rest" team.

First two days have the teams play against each other.
Last day have the best 8 Nation teams enter the final day and the rest will enjoy Death Bowl, Street Bowl or whatever.

Best team will win the team Cup. Best player will be the one with most points after all days out of all players.

Ergo: almost everybody gets to play in a team belonging to their Nation.
everybody has a chance to win the team cup and the individual tournament.

Sidenote: You need to make sure all games will last as long as the others or you will have schedule problems. Streetbowl takes less time than a normal game of BB and with Dungeonbowl you never know how long a game will last.

My two cents.

Emberbreeze - Nov 20, 2006 - 07:15 AM
Post subject:

Rather than post this again

http://www.talkbloodbowl.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=18709&start=339

best of both worlds?

GalakStarscraper - Jan 02, 2007 - 10:48 AM
Post subject:

Deathwing ...

I'm hoping we could see the World Cup format and rules within the next couple weeks ... is that possible.

I know myself and many of those that discuss BB with me want the World Cup to be a "must attend" event ... so I'm hoping the rules and format can be provided soon.

Galak

Deathwing - Jan 03, 2007 - 10:38 AM
Post subject:

GalakStarscraper wrote:

Tom,
I intended to have rules/format posted by the New Year, but **** happens as they say. I did find some time over the holiday period though, and it's actually about there. Expect it within the next coupla days rather than weeks.

Darkson - Feb 18, 2007 - 02:07 PM
Post subject:

Would it be possible to get some NAF merchandise in frpm Cafepress? The WC seems like an ideal time to buy some, but the shipping on the few items I want put me off. I sure with a (hopefully!) couple of hundred NAF members in one place we could shift a few t-shirts etc.

Old_Man_Monkey - Feb 19, 2007 - 11:27 AM
Post subject:

I believe that is in the works, as part of the vendor room at the 'official' hotel (as yet undetermined but nearly there....!)
As I remember, 'Air Jordell' caps and NAF patches, long awaited accoutrements by some of the members, will at last make an apprearance...