NAF World Headquarters
General - Cash prizes at NAF-sanctioned tournaments. Yes or No?
Old_Man_Monkey - Feb 20, 2007 - 05:59 AM
Post subject: Cash prizes at NAF-sanctioned tournaments. Yes or No?
An old but relevant question arose among the NAF staff during World Cup discussions: If a Tournamnet Organizer offers cash prizes as part of their tournament submission, should the NAF approve such a tourney i.e., should the offering of money be banned or approved, from the NAF tournament scene?
Traditionally, cash prizes have been discouraged but it is an important issue and one the membership should ultimately decide. So for your discussion and voting, the following poll.
Spazzfist - Feb 20, 2007 - 07:06 AM
Post subject: RE: Cash prizes at NAF-sanctioned tournaments. Yes or No?
I would hate to see tourneys go this route. When money becomes involved then things get much more serious. Incidents of cheating (supposed or genuine) become a much more serious issue, and to my mind a lot of fun would be taken out of the game.
I go to the tourneys because I enjoy meeting with old friends and playing the game I love. I would hate to think that other people would go to tourneys only for the lure of money.
lauth81 - Feb 20, 2007 - 07:39 AM
Post subject: RE: Cash prizes at NAF-sanctioned tournaments. Yes or No?
no cash prizes!
I like tourneys to have giveaways for everybody, not cash prizes for making places 1, 2, 3 ...
nyarlathotep - Feb 20, 2007 - 07:53 AM
Post subject: RE: Cash prizes at NAF-sanctioned tournaments. Yes or No?
I would not like to see cash prizes.
bampf - Feb 20, 2007 - 01:42 PM
Post subject: RE: Cash prizes at NAF-sanctioned tournaments. Yes or No?
It s funny, many tourneys give painted teams or rare minis as prizes. All of which can be quickly turned to cash with a few clicks on eBay, but there s just a whole different feel about giving an actual cash prize. I emphatically vote No on cash prizes even though the difference is almost semantic. It just changes the whole feel of the environment... would make things seems so much more... mercenary.
Clan_Skaven - Feb 20, 2007 - 01:56 PM
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I hear what bampf is saying, I myself voted the 3rd option...
Leave up to the tourney Orginisor to decide if he wants to shell out cash or not.
But I see what Spazz is saying as well, there has been debates on people using crooked dice & bending of rules & so on. So I could see some people removing the fun from the game ^& playing just for the cash.
But should the NAF not approve a Tourney where the Organisor had Cash prizes, my answer is no. As long as all the criteria of the rules were legit then why ban a tourney cause of the prizes.
Just remember those Skink Cheerleaders & Resurection Gutter Runners go for a pretty penny on ebay.
So if I win $50 for winning a tourney that gets banned by NAF for having cash prizes , but make $150 from ebay off of a mini I won at an approved NAF tourney for not having cash prizes, tell me wheres the logic?
Rod
GalakStarscraper - Feb 20, 2007 - 02:52 PM
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I agree with Rod.
I don't think the NAF should specifically encourage or not encourage this format. Ebay makes many of the items given at touranments very easy to convert to cash ... and I've often been guilty of cash conversions of items from events.
I will be up front that I have a slanted view on this. I had planned for the South Bend Slaughter, Street Party, and GenCon Bowl this year to give away Impact! gift certificates as we'll have fully stocked stores at each event. So while I could easily give out minis only for these events ... I liked the idea of giving out gift certificates.
Tom
Colin - Feb 20, 2007 - 04:58 PM
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I don't really consider gift certificates the same as cash, they are only redeemable at one place or for certain things. Giving away cash is kind of lazy, if you have the cash, go out and buy some prizes.
angryrob - Feb 20, 2007 - 07:59 PM
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its nice to have the prize suit the game, so unless you're going to give 40 or 50k for winning a match, i'd rather just get some minis 
who an i kidding i have not won jack at a tourney, i cant even win the respect of my peers
Deathwing - Feb 21, 2007 - 03:32 AM
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Galak, we're talking about cold hard cash here as opposed to vouchers/gift certificates (which are, I agree with Torg, a different thing altogether).
I think Rod's got the crux of it, obviously any prizes given away are going to have some sort of monetary value which the recipient could always turn into cash (via ebay or whatever) if he or she so desires, but what we're trying to establish here is the how the membership feels about the difference between that and winning a cash prize directly.
Speaking purely as a coach, I personally see it as significant.
GalakStarscraper - Feb 21, 2007 - 05:53 AM
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Deathwing wrote:
Galak, we're talking about cold hard cash here as opposed to vouchers/gift certificates (which are, I agree with Torg, a different thing altogether)..
Okay if they are different ... then I switch my vote to not endorsing them. I agree with the comment if you have the cash ... spend it on prizes which support the Hobby.
Honestly spending the cash with GW, Shadowforge, Tritex, or Impact! to get some cool stuff (and we do work out deals with tournaments so they can purchase cool stuff at a discount) is a much better way to keep the hobby alive and would be the option I would encourage.
Galak
Spazzfist - Feb 21, 2007 - 05:56 AM
Post subject:
GalakStarscraper wrote:
Honestly spending the cash with GW, Shadowforge, Tritex, or Impact! to get some cool stuff (and we do work out deals with tournaments so they can purchase cool stuff at a discount) is a much better way to keep the hobby alive and would be the option I would encourage.
I highly agree with this point. Cash can be spent anywhere, and while the gift certificate amy have a dollar value, at least this way you are trying to ensure that the focus is on promoting the hobby.
Notorious_jtb - Feb 21, 2007 - 06:35 AM
Post subject:
angryrob wrote:
its nice to have the prize suit the game, so unless you're going to give 40 or 50k for winning a match, i'd rather just get some minis
who an i kidding i have not won jack at a tourney, i cant even win the respect of my peers
I respect you rob
I agree with the general consensus about giving prizes not cash. It just feels so much better.
Although I am for freedom in general so I would not want to ban someone for offering cold hard cash, it just wouldn't excite me much. As I can find reasons not to buy models, but winning them, thats ok 
galakstarscraper wrote:
Honestly spending the cash with GW, Shadowforge, Tritex, or Impact! to get some cool stuff (and we do work out deals with tournaments so they can purchase cool stuff at a discount)
I Like the sound of this "deals" concept, we should chat about prizes for Deathbowl V: The Year of the Ogre. Are you tought enough?
Joe
Spazzfist - Feb 21, 2007 - 06:59 AM
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Notorious_jtb wrote:
I Like the sound of this "deals" concept, we should chat about prizes for Deathbowl V: The Year of the Ogre. Are you tought enough?
I dunno about Galak, but I'm plenty "tought"! 
GalakStarscraper - Feb 21, 2007 - 07:08 AM
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Notorious_jtb wrote:
galakstarscraper wrote:
Honestly spending the cash with GW, Shadowforge, Tritex, or Impact! to get some cool stuff (and we do work out deals with tournaments so they can purchase cool stuff at a discount)
I Like the sound of this "deals" concept, we should chat about prizes for Deathbowl V: The Year of the Ogre. Are you tought enough?
Joe
Galak
Clan_Skaven - Feb 21, 2007 - 08:02 AM
Post subject:
I myself would rather see mini's or other prizes over cash as well, but if for whatever reason a coach was to have cash as a prize at a tourney, I do not think his tourney should be banned from the NAF. (if those of us do not like the idea of playing in a cash prize tourney then don't go to it, but don't screw it for others that may want to go for that reason)
I have toyed with the idea that a dollar from everyone's entry fee goes to a side pot & the 1st person in the tourney to roll a a triple skull gets the pot, but thats not a huge amount, 16 coaches $16.00
More on the orriginal question, lets not tell coaches how to run a tourney (I like the idea that different tourneys have different flavor, (chocolate icecream is great, but once in awhile a scoop of vanilla is a nice change))
just my 2 cents , Rod.
Spazzfist - Feb 21, 2007 - 08:26 AM
Post subject:
Clan-Skaven wrote:
More on the orriginal question, lets not tell coaches how to run a tourney (I like the idea that different tourneys have different flavor, (chocolate icecream is great, but once in awhile a scoop of vanilla is a nice change))
just my 2 cents , Rod.
I undestand youe metaphor, but when tourneys offer so many different flavours, one should not have to settle for vanilla. There are enough ways to run a tourney without having to spoil the event with cash prizes.
BTW - when someone gives their "two cents", but it is only "a penny for your thoughts" where does the extra money go?
Notorious_jtb - Feb 21, 2007 - 10:09 AM
Post subject:
Spazzfist wrote:
Notorious_jtb wrote:
I Like the sound of this "deals" concept, we should chat about prizes for Deathbowl V: The Year of the Ogre. Are you tought enough?
I dunno about Galak, but I'm plenty "tought"!
sigh, and I try so hard 
Obviously I'm not tought enough.
Darkson - Feb 21, 2007 - 10:55 AM
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Flat out "NO" from me.
Imo, as soon as you start offering cash (mini's and certificates are different to my mind), a lot of the fun goes out of a tournament, which is the major reason I attend tourneys in the first place.
I also feel that if you start offering cash, more of the rules-lawyers will come out of the woodwork.
So personally, I don't think the NAF should authorise one, but if they did, I for one wouldn't even consider attending.
Clan_Skaven - Feb 21, 2007 - 11:08 AM
Post subject:
Spazzfist wrote:
Clan-Skaven wrote:
More on the orriginal question, lets not tell coaches how to run a tourney (I like the idea that different tourneys have different flavor, (chocolate icecream is great, but once in awhile a scoop of vanilla is a nice change))
just my 2 cents , Rod.
I undestand youe metaphor, but when tourneys offer so many different flavours, one should not have to settle for vanilla. There are enough ways to run a tourney without having to spoil the event with cash prizes.
BTW - when someone gives their "two cents", but it is only "a penny for your thoughts" where does the extra money go?
Man you missed the entire point entirely.... Do you even read the posts at all?
How is it spoiling the tournament if the people involved want or prefer that for prizes, if it is desired let those people be & have it. It is not for me or you or whoever to say how others run tourneys or what kind of tourneys some may like when it comes to cash prizes.
Even if the majority of NAF users do not like the idea of cash prize tourneys, (& if only a few would prefer to have such a tourney) I do not think NAF, myself, or anyone else should tell them thier tourney can not be NAF approved untill they drop the cash prizes.
Whats next? Telling coaches that thier tourney can not be NAF approved unless only GW gameboards are used (no custom pitches) ????
& no I'm not suggesting that, I'm just using that as an example.....
Classic example, I despise BB 7's & hate it in tourneys, but am I saying that tourney's with BB 7's rounds should not be NAF approved? NO I'm not.
Just cause you do not like a diferent structure or format or prize/cash awards, does not give you or anyone the right to tell others that if they do it that way it won't be approved.
So fine , NAF don't promote a cash prize system (fair enuff) but do not forbid it either if thats what others want (no matter how many they are)
Rod
Clan_Skaven - Feb 21, 2007 - 11:14 AM
Post subject:
Darkson wrote:
So personally, I don't think the NAF should authorise one, but if they did, I for one wouldn't even consider attending.
Thats fine & I understand what you mean , myself personally I probably would not either, but the point I'm trying to make is, if others want that (tourney organisor's & attending Coahes) then how does it hurt those who chose not to attend? (It doesn't)
I really do not think you will see that many anyway (judging by the poll results) , but for those that would want cash prizes in a tourney should not be punnished because others disaprove.
Rod
longfang - Feb 21, 2007 - 11:58 AM
Post subject:
Naf sanctioning is more aimed at tournements which will encourage players to behave within the spirit of the game. A cash prize or voucher the value of a few figs or team probably isn't going to threaten the way the players act but a large cash prize will attract certain types of people to take up the game. What needs to be avoided are situations where rules are argued over and the game is played in an unsporting or unenjoyable way. Can you imagine a final played where the winner gets say £100, to some people winning that will be important, to others it won't as being a Tourney winner will be more important. What if one coach says "you can have 75% of the winnings if I can win the tourny". Large cash prizes are not the way to go if you want to keep the tourny scene as enjoable as it is today.
Spazzfist - Feb 21, 2007 - 12:16 PM
Post subject:
Clan-Skaven wrote:
Man you missed the entire point entirely.... Do you even read the posts at all?
Charming as ever.... 
Yeah, I read your posts, for what they are worth. A lot of blah blah blah! 
But my point was (which you obviously chose to ignore) is that there are so many possibilities for running a tourney, that we should not have to even consider cash prizes. Cash prizes do not promote the hobby or give a different version of the game. 7's and custom boards do. So as usual, your arguments are invalid. 
Clan_Skaven - Feb 21, 2007 - 01:10 PM
Post subject:
Spazzfist wrote:
Clan-Skaven wrote:
Man you missed the entire point entirely.... Do you even read the posts at all?
Charming as ever....
Yeah, I read your posts, for what they are worth. A lot of blah blah blah!
But my point was (which you obviously chose to ignore) is that there are so many possibilities for running a tourney, that we should not have to even consider cash prizes. Cash prizes do not promote the hobby or give a different version of the game. 7's and custom boards do. So as usual, your arguments are invalid.
Invalid??? your "CENSORED"!!!
Clan_Skaven - Feb 21, 2007 - 01:13 PM
Post subject:
longfang wrote:
Naf sanctioning is more aimed at tournements which will encourage players to behave within the spirit of the game. A cash prize or voucher the value of a few figs or team probably isn't going to threaten the way the players act but a large cash prize will attract certain types of people to take up the game. What needs to be avoided are situations where rules are argued over and the game is played in an unsporting or unenjoyable way. Can you imagine a final played where the winner gets say £100, to some people winning that will be important, to others it won't as being a Tourney winner will be more important. What if one coach says "you can have 75% of the winnings if I can win the tourny". Large cash prizes are not the way to go if you want to keep the tourny scene as enjoable as it is today.
I see what you are saying, but I just cant see how if a group is ok with how the prize system is & everyone who goes knows that it will be that way. If they are all in agreeance that thats how they want THIER tourney, then who are we to say it's wrong?
Rod
angryrob - Feb 21, 2007 - 01:24 PM
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I voted no because with certain rules(ie. cocked dice, annoucing actions, etc) it would be a nightmare. mind you i can be a real rules nazi if i need to be.
In a tournament setting it would not work well in my opinion, to many different types of people for a serious cash based game. cash makes people crazy and i'd hate to see a bloodbowl tourney end with people "throwing hands" instead of throwing dice.
if you want a money game play poker.
Clan_Skaven - Feb 21, 2007 - 01:25 PM
Post subject:
Spazzfist wrote:
Clan-Skaven wrote:
Man you missed the entire point entirely.... Do you even read the posts at all?
Charming as ever....
Yeah, I read your posts, for what they are worth. A lot of blah blah blah!
But my point was (which you obviously chose to ignore) is that there are so many possibilities for running a tourney, that we should not have to even consider cash prizes. Cash prizes do not promote the hobby or give a different version of the game. 7's and custom boards do. So as usual, your arguments are invalid.
I'm trying to speak in the behalf of another party (not my own beliefs) but I at least am trying to be open minded about the whole topic. (When I stated if others wanted to run a tourney where there was a cash prize & all those in attendance wanted it) Then how is it spoiling the tourney??? WHAT CAUSE YOU DON"T LIKE IT, ITS WRONG !!!? If all in attendance is in favor, how can the tourney be spoiled?
Rod
Clan_Skaven - Feb 21, 2007 - 01:30 PM
Post subject:
angryrob wrote:
I voted no because with certain rules(ie. cocked dice, annoucing actions, etc) it would be a nightmare. mind you i can be a real rules nazi if i need to be.
In a tournament setting it would not work well in my opinion, to many different types of people for a serious cash based game. cash makes people crazy and i'd hate to see a bloodbowl tourney end with people "throwing hands" instead of throwing dice.
if you want a money game play poker.
I agree with you that I would not run or play in a cash prize tourney, but for anyone who wants to have one, I say if you can get enuff interested than go with it.... (but apparently, I'm the only one here who thinks that people should have free will to run or participate in thier own tourney as they see fit.)
Rod
Spazzfist - Feb 21, 2007 - 02:05 PM
Post subject:
We interrupt the currently scheduled "Clan-Skaven's Marathon Rant" for the following announcement
All we need to do is look at the votes. Currently it is 1-26-7. That means the "no vote" has more than three times as many votes as the other two combined.
'Nuff said.
We now take you back to Clan-Skaven's Marathon Rant
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz......
Clan_Skaven - Feb 21, 2007 - 02:13 PM
Post subject:
Spazzfist wrote:
We interrupt the currently scheduled "Clan-Skaven's Marathon Rant" for the following announcement
All we need to do is look at the votes. Currently it is 1-26-7. That means the "no vote" has more than three times as many votes as the other two combined.
'Nuff said.
We now take you back to Clan-Skaven's Marathon Rant
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz......
Ok ZOMBIE!
Igor_Tahavanale - Feb 21, 2007 - 02:20 PM
Post subject:
I'm adding my opinion to the "prizes are not cash" argument.
I'm not going to win a tourney. Ever. I'm not as good as half the people I play, that's why I'm happilly mid-table. But when I set up for the first kick of game one I want to have fun, with players who came to enjoy the event. A hobby prize encourages the hobby, cash encourages a cold ruthless attitude to many things. That has no place at a tourney.
To be honest I wouldn't even consider going to a tourney with a cash prize unless every player committed themselves, before the event, to donating any prize to charity. And that would defeat the object of such an event, the admission cost is the key there.
Grumbledook - Mar 01, 2007 - 09:50 AM
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I'd rather there wasn't any prizes at all and the costs were kept down.
much rather than than winning some tat I don't want, or something of no use to me which I then have to put the effort in to selling on ebay or whatever
the new naf winners trophy is fine as the only prize imho
the poll options are useless and don't cover the bases, if you are having prizes I can't see an issue with giving cash
if my entry cost is going towards paying for those prizes i'd rather win something I wanted
assuming the prize was something I wanted, chances are I have already bought it anyway
so i'm not voting!
daloonieshaman - Nov 18, 2007 - 08:35 PM
Post subject:
first of all There is no such thing as cheating in bloodbowl. Illegal procedures or actions yes, cheating no
someone misrepresents a skill, Illegal procedure
someone misrepresents a stat, illegal procedure
someone moves extra squares make him roll go for its
someone picks up the dice real quick and says he rolled the needed 6, reroll it I did not see it
The concept of CASH as prizes changes the attitude of the player and drives them away from the spirit of NAF
there is one thing about flavor of tournaments
CASH is not a flavor it is an attitude
Doubleskulls - Nov 19, 2007 - 01:06 AM
Post subject:
The only thing that is Illegal procedure is failing to move your turn marker and anything else is house rules.
In fact there is coincidental support for this position in the FAQ:
Q: Is it an illegal procedure should you forget to roll for Blood Lust, Bonehead, Wild Animal, Take Root or Really Stupid before you move the
player?
A: No, hopefully your opponent will remind you if you keep forgetting!
The only areas I've ever thought IP should be extended is to handle things like people setting up illegally (too many/too few or wrong positions). Even that is kludge to help out once the game has commenced rather than as the actual punishment. Set up 16 players on turn 1? That's worth an IP against a lot of teams!
Darkson - Nov 19, 2007 - 03:28 AM
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daloonieshaman wrote:
someone moves extra squares make him roll go for its
Wow! So my norse lineman moves 6, makes 2 GFIs then I decide to move a futher 2 or 3 squares - and your response is that I'm not cheating and I just need to make GFIs?
Makes One Turn Scores so much easier!
Spazzfist - Nov 19, 2007 - 06:31 AM
Post subject:
daloonieshaman wrote:
first of all There is no such thing as cheating in bloodbowl. Illegal procedures or actions yes, cheating no
Too broad of a comment. Of course people cheat. If someone is willfully doing something that is wrong, then it is cheating.
daloonieshaman - Nov 25, 2007 - 11:52 PM
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Quote:
Too broad of a comment. Of course people cheat. If someone is willfully doing something that is wrong, then it is cheating.
Only if you get caught! lol
Nandalf - Nov 27, 2007 - 05:47 PM
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Yo; i agree cash prizes would increase hostility- playing for more than glory then, and we'd get some serious rules lawyering!
However, as a SUPRIZE Prize, i think it'd be amazing, or just in a pools style manner amongs friends it's fine.
Nandalf[Ben}
Doubleskulls - Nov 27, 2007 - 10:25 PM
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daloonieshaman wrote:
Only if you get caught! lol
You'd still be a worthless no good scum though Just no one would know it...
KarlLagerbottom - Jan 05, 2008 - 05:13 PM
Post subject:
Just seeing this thread...and it is too late to vote, but I am adding my 1Cent. (Thanks Spazz for letting me keep the other penny...though I'm probably still being overcharged based on the value of the thought.)
But I digress...
I do not think that Cash Prizes should be allowed at NAF sanctioned events.
First, for precedent. NAF sanctioning is not given for invitational tournements. I'm not saying if I agree or disdagree with this stance...just that it sets the precedent that not all tournies do/should/will get the NAF stamp of approval. (I believe that there is also a tourney that encourages heavy drinking during the event...if I remember correctly...there was some discussion if this would continue to get NAF Sanctioning because of reports of incidents at this event.)
Secondly, the fun factor of the tourney would be removed entirely. There would be a whole new batch of attendees who would go just for the cash and be relentless of their pursuit of it. Power Gaming, rules lawyering, and outright cheating. For coaches that go just to have fun, and where winning is secondary, their games against these new coaches would quickly turn ugly. This would filter out some of the people who go strictly for fun when one of the "Hard Core" coaches ram it down their throats. It could also stifle the future growth of the scene if younger players are trounced unmercifully in the name of milking every bonus point.
Anyway...ramble over.
End of Line.
Lycos - Jan 09, 2008 - 12:49 PM
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You are not too late at all. This thread remains live because new coaches are joining all the time and they bring with them new thoughts and ideas.
We still want to know what you, the coaches, think about this subject.
MaD - Jul 01, 2008 - 06:22 AM
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NO CASH PRIZES!
simple because i want to play for fun and to meet others friends.
play for money it's equal to reduce BB similar to magic TCG...and saw people rawing in a rumble it's inacceptable!
BB still have the right competition rate.
not more ...not minus
Thomsy - Jul 05, 2008 - 02:27 AM
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I am one for no cash prizes.In my opinion winning one of the NAF trophies is much more satisfying and is something you will keep for a memory instead of something I'll use to get a hangover.
Nashrak - Dec 01, 2011 - 06:04 AM
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Personally the reason the BB scene is successful is because im not there , but its the fact we dont play for reward, we play because we enjoy it, thats the core to the community we have.
Prizes are nice but make it stuff which isnt expensive, a model or a team at most.
The thing i enjoy the most is the banter which people i wouldnt normally see or be able to talk to, and ofc beating hangus and watching his tears
sann0638 - Dec 02, 2011 - 08:31 AM
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@Darkson - can you beat this for threadromancy?
Darkson - Dec 02, 2011 - 09:13 AM
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I'm sure I could if I tried - found a thread from 2005 that could do with resurrecting...
AngusDad - Jun 07, 2012 - 06:39 PM
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I have read all the posts with great interest! and a lot of this is about trying to work the way through the swamp of grey areas such as dont offer cash but offer a prize of a team that could be worth £100 - £500 on ebay. I think this is just smoke and mirrors!! The intention (this is my view entirely and will accept negative feedback) of tournements is to encourage coaches to attend because of their joy in meeting coaches/friends and competing without monitory reward (it really is the olympic ideal). If we add financial rewards it will lose the real essence of the tourneys. Also if someone wins a set of figures or cup that on ebay have a financial value and wants to sell them so let them, people have sold their football trophies or even Victoria Cross's.
The real question is do we go to tourney's to play or to make money? I think it is to play, my view is please keep money rewards out of touneys
MrHannah