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NAF World Cup - WC 2007 feedback

Topper - Oct 24, 2007 - 10:29 AM
Post subject: WC 2007 feedback

Okay feedback:
I believe it was the best tournament I have played in yet.

Good stuff:
Food was good (at the least compared to English standards).
Beer was allowed.
The swissdraw was used both for teams and individuals within the teams (most important league feature I reckon).
30 pts for a win, 14 for a draw. Making a win and a loss better than 2 draws.
The event was fluent.

Things I believe can be improved:
One thing in particular bothered me.
The fact that both casualties and touchdowns were added/reduced from the result.
When using the swiss draw system most games will be very close - this means that few games will be won by more than 1-2 td´s.
However a bashy team might get 5-6 casualties in such a match.
This means that the system heavily favors bashing teams.

Also usually scoring is the end of a string of tactically considered events - often many turns.
A casualty is usually pure luck on a set of dice.

Finally I know I personally played at least two opponents who wasn´t aware that only casualties from blocks counted.
And I am also aware of one game that had a wrong casualty score given because they simply forgot in the end that only block casualties counted.
This means it can - and does lead to mistakes.

Apart from that it was a great tounament and all in all it´s a small issue.
I believe I´ll give you a 95% success rate on this one

Marco_Gianni - Oct 24, 2007 - 11:35 AM
Post subject: RE: WC 2007 feedback

Despite my pretty good results I'm agree with Topper... The bonus/malus system is a bit unfair for those who don't bash so much...

For instance, at the end of round 6 Tank (orc) was 6th with 5/0/1 and JC (Wood Elves) 15th with 5/1/0 !

Well, after all, the system is the same for all...

Another remark, the guys with an "unknown" race were very advantaged, at the first round and during all the competition. I've seen many people choosing their skill after knowing the race of their opponent... not fair.

That's all for the negative points ! Very Happy

and I want you to know how much I've been happy to participate to such an incredible event !

more more more !!! Very Happy

TuernRedvenom - Oct 24, 2007 - 02:51 PM
Post subject: RE: WC 2007 feedback

I also agree with Topper (and I've said it before). Casualties create a snowballeffect as a few early casualties are more likely to lead to even more cas and easier touchdowns.
Scoring a TD doesn't generate a snowball effect, in fact it's quite the contrary as you're more likely to receive cas because you will kick now which reduces your own chances at scoring cas yourself.

Darkson - Oct 24, 2007 - 04:57 PM
Post subject: Re: RE: WC 2007 feedback

Marco_Gianni wrote:

Another remark, the guys with an "unknown" race were very advantaged, at the first round and during all the competition. I've seen many people choosing their skill after knowing the race of their opponent... not fair.

If you saw this you should have pointed it out (and apologies if you did). I know for a fact it was announced that all skills should be chosen at the end of the previous game when everyone was together before round 1, and it was mentioned a couple of times down at the White Hart.

A quiet word to a ref who could have then had a quiet word with the coach would have gone a long way.

Morpheous - Oct 24, 2007 - 08:16 PM
Post subject:

One way I dealt with skill choosing after the game was to have my opponent choose his skill in front of me after the game, write it on score tally sheet and sign. This way if there was ever any question, the refs could go back, pull the sheet and look to see what was chosen. Dunno... was just my little way of keeping things on the up and up.

But then again, I didnt play anyone who wasnt honest. All 9 coaches I played were fair, and were great at pointing things out. One gent in particular who I thought was awesome and patient was Hoerkim. This gent went above and beyond in the patience book with me. I am rather a new player. Less than a year in tournament play and all around play in general. Yet despite his desire to win, still took time to enhance my playing skills by pointing out some things. Which during a tournament.... was A+++ coolness in my book.

Anyways... I didn't care much for the +/- thing either, I wanted all points to count. If I inflicted 5 cas on someone and they did two.. I want my +5 for working so hard, not a +3. But I wasnt running it, I think the staff did great. I just followed the rules and did what I was told. Darkson.. we never did get to have that beer together. Next time!

-Schawn

GalakStarscraper - Oct 24, 2007 - 11:04 PM
Post subject:

Agreed with Morpheous. The score sheets that I use for the Chaos Cup has a spot to write down the skill you are taking. I don't accept a score sheet for the result of a round without this filled out. Easy way to totally deal with Marco's issue for any future event.

Galak

Lorion - Oct 24, 2007 - 11:47 PM
Post subject: Re: WC 2007 feedback

Topper wrote:

Okay feedback:
I
Things I believe can be improved:
One thing in particular bothered me.
The fact that both casualties and touchdowns were added/reduced from the result.
When using the swiss draw system most games will be very close - this means that few games will be won by more than 1-2 td´s.
However a bashy team might get 5-6 casualties in such a match.
This means that the system heavily favors bashing teams.

Also usually scoring is the end of a string of tactically considered events - often many turns.
A casualty is usually pure luck on a set of dice.

Finally I know I personally played at least two opponents who wasn´t aware that only casualties from blocks counted.
And I am also aware of one game that had a wrong casualty score given because they simply forgot in the end that only block casualties counted.
This means it can - and does lead to mistakes.

I totally agree with this one, especially since my dwarf managed to lose on cas to AV7 2 times (while winning on TD's) Very Happy

. Think win, draw, loss should count primarily and then tiebreaker after that, and let this be the combination of cas and TD's as not to favor any team type (probably slightly favourable to bashy, but it's still the best).

Basicly I think Topper speaks for the entire ASS team.

Inaspin - Oct 25, 2007 - 01:45 AM
Post subject:

This solution or idea may have been covered already....

But, could we have had a set skill progression enforced on each coach before we began. It could have been a case of having skills already noted on team sheets, next to players, in the order they were to be taken, at the correct time and ticked off/assigned when appropriate... This would have reduced the 'unknown team' entries in the first round also, maybe.... Smile

antipixi - Oct 25, 2007 - 03:00 AM
Post subject:

I agree with all of the above comments, but especially the positive on the first post.

I would like to point out that at least some of those listed as 'unknown' for the first round had declared their teams but for some reason or other the information had not reached OMM. I'm not saying that no one took advantage, but sweeping statements tar everyone with the same brush, and none of my team mates deserve to be tarred. (Well at least not for trying to take advantage of seeing the draw before choosing team.)

Gus - Oct 25, 2007 - 03:22 AM
Post subject:

I think there are some good comments here. Personally I would just stick with asking you to write the skill down on the results sheet. That would be enough. Most (nearly all)coaches are honest and play in the right spirit so I don't think there is any need to get too carried away but a reference to check in case of disputes would solve it. Also I must say I'm guilty of changing my mind on skill selection, but only after discussion with my team mates, never once my next opponent was known.

Tripleskull - Oct 25, 2007 - 06:59 AM
Post subject:

Why not just let people choose the skill when they know the opponent?

Morpheous - Oct 25, 2007 - 07:58 AM
Post subject:

Because then they could choose a skil that might be tailored to the team you are playing.

IE: Wrestle for playing a Dwarf team or Tackle for playing a dodgey team. Or might blow when playing against a squishy team. Smile

Doing it that way just seems... well slighted to me. But that is just me Smile

-Schawn

Tripleskull - Oct 25, 2007 - 08:15 AM
Post subject:

Im sure u rekognise that ur basically just saying that u dont like it cuz u dont like it Very Happy

How about a diskussion of the toppic?

I for one find, that it contributes with extra tactikal considerations - witch I like cuz I like them Mr. Green

As it is u essentialy just wonna find the best way to devellop ur team - the other way arround u could get in a dilemma.

If cas isnt gonna count for points in the future, it is also a good way to make WEs a litle less dominating.

Lorion - Oct 25, 2007 - 12:44 PM
Post subject: Re: WC 2007 feedback

[
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Basicly I think Topper speaks for the entire *censored* team.[/quote]

Ahh using the abbreviation for Aros Super Stars probably isn't that good. Hope noone got offended, and that everybody got the point.

Hudson - Oct 25, 2007 - 02:06 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: WC 2007 feedback

As for the skill picking i agree with Morpheous. First thing we did after our game was pick skills. I like the fact he wrote them on the score sheet. It was a great game too.
Even if i'd know my oppos race i dont think my skills would of changed. I was always going to be a bashy norse team.

The cas thing, would of been nice to only count the +s but he ho.

Morpheous - Oct 25, 2007 - 08:16 PM
Post subject:

Thanks Hudson, I appreciate that. Now if you will only admit that I was truly the better bloodbowl player, and that the Blitz, pitch invasion, the 4 double skull rolls in a row, and the crappy 1's were REALLY the only deciding factor in you prevailing in our game, life can continue as normal Smile

Just kidding you won fair/square. Nuffle still sucks. And I do like writing the the skill down. Smile

Viva La Flame On... Oh wait.. you were team Cornwall or Cromwell, or something.. anyways Cheers Laughing

-Schawn

Hudson - Oct 26, 2007 - 03:15 AM
Post subject:

Well the pitch invasion was paid for, bribed the fans on the wy in. The blitz was because i'd offered my team lots of beer. Though your habbit of rolling double skulls and nothing but 1's and 2's did help. What was it, the 4th set of dice you used that finally worked?

Yep it was team Cornwall. Home of the british surfer, i wantted us to be team DUDE

CoffinDodger - Oct 26, 2007 - 10:38 AM
Post subject:

antipixi wrote:

I would like to point out that at least some of those listed as 'unknown' for the first round had declared their teams but for some reason or other the information had not reached OMM.

I'm one of those coaches whose choice was determined well before yet listed as an unknown. Having said that, two of my opponents were playing different races from what was listed... Skaven and Orcs somehow both turned into Wood Elves... Not that I minded - the games were still great!

On the whole, I think listing Coach and Team Name would have sufficed. Coaches could then look at the NAF rankings and make a guestimate on what races they might face e.g. it was fairly easy to see that my first opponent, Farina, is damn good with Skaven - maybe he'll be playing them... actually gave me a good game with WE which I was lucky enough to win. There'd be the odd hiccup - e.g. I'd not show up as anything other than a non-playing coach as this was my first tourney with a NAF sanction where I've been a NAF member (did the BloodBowl in 2004, but wasn't in NAF yet)

On the whole though - Damned Good Effort by all the organisers, the foreign teams coming over, everyone really! Next time, Team Scotland will rampage with 6 players and there'll be no stopping us! Twisted Evil

lol
BFN

Paul

Hangus - Oct 26, 2007 - 11:01 AM
Post subject:

Yes there will as Hoomin would be your 6th player Very Happy

I was one of the players with an 'unknown' team and ther reason for that......plain laziness. I forgot after a while but Lycos came around and was marking down teams as people played.

Skills could be sorted by having to register them with the scoresheet you hand in after the game. If people are choosing after seeing their opponant I am not worried by that as I could mess up plans for the tourney as he could pick tackle to take on WE and end up playing 5 Dwarf teams. Its also bad karma Wink

Ryan - Oct 26, 2007 - 11:18 AM
Post subject:

Quote:

Hudson Wrote

Yep it was team Cornwall. Home of the british surfer, i wantted us to be team DUDE

If you had been called Team Dude then everyone would have woundered (Or at least I would have) Were Team Sweet was

Rodders - Oct 27, 2007 - 02:31 AM
Post subject:

I was also an unknown as i was undecided what to take until the thursday morining however after the 1st round there should be no unknowns.

people choosing after seeing their opponent just suck, The idea of handing your skill in with the score sheet is a good one

Marco_Gianni - Oct 31, 2007 - 05:27 AM
Post subject: Re: RE: WC 2007 feedback

Darkson wrote:

Marco_Gianni wrote:

I did point it out... but I didn't care so much of that (focus on my matches). Anyway, the idea is not to blame anyone (certainly not the organization team !). I'm totally agree with those who say that the skill should be written down on the result sheet.

Sorry if my remark sounds to critical. That was only an amelioration opportunity Wink

Once again, congratz for your awesome job ! that was simply "pure happyness"

Wink