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Strategy and Tactics - stats MV vs AV

jigplums - Aug 21, 2009 - 02:47 AM
Post subject: stats MV vs AV

what do you think is the more useful increase MV or AV.

i think mv is easier to see the benefits, and see when it would change the course of a game, but having numerical advantage is a big factor too and av can help that

Cramy - Aug 21, 2009 - 06:59 PM
Post subject: RE: stats MV vs AV

Definitely MV. I find that AV is only useful if you have a very good player with lots of amazing skills. Then you really don't want that player to die. Problem with AV is that you don't control when you use it. And it may never get to be used.

Apocrypha - Aug 22, 2009 - 11:58 AM
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And even with adding to a players AV it doesn't matter against skills like Claws.

SolarFlare - Aug 22, 2009 - 12:29 PM
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it depends on the position of the player...

jigplums - Aug 22, 2009 - 01:34 PM
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solarflare, what positions do you think you would take av over mv then?
i took +mv on a mummy the other day. i think it could be really useful as a he has piling on and b it makes it so hes harder to get away from.

daloonieshaman - Aug 22, 2009 - 02:01 PM
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Orc Thrower
Skaven Stormvermin
Minatour
to name a few

Frantic - Aug 22, 2009 - 04:01 PM
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Any dwarf would become the Usain Bolt for their race. Razz

And the Skaven Gutter runner will become a One turn scorer after a while
The same with the wood elf catcher but that will end when the LRB 6.0 is official.

nyarlathotep - Aug 23, 2009 - 09:21 AM
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daloonieshaman wrote:

Orc Thrower
Skaven Stormvermin
Minatour
to name a few

I disagree on the Minotaur - at least on CD teams. MV 6 with Frenzy, STR 5 and Horns is a disturbing player, indeed.

daloonieshaman - Aug 23, 2009 - 11:28 AM
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The AV increase

Frantic - Aug 23, 2009 - 11:39 AM
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nyarlathotep wrote:

daloonieshaman wrote:

Orc Thrower
Skaven Stormvermin
Minatour
to name a few

I disagree on the Minotaur - at least on CD teams. MV 6 with Frenzy, STR 5 and Horns is a disturbing player, indeed.

Well I like the 6MV frenzy player. At least with my startup. I have my Rat Ogre behind the front line and with a movement 6 he will (if a Blitz is the result of the kick of table) be able to send one player into the audience.

Doubleskulls - Aug 24, 2009 - 12:06 AM
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I can't think of many players where I'd take +Av first skill. Zombies, human linemen do well with Av9 - but are better served by block (or wrestle) for a 1st skill. 2nd skill they've gone beyond "line fodder" so it isn't so useful.

In a league with lots of Claw +Av becomes almost pointless.

smeborg - Aug 26, 2009 - 03:05 PM
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I am inclined to ignore +AV in practically all cases.

However, I did have some success with +1AV on a Rotter (it lead to him surviving a bit longer than other Rotters, but he died in the end, of course). Conversely, I once gave +1AV to a Chaos Dwarf (who also had -1AG). He occupied the centre of the line of scrimmage, but died soon enough, naturally.

In LRB 6 (draft), which I play, there are 8 teams out of 24 who have access to Claw. This Claw will surely be used against any hapless chap who takes the +1AV. So I am inclined to ignore +1AV nowadays.

+1MA is most useful on players who are already fast, or on a team of players with average movement, where the whole team will benefit from any MA increase.

Giving +1MA to slow players is a marginal decision. I once gave +1MA to 2 Chaos Dwarfs. Although it was occasionally useful, on balance I regretted the decision, and felt I would have been better off with normal skills.

I find it pays to have a clear development plan for each and every player type before you start a team. In this way you make the decision before rolling the dice. And you can see (over time) whether your development plan is sound or not, instead of facing the consequences of several ad hoc skill decisions. I find that more satisfying (if not necessarily better!).

GreedySmurf - Aug 26, 2009 - 07:47 PM
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I've got a Norse lineman who I gave the +AV to. And he now gets to be the centre in the LoS, and I can honestly say his AV8 has saved him from being hurt on numerous occasions. I seem to remember those occasions a bit becasue I have to come out with, "well actually that's my AV8 guy" with a slight smirk on my face Laughing

Of course that being said, on my Norse team the dedictaed LoS liney's would be about the only ones I would take +AV over +MV on. (I'd think about the Ulf's maybe if it ever came up)

daloonieshaman - Aug 26, 2009 - 09:28 PM
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The Flaw in your "Claws" argument is this
Only 8 teams out of 24 have access to Claws. In an average league you might face one or two of those teams. So most of the time you will play a "regular" team. "Ohh! I am so afraid, AV is so useless against claws" Rubbish circular argument. Average die roll is 7 on 2 dice. If he is gonna sqeak by with an 8 v/s a 9/10 you have no clue as to the odds of dice rolling. Claws is SO overrated and feared. 1 he has got to successfully hit you, 2 he has to successfully claw you 3 he has to successfully do more than stun you.

On the other hand ....
Valuable low armor fellows, Witch elf, Minatour, Rat Orge, ect benefit far more on an AV increase than a MV increase, and depending on the skill set allowed for that player it will give them a longer life span than some standard skill

Doubleskulls - Aug 27, 2009 - 12:33 AM
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The reason +Av is so poor isn't as much to do with Claw as to do with the relative impact of normal skills for staying alive.

Take a Zombie. Block, although it doesn't save you quite as many armour breaks as Block would - Block keeps you on your feet and helps when blocking so reduces turnovers. Factor in that +av costs 10k more in player value and you've not got a very compelling argument to take it.

I did once run a HE team when I basically gave everyone who got a 6,4 +Av. It was quite interesting but I never got enough games played to really feel like I'd benefited more than if I'd taken a normal skill.

So really I don't think +av is normally I good choice. There might be some real edge cases where its good (probably 3rd/4th skill on linemen/blocker types) but most player types benefit more from other choices in most circumstances.

daloonieshaman - Aug 27, 2009 - 01:16 AM
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the question from the post was

Quote:

what do you think is the more useful increase MV or AV.

we both know in most cases a basic skill is better (unless your team is limited in skill variety)

smeborg - Aug 27, 2009 - 02:40 PM
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Doubleskulls - I recently ran an HE side with +1AV on a couple of Linos. It was poor, and I felt normal skills would have been much better.

I also play in a Claw-heavy league (say 40% of my regular opponents), so, while not an overwhelming argument, this is certainly an incentive not to take +AV.

daloonieshaman - Aug 27, 2009 - 03:10 PM
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in that case take the MV and an AV7 team and laugh as they waste the skill rolls (granted a skill would have been better but that was not the original query)

razial - Jul 13, 2011 - 11:36 PM
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I know for my dwarfs having 2 guys with av10 was nice... I could stick them on ogres.... minotaurs...trolls and free up other guys while they spent the game stuck with an annoying fat little guy to deal with..... but thats the only thing I could think of using AV on... otherwise MV all the way