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NAF World Cup - NAF II : painting contest questions
Elyoukey - Jan 07, 2011 - 01:54 AM
Post subject: NAF II : painting contest questions
Hello,
i know most of us are players more than painters. And that there is a old gimmick that says "white men can't jump, and good players can't paint", but if there is a painting contest i think it would be very good to have the rule set quickly because painting a whole team at a high level do consume a lot of time. (considreing you also do have a cumulative full time job/life )
So
-will there be several categories and if yes which ones ? (big guy, team, diorama etc..)
-do you have to play the team you want to present to the contest ?
-will there be a jury or will it be a public vote ?
-will there be a preselection (as for the B7 where a jury preselect teams that will be submitted to the public vote afterwards)
I know this is not an emergency for most of us, but at least the questions has been put somewhere,please do answer as soon as possible.
I (and probably other painters) would not like to present a last time scratch build team.
DOA - Jan 07, 2011 - 02:38 AM
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i agree the question
Snake_Eyes - Jan 07, 2011 - 11:48 AM
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one more issue to think about imo - have the teams to be painted by the coach himself or not? (for the painting contest)
Elyoukey - Jan 08, 2011 - 06:19 AM
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Snake_Eyes wrote:
one more issue to think about imo - have the teams to be painted by the coach himself or not? (for the painting contest)
Elyoukey wrote:
-do you have to play the team you want to present to the contest ?
is my english that bad or isn't it the same question ?
Mootaz - Jan 08, 2011 - 06:48 AM
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They are different questions:
The difference is whether or not you can present a team that was not painted by you.
Elyoukey - Jan 08, 2011 - 07:20 AM
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Mootaz wrote:
They are different questions:
The difference is whether or not you can present a team that was not painted by you.
ok i see
i used to go to miniature contests so for me it was obvious that for a painting contest you do present miniatures you painted. But true, this point should be specified.
Doubleskulls - Jan 08, 2011 - 10:58 PM
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I think there really should be a separate painting competition that has no relationship to the games themselves - and cover all the categories you'd normally expect.
Pako - Jan 10, 2011 - 07:03 AM
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That was my suggestion to Dave on November. He replied they are going to consider it after Tournament Main settings are ready.
Quote:
Hello Dave,
I'm a quite veteran spanish player, who was at the first NAF WC. I'm playing BB for more than ten years, and I want to suggest you an idea that maybe you will find interesting.
Due to the disappointment that in spain some players and painters had with Legacy Team painting level, we decided to try with an alternate Legacy called Legacy Contest.
The idea is more or less the same, each participant paints a model, and one winner get the whole team. The thing here is that the winner in Legacy Contest is the one chosen because of his mini is the best painted.
This idea was tried just twice, unfortunately it takes so much effort for us to do it well, mainly because the number of spanish "pro-painters" was not so high in the past... Maybe today it will work better. Anycase, we could manage to have a number of extremely good painted minis, with the same colour scheme, from different artists.
I think that maybe it will be interesting for you as a "side event" on NAF World Cup II. Organizers can pic up one race, recall for pro-painters to join in the contest, share the positionals and also decide the colour scheme (probably NAF colours or Orange as Dutch sport colour).
Then maybe you can get such a high number of real pro-painters (because of so many people will not join in if they know that are not going to win) and finally also get such a nice picture of a Dutch NAF World Cup Team.
You have the people critic mass to get the painters, also a number of veteran players as Contest painting referees, and I guess some money for a symbolic thropy or something like that. Most important, you have the name of WC and the prestige associated to it.
I'm wasting your time just because it figures to me like a Golden Demon of Bloodbowl, and your tourney seems the best place to do it.
Thank you for your time, and also your effort to go on with WC.
Cheers
Pako
Maybe community can help organizers running the Painting contest as a side event...
Lucy - Jan 10, 2011 - 07:15 AM
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We are discussing the painting prize topic.
Organising something like this for 80 players with votes for all costs 30-40 minutes. For 400+ you need a quicker system with less people voting.
Even the Old Nottingham way took way too long.
So, we're looking for a system which doesn't have a huge drag on the timetable. Which still should get the best team possible.
Lucy
Grumbledook - Jan 10, 2011 - 07:25 AM
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should have a team of judges, not a public vote imo
might lead to political voting otherwise ;]
want the most worthy one to win, not who has the most people there they know voting for them
Elyoukey - Jan 10, 2011 - 07:35 AM
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Same opinion for me,
+ a dedicated jury will be able to judge the miniatures during games for a 0 time impact on the overall schedule.
probably the Dutch painting community has high level painters that would be happy to give a hand.
Pako - Jan 10, 2011 - 08:57 AM
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Best choice imo too
longfang - Jan 10, 2011 - 12:06 PM
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I wont get a team done so I can help Judge! If you think I am qualified!
Kithor - Jan 10, 2011 - 01:45 PM
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Maybe the potential candidates can post pictures of their team in a thread here. So there can be a preselection.
Elyoukey - Jan 10, 2011 - 11:29 PM
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actually a picture do never give justice to a minitature, simetimes looks better and sometimes looks crappier, to juge a mini you have to have it in your hand i think.
Doubleskulls - Jan 16, 2011 - 12:26 PM
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You can have diorama prizes etc set up in a display so everyone can look at them. Then have a public vote on the best ones.
For teams and mini's people are playing with then you need something else. One thing I've done in the past is to have painting scored by every opponent. Then you work out the difference between the score given and the average that player gives, and that is the painting score for the round. So for example Adam scores Carl, Dave and Ed 5,6,7. Carl gets -1, Dave 0, and Ed +1. Bob scores them 10,10,10 and the all get zero. I use the same technique for sportsmanship (BTW thanks to Bevan and Babs for introducing me to it).
The team with the highest differential generally is very good. Sometimes I'll just use this to determine the winner, in other instances use it to qualify for expert review. So for example the top 10 teams might make the short list, then the judges pick the 1,2 & 3.
Elyoukey - Jan 17, 2011 - 12:37 AM
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Doubleskulls wrote:
You can have diorama prizes etc set up in a display so everyone can look at them. Then have a public vote on the best ones.
The problem with a public system is that it can be some political votes, even if some teams are far better looking you will tend to vote for your friends, so the winner may be the one with the most friends voting instead of the one with the better team. That's why i would prefer an expert review at some point in the process. That's how historical painting contests work.
Darkson - Jan 17, 2011 - 06:31 AM
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Having helped run the painting comp at the GT, I have to agree with Elyoukey - the number of times I saw people (as a group) just hand their voting slips in with the team number pre-filled (direct from the lunch hall), then go and look at the rest of the teams...
SSB - Jan 18, 2011 - 04:42 AM
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You can even have two prizes...
The public prize
The jury prize
Lucy - Feb 11, 2011 - 08:45 AM
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Maybe there's a quicker easier solution:
After every match, teamcaptains (together with their team) award two teams from their opponents who get 1 and 3 points. These options will be entered on the match sheet.
After 6 rounds we'll determine who the X teams were with the most points. From these X a panel will determine the winner(s).
Easy, not time consuming and as honest as all other options.
Lucy
Darkson - Feb 11, 2011 - 01:50 PM
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That could still possibly mean 80 teams for the judging panel, if each team has 1 good team and one above-average team.
Lucy - Feb 11, 2011 - 06:05 PM
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True, but I doubt they each have this.
Some might have a few good ones and others none.
So, I think this will bring it down to 10-20.....
A panel should be able to handle that.
Lucy
Dark_Duke - Feb 12, 2011 - 06:02 AM
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Lucy wrote:
After every match, teamcaptains (together with their team) award two teams from their opponents who get 1 and 3 points. These options will be entered on the match sheet.
After 6 rounds we'll determine who the X teams were with the most points. From these X a panel will determine the winner(s).
Many Spanish coaches don't post here because language barriers. That's why I've translated this proposal at the Spanish site and I'm waiting to gather the general opinion there and let you know. Personally, I like the idea 
Darkson - Feb 12, 2011 - 10:57 AM
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Lucy wrote:
True, but I doubt they each have this.
Wait, are you suggesting only awarding the 3 and 1 pt if the opposing team has decent teams? Because your original wording makes it sound like you give 3 and 1 every round (1-6).
Lucy - Feb 12, 2011 - 05:54 PM
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No, I mean every (6) rounds 3 and 1 points.
But, I doubt every team will have an obvious 1st and 2nd best.
Lucy
Elyoukey - Feb 14, 2011 - 01:32 AM
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This sounds good,
but if i do understand correctly, if i paint a team, and my teammate also have a cool team, we will be in direct competition because we will share the 3 and 1 points (for an average 12 points each) , while if in another team, there is only 1 good painter he will have all the 3 points each round (for a 18 points total) , even if he has a team that has a lower quality.
Depending on the selection limit points, this may be an issue.
Lucy - Feb 14, 2011 - 09:30 AM
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True.
Just a thought. Maybe each team can show 2 teams to their opponents and they award 1-5 points to these two teams.
Now if a team has 3 or more teams eligible for the painting contest, then they just have to make a preselection by themselves.
Lucy
Elyoukey - Feb 14, 2011 - 10:01 AM
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yes, this could work.
This means that both paintedteams can have the same points.
Considering the schedule, and because it is a team decision, you will have to allow a bit more time to the rounds, so all the team can judge the paintedteams.
And doing it before playing the match would be better because at the end of the game, you will have to wait for/regather all the spreaded teammates
Taxal - Feb 14, 2011 - 10:19 AM
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How about each team can only nominate 1 of the coaches to represent the "Best Team" award with his/her team.
DOA - Aug 01, 2011 - 03:35 AM
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So?
We have a deal?
Lucy - Aug 02, 2011 - 02:38 AM
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We have a deal.
Although the senate must still vote on small details.
Lucy
Glowworm - Aug 02, 2011 - 03:20 AM
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Taxal wrote:
How about each team can only nominate 1 of the coaches to represent the "Best Team" award with his/her team.
+1
liking this idea