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NAF World Cup - NAF World Cup Painting Competition - discussion
Dave - Feb 02, 2011 - 02:11 PM
Post subject: NAF World Cup Painting Competition - discussion
On the Painting.
We're a little daunted by the task of both running the tournament smoothly and also running a painting competition. We invite everyone to explain his take on how the painting could be organized without being a major harrasment to the general ongoings of the tournament
Things that we've played with:
1) A comittee consisting of 'recognized painters' and organization nominates an x amount of teams
2) Team Captains may put forth one team for the painting prize when the painter of the team is a team member
3) No painting as the logistical implications may well be massive
4) ...
Elyoukey - Feb 03, 2011 - 01:52 AM
Post subject: RE: NAF World Cup Painting Competition - discussion
actually not everybody is full english fluent (and especially me) so maybe first a bit of nomenclature. The term "team" may be ambiguous (?) designing the 6 coachs team or the 16 painted miniatures.
"2) Team Captains may put forth one team for the painting prize when the painter of the team is a team member "
i am not able to be the member of the team i painted ... ^_^
as far as i see for me the easier would be a 'golden demon' like:
3 categories
-big guy
-roster
-individual (human sized)
for each category any coach can submit 1 entry. So anybody can bring his friends miniatures and present them if they whish.
you have to get a place to display the entries (i guess a Detolf would do the trick, maybe two if there are a lot of participants, but i don't think they will be so much, datas from the previous WC would help to get the good proportion)
Then i would go for the first proposition: a committee, independant from the main organisators (the aim is to leave the organisators handle the tournament)
do select the winners for each category. If there are enough entries, may be a top 3 for each.
If possible a guest star may participate to the deliberation (Jervis Johnson or MikeMcVey would be welcome i think)
But i don't know if there would be enough participation, so only 1 category may be enough.
I think that if you don't want it to overlap the tournament you have to delegate the main part to the recognized painters (2-3 painters should be enough i think).
People should be able to enter the contest from friday night to saturday morning so they can subscribe in between the first rounds. The comitte could deliberate on saturday so the prize can be given on sunday.
This would make a 'standard' painting contest. entries would not be played by the coaches.
But if you want to have the best played roster, you may consider the doubleskull way, i have never seen it in use, but it sounds pretty good:
Quote:
For teams and mini's people are playing with then you need something else. One thing I've done in the past is to have painting scored by every opponent. Then you work out the difference between the score given and the average that player gives, and that is the painting score for the round. So for example Adam scores Carl, Dave and Ed 5,6,7. Carl gets -1, Dave 0, and Ed +1. Bob scores them 10,10,10 and the all get zero. I use the same technique for sportsmanship (BTW thanks to Bevan and Babs for introducing me to it).
The team with the highest differential generally is very good. Sometimes I'll just use this to determine the winner, in other instances use it to qualify for expert review. So for example the top 10 teams might make the short list, then the judges pick the 1,2 & 3.
people giving the painting score on friday and saturday, this would let the saturday night and sunday morning for a committee to judge the top 10 with miniatures in their hands.
to do this you have to prepare a specific 'painting score' cell in the reportsheet.
my 2 cents
oh and please please please do not consider the point 3) "No painting as the logistical implications may well be massive ", if you are really in the lack of time, i can contact the Teamtoulouse, i am pretty sure they could find 2-3 painters to organise it for you.
Dave - Feb 03, 2011 - 09:38 AM
Post subject: RE: NAF World Cup Painting Competition - discussion
good input, any others?
Darkson - Feb 03, 2011 - 10:52 AM
Post subject: RE: NAF World Cup Painting Competition - discussion
As a non-painter, I'm happy with 3.
But...
I think #1 is the way to go, but I'd also suggest that you ask everyone at registration (either in person or on the entry form) whether they'd like to be considered for Best Painted. For example, looking at any team I paint is a waste of time, and that time (even if it's only 15-20 seconds)could be spent elsewhere. If, say, 50% of people decide they're not entering Best Painted, then that's 200 less teams to look at.
I'd also limit it to teams (and single figs if you go that direction) that the player painted themselves.
JaM - Feb 03, 2011 - 03:18 PM
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1. the painter should play with his team (i.e. the team you use should be painted by yourself).
2. 1 entry per the 6 members of the "country-team". Downside: probably every team wants to have a shot. So you are still looking at 100 teams (more or less).
3. I'm not too sure about individual models. After all, it's a team-event and there are BB-teams... it may look good on paper, but that's a HELL of a lot of models then. I'd say stick to teams.
4. Maybe, to make things a bit more exciting, get them on a base. There's still time till November, that shouldnt be hard. Someone not willing to try that should probably not enter this painting competition.
Downside: Like the GD, we'll get the "best-base" syndrome.
I'll ponder a bit more I guess. It would be nice to have some kind of painting prize.
Is there an easy way to check if EVERYONE would like to enter this ? Or are we looking at 20-30 teams ?
Because 20 teams are doable, 60 is a headache...
Hachablanca - Feb 03, 2011 - 03:25 PM
Post subject: RE: NAF World Cup Painting Competition - discussion
Hello,
I'll tell you my personal opinion:
Players "painters"are usually known in their country of origin. Of the participants who represent the country could elect a candidate as "best national artist. "
So you would have the names of the participating artists before the tournament. They could publish their work so that others saw them and their team mates to take their teams painted.
You could appoint a judge for the country to vote and organize the tournament paint under your supervision to take away not so long.
Thanks for having us
If you need help, tell me
Hachablanca / Nacho SM
Cookie - Feb 03, 2011 - 08:46 PM
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I think everybody judging everyone else is going to be a little bit too subjective to weed out the best painted teams. I can't see an easy way that a clear winner (or set of winners) will necessarily emerge from that given hundreds of coaches each with their own tastes.
A committee (rather than just decent painters, but representative of all abilities) evaluating and voting on submissions seems more sensible and manageable. It could be done over an evening or set of breaks.
The painters are then judged by their player peers, and for the sake of objectivity I'd suggest no entries from the judges.
The tricky bit is keeping the number of submissions manageable, I'd be in favor of the painter being present to submit their entry. Presenting others work is always a bit iffy, you might be able to present a Golden Daemon winning entry but it doesn't mean the painter likes or plays the game.
From my tournament experience, you get maybe 3-4 decent teams in contention for best painted awards out of an average of 30 players. Scaling that to the tournament size maybe restricting to just one entry per player team (or per category per player team) is realistic both in terms of entry numbers and able painters?
That way, the coaches themselves do the first round of elimination for you.
Elyoukey - Feb 04, 2011 - 01:15 AM
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JaM wrote:
1. the painter should play with his team (i.e. the team you use should be painted by yourself).
i really think this is the first question to clearly answer. If the organizer want
a best played team
or
a parallel bloodbowl painting contest
once this answered it is possible to go to the organisation step and find the best way to handle the time issue.
Doubleskulls - Feb 04, 2011 - 05:21 AM
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My preference would normally be to insist that the painter is present, they just don't have to be using the minis. So you can submit a team you've lent to someone else to play or even painted for them.
JaM - Feb 04, 2011 - 08:27 AM
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The painter should indeed actually BE there.
Doubleskulls - Feb 04, 2011 - 08:58 PM
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Agreed, but your wording said they had to be using the team themselves, and mine doesn't. Its a subtle point, but can be important.
Cookie - Feb 05, 2011 - 09:54 AM
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It would probably be easier for the judges if they weren't using the team.
I believe thats how the last world cup worked
Elyoukey - Feb 07, 2011 - 10:18 AM
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JaM wrote:
The painter should indeed actually BE there.
Concerning the presence of the painter, the problem is you cannot be sure at 100% that the one painting the miniature is the one showing them to you. It may be painted by someone else and the presenting guy trying to get the prize.
I know this is not this kind of mentality we have here, but it i think it must be considered.
Any improvement/information/choice from the organizing team during the weekend ?
Marco_Gianni - Feb 07, 2011 - 12:06 PM
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Maybe being confident some time to time could be the good attitude ?
However I can attest that I'm the painter of all the minis played by Elyoukey 
AnthonyTBBF - Feb 15, 2011 - 07:15 PM
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I think it would be cool if the painting competition was a big deal. It would be really cool if countries could enter minis from people not attending, since getting to the WC just for painting might not be doable by the majority of painters. I would propose that each country can submit entries on behalf of people not attending who are "painting for their country" and that it be judged by a panel of recognized pros.
I think this would add another dimension to the WC that would truly round out the BB hobby in general.
Chou - Feb 22, 2011 - 04:38 AM
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Hi,
what about if we do some mix? Each team gets to evaluate their rivals miniatures, giving 6 and 3 points to two teams, and this from rounds 1 to 8. Then in round 9 the judges/organizers could go to check the teams with the highest marks and choose the winner.
just my opinion! in any case, I'd vote for having the artist be present in the WC, one entry per artist and that the team must be playable, this is, it has to be used during the tournament (for instance, I wouldn't choose a diorama over a team)
Darkson - Feb 22, 2011 - 05:34 AM
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Could be a bit difficult if one of those high-scoring teams is 15mins away...
Chou - Feb 22, 2011 - 07:13 AM
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Darkson wrote:
Could be a bit difficult if one of those high-scoring teams is 15mins away...
Argh, I forgot we were having to places to play...then my proposal is not possible
Elyoukey - Feb 22, 2011 - 07:23 AM
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actuually it has already be proposed, if the scoring process last only for the first 2 das, their should be no problem for the judges to see all the selected teams in day 3 (even if there are 15 minutes to go to the other spot)
and for the scoring system, i already put my argument stating that 2 paintedteams in the same coach team would be in direct competition for the 6 and 3 points which would not be good i think.
Paloji - Feb 23, 2011 - 03:06 AM
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Hi all, I don´t know what is the best solution to evaluate all the teams in such big event, but I think there are a couple of importants points wich need to be considered:
- An independant cometee should decide, if we let the players vote there is the big risk that they vote to their friends. so the winner is the one with more friends instead the best painted.
- The painter should be there. If you have paid someone else to paint your team, or you are using someone else team...its ok!! no problem with that...but be honest and don´t take a price that don´t deserve. (Some times I have played tournaments with miniatures that are not mine, and I told the organization that they weren´t mine, just in case they were thinking on giving some painting price).
Maybe if the captains propose one of their team teams is a good option to save time to the judges, as they would need to evaluate a much smaller number of teams...
Elyoukey - Feb 23, 2011 - 05:49 AM
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those point have already been developped in previous posts (here and there). This post begins to loopback, maybe the organization team have enough elements ? It is a matter of decision now. Guess answer will not fall this week because the payment issue is hot, but Dave, if you can answer/ask/tell anything...
Lucy - Feb 23, 2011 - 06:16 AM
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You're right Elyoukey, this looked familiar.
If someone has a beautiful point, we're happy to consider it, but at the moment the focus is on other things.
This thread will be used when we'll have a discussion over this.
At the moment we'll most likely use the format which uses teams to give points to two painted teams from their opponents and rate those on their match sheet (preferably secret).
This way it doesn't matter if they play in the main venue or not. All get judged by their opponents.
On sunday, we just have to make sure the painting committee gets a look at all teams eligible at that time. We'll make sure they get to see all teams of course.
Lucy
Elyoukey - Aug 30, 2011 - 09:25 AM
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Hi there, kind of threadomancy to up this post and ask what about the painting contect in the World cup 2 ?
is there anything fixed yet ?
we are less than 3 month from the event and i really think that if you want beautifulls minis to show in the contest it is more than time to begin to paint
it would be great to have the rules for the contest now in order to have enough time to paint and convert miniatures and display that will fit with the system (for exemple, no use to spend time on a huge display if it is forbidden in the end)
Lucy - Aug 30, 2011 - 01:56 PM
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We're going to have a painting contest.
Friday and saturday will be used as described above.
Sunday will be used by the committee voting on the best as awarded by the other teams who have judged their opponents.
We'll make sure all captains receive a painting form which must be handed in together with the match results.
Since not all matches will end at the same time, several players have time enough to ensure a fair vote before all 6 matches between two teams have ended.
We might deviate a little, but this will be mostly it.
Lucy
DOA - Sep 01, 2011 - 05:29 AM
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So, how does it runs?