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Strategy and Tactics - Dark Elves in Resurrection Tourneys

runejack - Jul 21, 2011 - 06:55 AM
Post subject: Dark Elves in Resurrection Tourneys

Hi Folks,

I was hoping to bounce some questions and ideas off of the more learned souls who have much more tourney experience than myself. These are all relating to a Dark Elf team I'll be taking to EucBowl in Sydney,Australia next month. A brief run down of the rules is 1250k starting rosters, 0-2 stars, up to 1 regular skill per player (no doubles) for 20k each. No skillups between games. Rosters are reset to your starting lineup after each round.

1. How does a 70k lineman compare to an apothecary plus a skill for one of the remaining players? Apothecary a badly hurt and he comes back next drive or risk apothing a SI or Death for a 50% chance they come back next drive. (I guess there's also apoth a clutch KO?) Are the odds worth an extra skill on the field vs an extra skilless lino

2. How huge is a star player like Eldril Sidewender? At 200k, I'm looking at basically him plus a starter Dark Elf Team plus 50k. Too many eggs in one basket for a player without black and AV 7? What I'm seeing in him is two fold. a)a cure for the lack of guard on the dark elf team through hypno gaze and b)a nice offensive package for when you need a clutch touchdown through dodge, NoS and catch. The pass block is just icing on the cake. I'm keen to hear thoughts from people who have used him in tourneys before.

Thanks for the thoughts!

Joel

Grumbledook - Jul 21, 2011 - 07:02 AM
Post subject: RE: Dark Elves in Resurrection Tourneys

I'd always try and fit in an apothecary rather than a more expensive lineman on any team. The advantage of being able to keep a KO on the pitch is pretty damn useful, or rescue a injured pricey player in the first half.

eldril is nice but too big a chunk of your money and has loner, dark elves are already expensive, i'd rather spend the extra on skills

have you tried pricing up a team with him in, compared to one without?

runejack - Jul 21, 2011 - 07:39 AM
Post subject: RE: Dark Elves in Resurrection Tourneys

Hi there,

Thank you for the reply! The KO is still stunned when you apoth them, right? Would you risk Apothing an SI or death in the first half or wait for a bad? If your first injury was a badly hurt skilless lineman in the first half would you use it?

I have done comparisons with Eldril. The favourite lineup with him vs without exchanges him for 2 linemen and 3 skills on 3 guys. I'm actually not everly concerned about his loner status as I doubt I'd ever block with him unless absolutely necessary. He has dodge and catch rerolls built in! It would only be for rerolling hypno gaze, but how often would you waste a reroll on that? Like you though, my biggest concern is the big chunk of money on one player.

Grumbledook - Jul 21, 2011 - 08:08 AM
Post subject: RE: Dark Elves in Resurrection Tourneys

an extra player and 3 more skills is probably a better option, your biggest problems will come with being outnumbered, dark elves can hold their own very well at even numbers or at a slight disadvantage, if it snowballs though you may well struggle (as most teams would)

as to using the apoth on a SI or death, it would depend what player it happened to, what turn it was, who else was injured and what my opponents team and lineup is, generally though I wouldn't bother if I had to say yes or no, there is a 50 50 chance I will just waste the apothecary

if you want to type out the full roster you were thinking, I'm happy to critique it (as may others)

runejack - Jul 21, 2011 - 08:34 AM
Post subject: RE: Dark Elves in Resurrection Tourneys

Thanks again,

I'm still looking at 4 or 5 options. I should probably narrow that down before postig one up. Theres so many ways to go!

Doubleskulls - Jul 21, 2011 - 04:40 PM
Post subject: RE: Dark Elves in Resurrection Tourneys

I think the apoth is good value in DE teams. Either just use on the first BH, or if you feel the risk worthwhile then on a skilled Blitzer or Witch.

I'd be thinking of 2 witches, 4 blitzers, runner, 4 line, 2 rr, apoth. That leaves 120k for 6 skills - leader on the runner, block & wrestle on the witches, probably one tackle on a blitzer and then you can sort of pick. Dodge is always good and having 4 of them would allow you to overwhelm teams without tackle or only a single tackler. Sidestep is also handy because you can combo nicely with the witches for some sideline frenzy fun.

runejack - Jul 22, 2011 - 03:53 AM
Post subject: Re: RE: Dark Elves in Resurrection Tourneys

Doubleskulls wrote:

...Sidestep is also handy because you can combo nicely with the witches for some sideline frenzy fun.

Not to sound overly daft, but could you elaborate a bit on this? My sideline play is probably the weakest part of my game. While I think I know where you are going here, I'd appreciate the insight!

Apocrypha - Jul 22, 2011 - 03:33 PM
Post subject:

I think what he's getting at is that with sidestep you can place your witch elf, if she's still standing after the hit, in a position favourable to you where in one hit or two (with frenzy) you can push the offender off the sideline to be dealt with by the crowd. And defensively to not end up off the pitch as well.

I don't think many people take grab in tournament settings when other skills can have more use.

runejack - Jul 22, 2011 - 08:13 PM
Post subject: Re: RE: Dark Elves in Resurrection Tourneys

Doubleskulls wrote:

...

I'd be thinking of 2 witches, ... block & wrestle on the witches, probably one tackle on a blitzer and then you can sort of pick. Dodge is always good and having 4 of them would allow you to overwhelm teams without tackle or only a single tackler. Sidestep is also handy because you can combo nicely with the witches for some sideline frenzy fun.

Apocrypha wrote:

When I first read his post that was my impression as well. However, re-reading it, I got the impression he meant to give it to another player. I'm wondering if he means you can put a player nearer to the sidelines to assist with the crowd push ad not have to worry about them suffering the same fate?

As tempting as it woud be to take 2 witch elves and give one of them sidestep, I'd be concerned about consistently blocking/blitzing with a player that doesn't have block or wrestle. Wouldn't this be a big gamble for a team with only 2 or 3 rerolls max? What do you think?

runejack - Jul 22, 2011 - 09:48 PM
Post subject:

Here are the lists Iâ€™m thinking about.
Requirements: 1250k, non-doubles skills only for 20k and max 1 per player, 0-2 star players
After previous discussion and my own thoughts, Iâ€™ve all but ruled out a 12 elf roster in favour of 11 players, an apoth and an extra skill. Iâ€™d be interested in hearing thoughts on a better roster with 12 players!

1 Witch Elf, 4 Blitzers, 1 Runner, 5 Line-elves, 2 rerolls, 1 apoth, 8 skills
Leader would be a given on the runner as 2 rerolls is too few in my opinion for Dark Elves. Most likely Wrestle on the Witch for the best chance at knocking down ball carriers. This leaves 6 skills. I could give each Blitzer a skill and two line-elves. This leaves 3 unskilled for the line of scrimmage to start. Top Blitzer skill thoughts would be between Dodge, Tackle, Leap, Sidestep, Strip Ball and Dauntless. Should any of these be auto includes? Top skills for the line-elves would be Dodge, Block, Kick, Wrestle, Sidestep and Fend ... and on the outside sneaky git or dirty player. Iâ€™ve never, ever liked fouling with Dark Elves and an 11 player line up though. Iâ€™m not sure the bonus of being more likely to get opponents off the pitch outweighs the likelihood of losing your own guy. Iâ€™d be very keen to hear thoughts on this!

2 Witch Elves, 4 Blitzers, 1 Runner, 4 Line-elves, 2 rerolls, 1 apoth, 6 skills
This list exchanges a Line-Elf and 2 skills for a Witch Elf. As well, I couldnâ€™t conceive of taking a Witch Elf without a skill-up. This means Wrestle on one, most likely Block on the other, and Leader once again on the Runner. This means only 3 skills to spread to the rest of the team (most likely blitzers, or do these need to be spread out?) Pros: This makes it less painful if a Witch Elf goes down and makes the sidelines even more dangerous. As well, itâ€™s arguably the best player on the squad; why not go 2 if you can? Cons: This is another expensive AV7 player to protect (albeit a blodger). There is only 1 blitz a turn so often this extra player will be assisting or just positioning. Getting the Witch Elf loses some diversity on the team with only the 3 skills left to pass around.

2 Witch Elves, 4 Blitzers, 1 Runner, 4 Line-elves, 3 rerolls, 6 skills
Giving up the apoth for a reroll means the runner can take Nerves of Steel, but the team becomes slightly more fragile with no one on the bench and no apoth for a badly hurt or 50% chance to recover a worse result.

1 Witch Elf, 4 Blitzers, 2 Runners, 4 Line-elves, 2 rerolls, 1 apoth, 7 skills, 1 FF (or coach or cheerleader)
The purpose of this roster would be to still be able to take a NoS Runner, but have the Leader as well (or conceivably 2 NoS runners and risk 2 rerolls for the game) This would leave 4 skills to distribute between Blitzers and Line-Elves (3/1 in my opinion). This list to me seems quite weak compared to the others. Thereâ€™s potential in the 2 NoS runners, but it just seems like too much of a 1 trick pony. Iâ€™d even consider dropping a Witch Elf or a Blitzer to make this a bit stronger ... and that already has me cringing!

4 Blitzers, 2 Runners, 5 Line-elves, 3 rerolls, 1 apoth, 7 skills
All out offense, no Witch Elf in the safety roll. *cringe*

The first 3 lists seem the strongest to me. Iâ€™d love to hear peopleâ€™s thoughts and opinions, and responses to the in-line questions above!

Thanks!

Joel

Grumbledook - Jul 24, 2011 - 06:06 AM
Post subject:

I took darkies to the Blood Bowl this year and didn't lose a single game with only one reroll and leader

you could drop one for 2 more skills and 1ff, very marginal though

otherwise I'd take your second lineup, it is pretty much the standard way to go, leader, block, wrestle, dodge, dodge and then perhaps tackle or strip ball

frenzy and wrestle can somewhat make up for the lack of tackle, if you did drop a reroll then you could take dodge on two more players, I don't know how useful that would be compared to a reroll over a whole game though

runejack - Jul 25, 2011 - 03:12 AM
Post subject:

Grumbledook wrote:

How often did you use your apothecary? How succesful was he? What were your toughest matchups? Did you miss kick? Tackle? Strip ball?

Grumbledook - Jul 25, 2011 - 07:06 AM
Post subject:

sure you miss what you don't have, but you don't have them cause you miss what you do pick more ;]

I took strip ball in the last game as I was playing amazons and it was very useful, I think I had tackle already but don't recall

matchups are generally more down to the opposing coach rather than the teams they are using, used my apoth every match, worth his weight in gold

runejack - Jul 26, 2011 - 04:59 AM
Post subject: Re: RE: Dark Elves in Resurrection Tourneys

Doubleskulls wrote:

... block & wrestle on the witches, probably one tackle on a blitzer...

I'm finding myself a bit hung up on wether I'd go block and wrestle, or duo wrestle if I took two witch elves. Would you mind elaborating on your thoughts here? (or anyone else who has thoughts on this)

Grumbledook - Jul 26, 2011 - 07:17 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Dark Elves in Resurrection Tourneys

I took one of each, whilst wrestle is useful having more players prone isn't great and in tournaments there are plenty of non block players

runejack - Jul 28, 2011 - 04:08 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Dark Elves in Resurrection Tourneys

The feedback I'm getting here is golden! Thank you!

So I think I've narrowed my choices down to three favourite lists. I'd love to hear some more comments!

List one:

4 Blitzers (3 Dodge)
2 Witch elves (Block and Wrestle)
1 Runner (leader)
4 Line Elves
2 Rerolls
1 Apothecary

List two:

4 Blitzers (3 Dodge and 1 Tackle, Leap, or more Dodge)
2 Witch Elves (Wrestle/Block and Wrestle)
5 Line Elves
3 Rerolls
1 Fan Factor

List Three:

4 Blitzers (2 Dodge, Tackle or Dodge, Strip Ball or Dodge)
1 Witch Elf (Wrestle)
1 Runner (Leader)
5 Line Elves (Kick/Block and Dodge)
2 Rerolls
1 Apothecary

I just can't see playing in a tournament with less than 3 rerolls using Dark Elves. Am I being silly?

I like the utility of 8 skills on an 11 player roster like list three shows. I also like the idea of 5-6 blodger/wrodgers. Which one wins out? 1, 2, 3 or 4) none of the above??

Grumbledook - Jul 28, 2011 - 04:12 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Dark Elves in Resurrection Tourneys

I really like going reroll heavy with teams, though dark elves can get away with 2, especially if you take dodge on a couple and have dodge on the witches already

you just have to be more selective about using rerolls

I wouldn't bother with leap or kick though, you will get far more use out of other skills over the length of the match, one witch is also an option, I think at this point now it is down to personal preferences and you should play some practice games with the rosters

runejack - Aug 22, 2011 - 08:29 AM
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Dark Elves in Resurrection Tourneys

Grumbledook wrote:

I thought I'd revisit this thread to give it a bit of closure on the results.

I decided to bend mostly to the majority of the feedback I received. My roster:

4 Blitzers - 3 with dodge, 1 with tackle
2 Witch Elves - block and wrestle
1 runner with leader
4 linemen - 1 with kick
1 reroll, 1 fan factor, 1 apothecary

What would be my random first opponent? A Dwarf team with a very competent coach. He had a lineup that included no runners. It was something like:
2 blitzers - sure hands and guard
2 trollslayers - mighty blow
7 or 8 blockers - 3? guard, 4 mighty blow
3? rerolls

I couldn't have asked for a worse match up as he stole my dodge advantage and laughed at my tackle. I still came reasonably close to a tie or a win, but in the end we were outmatched and outplayed. Having a couple more reolls would have left me feeling more comfortable doing more risky plays without feeling like it was all or nothing. I can't help but feel that is the big reason to try and take as many as possible.

I ended up 2 - 2 - 2 with my other loss being a major butt kicking against Nurgle, but also the game I enjoyed the most and learned the most from. My two ties were both games where we didn't finish due to time.

What I hope to take into my next tourney?
1. Make a roster that beats my hardest opponents, as the easier opponents tend to just work themselves out.
2. More rerolls.
3. 1 witch elf, potentially 0 runners.
4. Consider asking all my opponents if they wouldn't mind playing with a timer (the slow matches were not all my fault, but a timer would equalise it for both of us.)

I had a lot of fun and once again appreciate the advice I read here.

Joel