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Apedog |
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Post subject:
 Posted: Feb 25, 2003 - 09:55 AM
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Joined: Feb 17, 2003
Posts: 146
Status: Offline
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We all seem to be arguing about the same thing here, that Illegal Procedures should not stand in the way of the rest of the rules of the game and that common sense should prevail when the rules do not cover a situation that arises.
That said peoples opinions of 'common sense' differ so clear rules for common situations are desirable. |
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Munkey
Boom! He's on his back!
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Indigo |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 26, 2003 - 06:19 AM
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Da Warboss
Joined: Feb 12, 2003
England
Posts: 2168
Location: England
Status: Offline
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Dave wrote: Don't like the turnover rule, so we don't have problems like these
I'd quite like to hear what you mean by this... don't you use it?!?
Anyway, here's my opinion, whether you want it or not 
According to the rulebook, IP should only be used for forgetting to move your turn counter along, except for other specified examples.
However, I mailed Fanatic about the consequences for the following actions:
1) Having more than 2 players in a wide zone
2) Placing less than 3 players on the LOS
3) Setting up more than 11 players
4) Forgetting a Bonehead roll, intentional or not (along with Wild Animal, Really Stupid etc.)
The response I got was that according to the letter of the rules, an IP cannot be called for any of the above, BUT they can be enforced using the IP according to the league commisioners wishes. At the end of the day, doing any of the above is breaking the rules, and the LRB is at fault for not specifying a punishment - you can't simply let people get away with it or I will never bother to roll Bonehead and rely on my opponent watching, for example.
If coaches 'forget' to roll Bonehead, then they are making Ogres more powerful, which should be discouraged. They only need to be called once or twice and they will never forget again...
As for completing actions, have some common sense please! You fail a pickup and it scatters - true it's a turnover, but the movement of the ball isn't affected by the change of play!! The ball can bounce regardless of whose turn it is!
Bevan wrote: Suppose my player is one square from the endzone with no dodges required. If I just say "OK, I'll score right away.", can I get called on illgeal procedure to prevent the score (since I didn't actually move him). Or if I just push him forward one square, can I be called for IP to prevent the score. Is it an IP as soon as I touch the player, as soon as I declare an action for him, only after he has actually moved, or at the instant the opponent calls out "Illegal procedure".
The rulebook clearly states on pg 8 that:
"If he forgets to move the (turn) counter before taking an action with one of his players..."
AND
"You must declare which action a player is going to take before carrying out the action."
This shows that the declaration is seperate from the action, so simply saying you are going to move is not the same as actually moving. So I can say "I will throw to Player A" even if I don't have the ball! Until I actually proceed with the action then I cannot be called. Obviously, to score a TD you must move the model, so if you physically moved the mini then you can be called. As for my pass example, it seems sensible to say once the mini is moved or range measured an IP can be called.
At the end of the day, IP can only strictly be used in one or two occaisons. Common sense, both mine AND Fanatic's states that in cases of rules abuse then it is a suitable deterrent.
Nuff said 
But I welcome other opinions.... |
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NAF #60
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coachblacknife |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 26, 2003 - 04:09 PM
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Joined: Feb 16, 2003
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| "A coach that suffers a turnover must end his turn immediately ??? even if part way through a player???s action. The only exception to this is that Armour rolls and injury must still be made for players that have been knocked over." - Living Rulebook v2.0, page 8, last paragraph. |
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-Andy-
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"Changes made for changes' sake, does not make the changes great."
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ZanzerTem |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 26, 2003 - 04:34 PM
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Joined: Feb 14, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 98
Status: Offline
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| Thanks for the quote, now what exactly is your point? |
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Blood
Check out my teams here, courtesy of: FUMBBL.com
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Apedog |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 26, 2003 - 04:51 PM
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Joined: Feb 17, 2003
Posts: 146
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IP was used as a way of enforcing a rule which most people forgot during playtesting.
Using it to enforce other rules is not the correct way to handle the situation. Players should follow the rules at all times, otherwise they are cheating (intentionally or not).
It is not up to the LRB to specify punishments for not following the rules, players should follow them as closely as possible, accept that accidents do happen and deal with them as best they can.
Otherwise you have effectively introduced a rule that says if you cheat and get caught X happens. Not many games around with rules like this. |
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Munkey
Boom! He's on his back!
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destro |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 27, 2003 - 12:13 AM
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Joined: Feb 17, 2003
Posts: 46
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I agree with Apedog. IP is a rule to get people to remember to move thier turn marker, not something to be used against a player for forgetting another rule in the game. that would give IP way to much power over the rest of the rules and the outcome of the game.
-I can see the drool forming on the beards of some players now, "you were thinking about moving your guys before you moved your turn marker, thats illegal procedure!".
we play this game to have fun. It's not much fun for me if my opponents watching my every move waiting to call IP on me for rolling the wrong amount of block dice or some such nonsense. |
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Indigo |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 27, 2003 - 08:38 AM
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Da Warboss
Joined: Feb 12, 2003
England
Posts: 2168
Location: England
Status: Offline
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I can see your points, but consider the following few things.
1) Illegal procedure is supposed to, in fluff terms, represent your coach complaining to the ref about the opponents actions, e.g. too many players, invalid placements etc. Granted it doesn't really relate well to things like bonehead, but I did think it was worth pointing out.
2) Consider the following example.
My Ogre has the ball and is 6 squares from the end zone. I move my turn counter. I (genuinely) forget the Bonehead roll, move my Ogre 5 squares and Go-For-It. I pass the roll, and score a touchdown. My opponent then remembers I forgot Bonehead.
If we treat a forgotten Bonehead as an IP, then in this case I couldn't be called - I'd moved, rolled for Go-For-It and ended my turn, so the call would have been too late.
If we don't, then your ideas of 'correcting after the event' occur, and I am forced to roll for bonehead, then re-roll for the go-for-it. This means I have been rolling dice for the sake of it, and disregarding events that happened! How far back do you go with this? What if he remember after the following kick off, you go all the way back?!?! What if he remembers after the game ends?!?!? Come on...
Apedog wrote: It is not up to the LRB to specify punishments for not following the rules, players should follow them as closely as possible, accept that accidents do happen and deal with them as best they can.
Otherwise you have effectively introduced a rule that says if you cheat and get caught X happens. Not many games around with rules like this.
I know why you've said this, but it's not quite like that. I'm trying to differentiate between blatant cheating, such as re-rolling when opponents missed the first roll or moving models, and game mechanics that must be enforced to maintain balance.
I believe it IS up to the LRB to specify punishments, otherwise situations like this occur. Imagine that Ogre situation was in the Blood Bowl final - I'd be mighty pissed at losing the cup if you realized I forgot after the game ended... which is what would happen if we use your interpretation.
In most games, you and your opponent are not there to catch each other out at cheating - indeed, if I played someone I was forced to do that with, it'd be my first and last game with them. However, when playing a tense game and my opponent, in the heat of the action, mistakenly places a third man in the wide zone then, as sad as it is, I should benefit from his lapse in memory - after all, if that 3rd player is used to score a 1 turn TD then I have lost because of a situation where he broke the rules.
It teaches people to remember the fundamental game mechanics, and we have gone a long time now without anyone forgetting to move the TC, bonehead rolls, illegal player placements etc. so our interpretation has saved time, arguments, hassle and improved our overall enjoyment.
Then again, if you are willing to reset a situation because of an error, such as realising the kick off was invalid 3 turns ago, then so be it. I wouldn't want to be around for the arguments tho |
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NAF #60
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 27, 2003 - 10:58 AM
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Joined: Feb 10, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 2319
Location: United States of America
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For too many men I think I'm going to use this for our league (note that it hasn't happened yet and we're all pretty good about helping each other with the rules so it probably won't happen):
The onus is on <b>both</b> coaches to count to 11 when setting up a kickoff (how hard is it really?) so the player stays, but the ref gets involved. Make a roll per the foul rules. If the ref catches the infraction a random player gets ejected immediately. If not, the ref is still watching the team with too many men.
If the random player had the ball it gets thrown back in by the fans near the dugout's center sqaure (use standard rules). |
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Apedog |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 28, 2003 - 11:00 AM
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Joined: Feb 17, 2003
Posts: 146
Status: Offline
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Indigo, I wasn't suggesting that you re-do the turn well after the game. If you win the cup and after the game I realise you didn't roll bonehead then tough. It's a bit late to be worrying about that now and if it was a genuine mistake fair enough.
I'm not advocating resetting anything. If the extra player was in the wide zone and I didn't notice then again tough.
If he was an extra player altogether then I would choose a player to remove from the pitch (or roll randomly), in which case an IP call against him as well makes little difference.
I agree these should be genuine mistakes but therefore they should be fairly rare. I would not play against a deliberate cheater. |
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Munkey
Boom! He's on his back!
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KarlLindemann |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 28, 2003 - 04:22 PM
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Joined: Feb 19, 2003
Peotone, Illinois
Posts: 54
Location: Peotone, Illinois
Status: Offline
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| when IP is called you should finish what you are doing with that player who is going to make people still roll IP is too harsh most of the time stipid turn counter! |
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