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dlb1969 |
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Post subject: No Re-rolls a bit much...
 Posted: Feb 25, 2003 - 08:53 AM
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Joined: Feb 18, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 28
Location: Peotone
Status: Offline
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Aristodeimos wrote: Not making the Ogres "Big Guys" is a mistake. Not only are you snubbing your nose at Blood Bowl tradition, but you are increasing the value of the model without increasing it's price. This team should have to play without the benefit of team re-rolls to compensate for it's OVERWHELMING strength.
I do agree that this team is super strong over all, but I think banning them from using re-rolls on their own team would be a bit much. It's not like they are cheap to begin with. I tried making teams with all of the proposed rosters that were posted here and I had a rough time getting more than 1 re-roll to start. That means this guys will be paying a hefty price for re-rolls during the season. That being said, I think 80k should be the absolute least amount for any ogre team's re-rolls.
Dave |
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"I'll see you on the pitch little man!"
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Aristodeimos |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 25, 2003 - 09:29 AM
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Joined: Feb 24, 2003
Posts: 16
Status: Offline
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| Yes, not using team re-rolls would be a huge detriment to this team, but there is more at stake here than just playability and fairness...there is history and integrity to the Warhammer world. One of my teams is a goblin team and I've long suffered from Jervis' view that goblins should suck and not be made on par with other races. IMO, ogres fall in the same category. They are boneheaded big guys. They don't care to make practice...they don't go to school to get smarter, and playing Blood Bowl is just an excuse to smash things. The ball is an after thought. |
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Aristodeimos |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 25, 2003 - 09:33 AM
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Joined: Feb 24, 2003
Posts: 16
Status: Offline
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Milo,
Fair enough. I help run a league in the DC area with a rather sizeable "minor league" which can help playtest your team (Skummy is also in my league). We have plenty of "beat-down" coaches that would love to playtest this team. We'll be sure to share the results....
~Aristodeimos |
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skummy |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 25, 2003 - 10:59 AM
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Joined: Feb 11, 2003
Posts: 506
Status: Offline
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Aristodeimos&Milo:
One problem I have with a lot of playtests is that they throw all of the experimental teams into one league and let them beat the crap out of one another. The problem is that you can't tell whether the Chaos Pact and the Ogre experimental teams are broken if they keep playing one another all the time. I'd like to see the Ogre team playtested for 10-15 games in a normal league and put the results out there for everyone to see, including what the rosters looked like before the game. Maybe our league could do something like this in the minors, or as one off games that aren't attached to the league. |
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Squiggoth |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 26, 2003 - 01:33 AM
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Joined: Feb 11, 2003
Posts: 678
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I can do that too if you like. Our league includes almost every team except for Undead teams, High Elves and Dark Elves (but the last two teams are coming). It might also be fair to let the Ogres be used by different Coaches (I don't see myself as the perfect Coach for playtesting with my ranking  ).
Martijn |
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The only coach worse than Dick Advocaat 
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GalakStarscraper |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 28, 2003 - 11:56 AM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 1562
Status: Offline
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Code:
0-12 Ogre Blocker 5 5 1 9 Mighty Blow, Really Stupid, TSkull,
Big Guy
100k G/S
0-4 Ogre Blitzer 5 5 2 9 Bonehead, Mighty Blow, TSkull, TTM
120k G/S
0-4 Goblin Catcher 6 2 3 7 Dodge, Stunty, Right Stuff
40k A
70k Rerolls
This was the test roster that TBB has currently agreed on for testing. The MBBL, SVBBL, ECBBL, EAGBBL, and CHUBB leagues.
Now fine points. The MBBL will be using the BB Mag #1 version of Really Stupid which read that Bonehead players cannot help Really Stupids with the +2 bonus. This was changed when the BB2k1 rules came out and the LRB was printed (not sure why, but if you have BB Mag #1 or BB Compedium #1 you can see the rule was changed for the BB2k1 rules).
Galak |
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dlb1969 |
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Post subject: Galak...
Posted: Feb 28, 2003 - 02:03 PM
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Joined: Feb 18, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 28
Location: Peotone
Status: Offline
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GalakStarscraper wrote: Code:
0-12 Ogre Blocker 5 5 1 9 Mighty Blow, Really Stupid, TSkull,
Big Guy
100k G/S
0-4 Ogre Blitzer 5 5 2 9 Bonehead, Mighty Blow, TSkull, TTM
120k G/S
0-4 Goblin Catcher 6 2 3 7 Dodge, Stunty, Right Stuff
40k A
70k Rerolls
This was the test roster that TBB has currently agreed on for testing. The MBBL, SVBBL, ECBBL, EAGBBL, and CHUBB leagues.
Now fine points. The MBBL will be using the BB Mag #1 version of Really Stupid which read that Bonehead players cannot help Really Stupids with the +2 bonus. This was changed when the BB2k1 rules came out and the LRB was printed (not sure why, but if you have BB Mag #1 or BB Compedium #1 you can see the rule was changed for the BB2k1 rules).
Galak
I see that the ogre blockers have the big guy characteristic. Does that mean they can't use the team's re-rolls?
Dave |
_________________
"I'll see you on the pitch little man!"
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GalakStarscraper |
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Post subject: Re: Galak...
Posted: Feb 28, 2003 - 07:04 PM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 1562
Status: Offline
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dlb1969 wrote: I see that the ogre blockers have the big guy characteristic. Does that mean they can't use the team's re-rolls?
Correct the Blockers cannot use team rerolls. Only the Blitzers and Goblins.
The goal here was to be as true to the fluff as possible. The Ogre team hit like a ton of bricks but the fluff says that the Ogres were HORRIBLE Bloodbowl players. So the Blocker is basically a less agile Ogre who is much more stupid. Thus the Really Stupid and Big Guy on him.
Now again, I recommend testing this team with the OLD version of Really Stupid that didn't let Boneheads help the Really Stupids NOT the NEW version in the LRB. This is one more thing that helps balance the team if only the Goblins can make the Blockers less stupid (which seems right to me).
Galak |
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Mestari |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 01, 2003 - 01:36 AM
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Joined: Feb 11, 2003
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And just to bug Galak, I say that the TBB does not stand united behind the exact roster that Galak presents. There are a few points that do not meet complete agreement:
Namely:
-Big Guy/No Big Guy on the blockers
-MB or no MB on the blockers
-Gen/ST or only ST access on the blockers
(blocker cost should be adjusted accordingly)
-Rerolls cost: 70k or 80k
Most importantly I oppose denying the majority of the team from using rerolls. Really Stupid (and hopefully not giving them MB or gen access) will keep the players in check. Not allowing them use team rerolls simply is too much of an exception.
I would much rather see playtesting so that the blockers won't have BG and if they're too good then perhaps give them BG to compensate. |
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Teemu Tokola aka Mestari
Member #52
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GalakStarscraper |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 01, 2003 - 05:45 AM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 1562
Status: Offline
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Mestari wrote: And just to bug Galak, I say that the TBB does not stand united behind the exact roster that Galak presents. There are a few points that do not meet complete agreement:
Since Mestari "bugged" me, I feel okay to "bug" back.
Mestari is correct that there were 4 points where there was debate related to the Blockers. Again I really wish everyone would just drop the ST only access since there are only 5 normal ST skill available, and this create one more special rule for a player (what do we do when you make a skill roll and there are no skill left to take). I don't know Milo's stance on this as he hasn't commented about the issue of ST only access since it was pointed out that there are only 5 ST normal skills, but I know Chet has commented that he's against a new exception to the rules. So please just give this one a rest. Beyond this point that shouldn't even be a point is the following option.
Another version of the team possible would be to lose Mighty Blow and Big Guy on the Ogre Blocker keeping his price the same and raising rerolls to 80k.
However, I will point out that 5 leagues have stepped forward to the test the roster I posted from the TBB discussion, and no one has proposed to test another variant at this point. So is there disagreement .. yes ... have the disagreers had enough support to get a different version tested ... not yet that I aware of. I only mention this to show the degrees of disagreement on TBB.
Galak |
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Mestari |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 01, 2003 - 06:45 AM
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Joined: Feb 11, 2003
Posts: 407
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GalakStarscraper wrote: Another version of the team possible would be to lose Mighty Blow and Big Guy on the Ogre Blocker keeping his price the same and raising rerolls to 80k.
A compromise I'd be willing to make, if the interesting situation of a ST access only -player is considered too interesting by the authorities. |
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Teemu Tokola aka Mestari
Member #52
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Dave |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 01, 2003 - 07:26 AM
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da Veiz-Prez
Joined: Feb 10, 2003
Netherlands
Posts: 895
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
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Hey Mestari. I partially agree with your comments but they seem like quite natural to weaken the team should it be too powerfull.
IMHO the discussion centered around these four items because of the difficulty to see how tough / bad the team will be in reality.
If they are too strong, remove something like MB, or givvem RS, For example |
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