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Bikerbob |
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Post subject: To Heal or not to heal, that is the question!
 Posted: Sep 13, 2004 - 01:18 PM
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Joined: Sep 01, 2004
Posts: 63
Status: Offline
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OK, so I will be entering a team in the up comming Spike Tournament.
My first BB Tournament.
I see team make up being vastly different from making one for League play. Not only from the race and makeup of the team, but wether to buy an apothicary or not.
Since no injuries or death will carry over to another game, no players that might have a skill will be lost, I am finding it hard to justify the $50 on a single save roll, when maybe investing it in another RR might be better. Or upgrading a player to a better type with more skills that can be used over and over durring the course of a game.
What are your opinions on Apothicaries in Tournament play???
James (Bikerbob) |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 13, 2004 - 03:07 PM
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Joined: Oct 24, 2003
Posts: 1671
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Some races don't need an apothecary (e.g. dwarves and orcs). Most teams however benefit a lot from having one, as it can do three things for you. First, it's like having an extra player to work with. Second, it allows you to keep an expensive player in the game longer. Third, it can allow one of your players to remain on the field in a critical situation (e.g. the only player in scoring range).
For most races (AV9 teams like orcs and dwarves being the exception), i would never attend a tournament with less than 12 players. And for all races except goblins and halflings (whose players cost less than an apoth), i would rather have an apothecary than an extra lineman.
I would always take an apothecary to a tournament unless i was playing dwarves, orcs, goblins or halflings (or teams that are not allowed an apothecary obviously). |
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Old_Man_Monkey |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 13, 2004 - 03:44 PM
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Joined: Apr 16, 2003
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Posts: 1252
Location: Undisclosed
Status: Offline
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| After 18 months of highly varied tournament play under differing rulesets, I have to say Zombie's reasoning is spot on... having an apoth is critical for the teams he has listed. Despite a current run of apoth failures in my most recent tourneys, I still believe an apothecary is crucial and can make the difference between losing and winning... |
_________________
Tournament Organizer - The Three Kingdoms Challenge
Semi-retired NAF staff
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Sputnik |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 14, 2004 - 05:40 AM
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Joined: Feb 11, 2003
Posts: 512
Status: Offline
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Interseting. In my oppinion it is the opposite.
After experimenting with skaven and getting a rough idea of what to do with them on the pitch, I must say that an extra lineman (or rat, in this case) was more valuable to me.
With the low AV I constantly get a k.o here, and a k.o there (let's assume this would be true for Norse and Amazons as well). Further, I would probably never apo a k.o. result in turn three of the first half. However, if this guy doesn't come back and another one got off the field as well, this means being outnumbered early. Consequently less possibility to defend open space, less assist possibilities, less threads the opponent has to take care of, and less goats to mark players later on.
Thus, my personal experience (granted, with skaven in this case) tells me that another fresh body to even up numbers is most of the time more valuable in tourny play than having an apo (for the three mentioned races).
But I agree that with dwarfs or orcs I would not take an apo anyway.
And for some races it just depends on the team roster I choose. With lizzies I usually don't like an apo but an extra skink. All guys are the same, eiher saurus or skink, so I don't have any positional players I really depend on or need to protect. And with skinks breaking easily, one more from the bench as a guarantee is more welcome than trying to get the injured one back. However, if I come up with 50k extra, than no skink but apo. Something like that.
On the other hand, not much is more entertaining than the opponents face expression after injuring a wardancer, seeing the opponent using his apo (successfully), seeing him cheering a bit about that and then using the dirty player in the same turn to send the wardancer to the injury box again......
Sputnik |
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Old_Man_Monkey |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 14, 2004 - 07:30 AM
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Joined: Apr 16, 2003
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Posts: 1252
Location: Undisclosed
Status: Offline
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Sputnik - I agree about the apoth of a simple linerat, but you generally play with a RO - doesn't an apoth become important for the RO or SV, or in tourney play, the GR that has acquired a skill (or more...)?
Surely it's not been just KO'd linerats you've had to contend with - otherwise, that explains a great deal...   |
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Tournament Organizer - The Three Kingdoms Challenge
Semi-retired NAF staff
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Sputnik |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 14, 2004 - 09:13 AM
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Joined: Feb 11, 2003
Posts: 512
Status: Offline
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To stick to skaven for now:
the rat ogre is the only one I consider being really worth the apo most of the time, that's true.  And I seem to be good at kicking players like him out of games early because I fail my own bonehead roll.  But I shape up!
Linerats are the ones to be everywhere I just need a body, that's it. I usually have plenty at the start of the match to provide my opponent with enough casualties to keep him in a good mood. But I rarely would use the apo for a linerat. 
Gutter runners come in bunches, too. I have two or three, sometimes four of them. One of them is usually expendable, loosing two surely annoying. But the most common skills for them in a tournament are block, sprint etc. Hardly something to put the franchise tag on. They are a big target, too. So they get injured frequently. Apo? Well, I would if I had one, but I don't think it is worth having the apo because of that. I am not dependent from the presence of a gutter runner to be able to stay in the game.
Some coaches think skaven throwers are not worth to have on your roster. But even if, they are still expendable if you have some runners left. No apo here.
Storm vermins are something to be considered healing, I agree on that. Especially if they have a skill like tackle I really need in that specific game. But I use them as blockers most of the time, with the RO going blitzing. I go with Zombie here: a linerat with block does the same job for 40k less. Again usually not the most important key player, and annoing if out, but not a necessity for my play.
So I agree with you, OMM, that a SV, GR or a RO is surely worth (!) healing (especially since the apo costs only 50k but you positional player is worth more, as compared to the line rat). But my teams are rarely build around only one player and I can live without that one (not as well, but at least there is always plan B, plan C...)
However, my experience in tournys is that with skaven I can stand a good fight with most teams where I can get more players in a certain area than he does, while not being out of position covering other areas. But for that I need players. And once being outnumbered, it goes downhill from there. My opponents get more two die blocks because I cannot mark players, he can get more assist where he needs them because no rat is 'just in the way', he can hunt down SVs or the RO because you can't fight back, and in the end he blocks and I can't, he protects the ball carrier and I can't, he marks my players and still is free to care about the ball, forcing me to desparate measures.
Thus I believe in summary that having another replacement early makes up for the losses and keeps me in the game long enough to get the egde before the inevitable happens. With an apo at hand, I would still lose the coin toss from time to time and get a k.o. or an injury for a line rat before touching my turn marker the first time. But I would nevertheless sit on the apo early in the game in case one of my positional players gets hurt. I would probably not heal the first loss of a GR if it was in turn four. But I would not be able to fight back as much as with an extra line rat at hand for the next drive if the k.os don't come back immediately.
But that's just my personal experience, based on my style of play. Other tactics might require specific players or are based on totally different things where an apo is worth more than I could think of now.
And maybe I should try to heal the first cas happening to one of may players, regardless of which one it is, to find out about the difference. Good idea actually. 
Sputnik |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 14, 2004 - 11:50 AM
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Joined: Oct 24, 2003
Posts: 1671
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Sure, having another replacement early helps. However, the other replacement doesn't necessarily come early. If you're playing against dwarves and get a CAS against you on turn 1, you can either wait 8 turns for them to score before bringing in new blood, and by that time you've probably got few players left to work with; or you can apoth your player right away and use him for 16 turns instead of just 9.
I think your problem is that you're not using the apothecary right. If you lose a player on turn 1, you should use the apothecary right there instead of waiting for a bigger injury that might never happen. If you did that, you might see the value in having an apothecary. |
_________________
They will slowly add bits of the vault in on each RR leading up to 2007, starting with LRB 4.0, so it will be a slow and agonising death for BB.
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Sputnik |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 14, 2004 - 12:48 PM
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Joined: Feb 11, 2003
Posts: 512
Status: Offline
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maybe you are right. I will test it.
So you suggest to use the apo on the first cas, regardless of the position?
Sputnik |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 14, 2004 - 01:27 PM
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Joined: Oct 24, 2003
Posts: 1671
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It depends on a lot in reality. How likely are your positional players to get hurt. How much they cost compared to your linemen. How long you expect you'll have to wait to see one hurt. How long from the time of the current injury until the end of the drive. How much of the game is left to be played.
The idea is to use the apothecary as early as possible on as expensive a player as possible. The idea is to maximize the product of player value times the number of turns he's made available. |
_________________
They will slowly add bits of the vault in on each RR leading up to 2007, starting with LRB 4.0, so it will be a slow and agonising death for BB.
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