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juergenOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: May 16, 2007 - 02:49 AM
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      Lycos wrote:
This is not an official answer Darkson, but I dont think it is. I recall asking Woody this question months ago when over his place and I think he said that if it was, with 9 games, it could have too much influence on the ranking system. Now that may have changed since. (But I recall the Dutch guys Jelmer, Milo, Benji asking me this at the Dutch Open and I knew the answer from Woody by then, so it could have over Xmas I asked that?)

Risking that the organizers/coaches of 24h BB hate me, but is this "fair" compared to the upcoming 24h's of BB? According to the tourney info ( http://www.bloodbowl.net/naf.php?page=tournaments&op=view&id=508 ) they plan to play about 11 games! Even if they only manage 9 or 10 we would have the same ammount of games as the world cup will be.

Since neither of the tourneys is a major, the k-value calculation will probably be the same (for non majors its number of coaches OR 30 - whichever is lower. So if 24h makes 30 coaches it's identical to the WC)

I see only two "fair" ways to solve this:
1) make WC count for rating
2) don't allow 24h count for rating

I would prefer #1. People that are afraid of loosing points can choose to not have this tourney calculated see: NAF Tournament Sanction procedure (http://www.bloodbowl.net/index.php?name=Sections&req=viewarticle&artid=24&page=1 )
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No member has to play for Coach Rating points. If he or she views a tournament ruleset particularly disadvantageous to his/her chosen race, they can simply opt out of putting Coach Rating points on the line. Note that this has to be for the entire tournament, they can???t pick and choose which games will count for rankings, and it has to be declared prior to the opening game, i.e: pre tournament not during or post tournament.

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Roller
Post subject:   PostPosted: May 16, 2007 - 03:51 AM



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      juergen wrote:
      Lycos wrote:
This is not an official answer Darkson, but I dont think it is. I recall asking Woody this question months ago when over his place and I think he said that if it was, with 9 games, it could have too much influence on the ranking system.


Since neither of the tourneys is a major, the k-value calculation will probably be the same (for non majors its number of coaches OR 30 - whichever is lower. So if 24h makes 30 coaches it's identical to the WC)

I see only two "fair" ways to solve this:
1) make WC count for rating
2) don't allow 24h count for rating

I would prefer #1. People that are afraid of loosing points can choose to not have this tourney calculated see: NAF Tournament Sanction procedure (http://www.bloodbowl.net/index.php?name=Sections&req=viewarticle&artid=24&page=1 )
      Quote:

No member has to play for Coach Rating points. If he or she views a tournament ruleset particularly disadvantageous to his/her chosen race, they can simply opt out of putting Coach Rating points on the line. Note that this has to be for the entire tournament, they can???t pick and choose which games will count for rankings, and it has to be declared prior to the opening game, i.e: pre tournament not during or post tournament.


1) Darkson asked if the WC would count for the rating as a Major or as a normal tournament.

2) Lycos answered (un-official) that it wouldn't count as a Major becouse off it would stress the rating.

I have no doubt that the WC will count for the rating.

I think that there are no problems if the 24h's of Amersdoorf count for naf rating. Shocked

I think that the naf ranking shouldn't be too much protected as something very important. It's just for fun and the rule sets of the tournament are too much different. For example in the naf ranking are inserted match for teams with TV 105 playing against TV 106 teams Wink


Last edited by Roller on May 16, 2007 - 04:34 AM; edited 2 times in total
 
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juergenOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: May 16, 2007 - 04:21 AM
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I should get more sleep Embarassed Embarassed Embarassed Embarassed

sorry for all confusion I might have caused

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DaveOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: May 16, 2007 - 12:59 PM
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the 24h tournament wil not have the full amount of possible coaches I think .. probabely about 12-18

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MorpheousOffline
Post subject: Totally Confused  PostPosted: May 18, 2007 - 09:44 PM



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I am really confused by the whole rankings/no rankings, Major Tournament, etc.
Since I will be playing in my first 3 tournaments and will get some sort of a ranking. I was under the impression that playing in the WC was going to allow me the opportunity to play against some of the best coaches in the world. By doing so, I thought that would affect my rank. If anyone has the time or the engery to explain this to me or point me in the right direction, that would be great!

-Schawn
 
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DaveOffline
Post subject: RE: Totally Confused  PostPosted: May 19, 2007 - 12:12 AM
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the ranking works as follows:

you get points for a victory, none for a draw and get points deducted from your starting 150 if you lose.
How many points you get / lose depends on the size of a tournament. If you play in a major (Blood Bowl, Chaos Cup, Spike etc) you'll get / lose more points (similar to a grand slam tournament in tennis)

It's quite important to realize that the points you get when you win are deducted from your opponents' ranking. (thus the average ove rall the coaches stays 150)

If the opponent you beat has a ranking higher than yours you'll get extra points. I don't know exactly how the calculation goes but with big differences you'll get a lot of extra points. Needless to say it works the other way around if you lose.

The idea of the world cup is that, if possible, all the coaches of the world, thus also the best ones, are there. At that tournament you'll get the chance to compete against them all, maybe not play them, maybe you will play them (if you're lucky) but overall you will compete agianst them.

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LycosOffline
Post subject: RE: Totally Confused  PostPosted: May 19, 2007 - 03:43 AM
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The terminology we use Schawn, is "Zero Sum". By that, if you took the time to add every single ranking in our database, the average score would be exactly 150. For every 200 ranking (and there are only 48 at this time with more than 200) there is another ranking at 100 (probably with Halflings and Gobbos).

The size of the tournament does affect things. If you have 12 of you the gains and losses are smaller than if there are 28 of you but the system is "capped" so that if there are 90+ coaches it only allows as if a max of 30 coaches were present. This was done because the Europeans were getting large 70+ tournaments were as Canada, USA and Oz were struggling to get 30 at anything less than a major.

Majors: As in the BB fluff there are 4 key tournaments, Spike, Chaos, the BB and Dungeonbowl. These then carried double points as they are the premier evernts. Dungeonbowl is Germany, Spike Canada, Chaos USA and the BB Europe. It was then agreed that this was a bit unfair on Oz coaches so a 5th Major was introduced for them. (I think that is Cancon).

Bottom line -- Picture an event of 30 coaches and first game your rookie Humans draw my zons say while two guys next door to us are both rookie 150 teams. Whoever wins that 150 v 150 game will get 5.5 points and the other will lose that. If its a draw they both stay at 150. Now take our game -My zons are 198 or something so if win I wont get the same 5.5 points, I will get less because the systems understands that having got to 198, I should know what I am doing with them. If you win you will get MORE than 5.5 because again, the system understands that you have scalped a higher team so you would probably get 7.5 I guess. If we draw, I would have gone down and you would go up, unlike the two 150 coaches.

To give you some examples: .. go to the rankings mid next week, click on one of my teams and that takes you to all my tourneys, go right down the bottom and click on The Bloodbowl 07. First game I played Roller who had a Norse ranking of about 210 to my Dwarves 162. As this was a major....I would think I get 10 pts for that but just clicking around the rankings you can see the sorts of gains and losses coaches get.
Example 2: On my stats still....take a look at the Dutch open 2007. My record with Amazons was 1/4/0 so I didnt lose a game but click on the link for the Do and my stats will come up at the bottom and it will show that all of the coaches I played were lower than me to start with so even though I didnt lose a game....my ranking went down by 3 or 4 points
Hope that makes sense
 
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Roller
Post subject: Re: RE: Totally Confused  PostPosted: May 19, 2007 - 09:04 AM



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      Lycos wrote:
The terminology we use Schawn, is "Zero Sum". By that, if you took the time to add every single ranking in our database, the average score would be exactly 150. For every 200 ranking (and there are only 48 at this time with more than 200) there is another ranking at 100 (probably with Halflings and Gobbos).

The size of the tournament does affect things. If you have 12 of you the gains and losses are smaller than if there are 28 of you but the system is "capped" so that if there are 90+ coaches it only allows as if a max of 30 coaches were present. This was done because the Europeans were getting large 70+ tournaments were as Canada, USA and Oz were struggling to get 30 at anything less than a major.

Majors: As in the BB fluff there are 4 key tournaments, Spike, Chaos, the BB and Dungeonbowl. These then carried double points as they are the premier evernts. Dungeonbowl is Germany, Spike Canada, Chaos USA and the BB Europe. It was then agreed that this was a bit unfair on Oz coaches so a 5th Major was introduced for them. (I think that is Cancon).

The 5 Majors have a cap higher than others tournaments. I'm not sure but it should be 60 coaches, right?
      Lycos wrote:

Bottom line -- Picture an event of 30 coaches and first game your rookie Humans draw my zons say while two guys next door to us are both rookie 150 teams. Whoever wins that 150 v 150 game will get 5.5 points and the other will lose that. If its a draw they both stay at 150. Now take our game -My zons are 198 or something so if win I wont get the same 5.5 points, I will get less because the systems understands that having got to 198, I should know what I am doing with them. If you win you will get MORE than 5.5 because again, the system understands that you have scalped a higher team so you would probably get 7.5 I guess. If we draw, I would have gone down and you would go up, unlike the two 150 coaches.

To give you some examples: .. go to the rankings mid next week, click on one of my teams and that takes you to all my tourneys, go right down the bottom and click on The Bloodbowl 07. First game I played Roller who had a Norse ranking of about 210 to my Dwarves 162. As this was a major....I would think I get 10 pts for that but just clicking around the rankings you can see the sorts of gains and losses coaches get.

And, obviusly, I loose that 10 points. Laughing
 
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DoubleskullsOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: May 19, 2007 - 09:17 AM
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This seemed to be drifting a bit off topic and wasn't really directed at the WC itself.

Majors get a K value of approximately 15, non majors are capped at just over 10.

K value imfluences the number of points up for grabs in each game (which as others have said is zero sum). The more likely you are to win (according the the formula) the less you gain if you do - or if you lose the more your opponent does.

It all works out (and TR/TV differences are taken into account).

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MorpheousOffline
Post subject: Totally Confused - Part Deux  PostPosted: May 19, 2007 - 09:48 AM



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Thanks Lycos for explaining that. However, now I feel I am even more confused than before. Sooooo I think I am just going to go with my own view on this whole ranking thing.

Go to Tournament X.
Pay my entry fee.
Play Bloodbowl and have fun.
Just try to win all my games so I dont have to worry about calculating ratings. Smile Granted I know that sounds easier than done. I just want to play against the best coaches in the world. Nothing like coming home and have the following to dialogue.

"So Schawn.. how did you do at your little guy football tournament thing in England?"

"Oh you mean the Blood Bowl World cup?"

"Yeah"

"Oh wow! I played against this one dude from (enter home country here) who was ranked (enter high rank here) in the world. I got my brains bashed in!"

"Oh. So you had fun then."

"Yeah I had a blast!"

Something similar to that. Smile
 
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DoubleskullsOffline
Post subject: RE: Totally Confused - Part Deux  PostPosted: May 19, 2007 - 12:38 PM
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Best thing to do is ignore the ranking whores and just have fun!

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LycosOffline
Post subject: RE: Totally Confused - Part Deux  PostPosted: May 19, 2007 - 01:52 PM
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Amen. Schawn, you got it spot on and Doubleskulls is right. Just play the game.... that is really all that matters at the end of the day. And sorry Roller..
 
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Roller
Post subject: Re: RE: Totally Confused - Part Deux  PostPosted: May 21, 2007 - 02:12 AM



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      Lycos wrote:
And sorry Roller..


Don't worry. You played better than me and you won.

I hope to gain back that points in the same place, WH world, in october Wink
 
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jelmerOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: May 21, 2007 - 03:31 AM



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      juergen wrote:
Risking that the organizers/coaches of 24h BB hate me, but is this "fair" compared to the upcoming 24h's of BB?


Well, don't worry... we are not hatefull guys Very Happy
 
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juergenOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: May 21, 2007 - 03:51 AM
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is was a big misunderstanding anyway Wink

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