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tenwit |
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Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Dark Elf Assassin - doubles on first
 Posted: Oct 20, 2008 - 07:47 PM
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Joined: Sep 06, 2007
Posts: 48
Status: Offline
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AK_Dave wrote: The Multi-Stab has proven to be very effective. He's not going to earn any SPP this way so its pretty much a dead-end route, but hopefully it'll be a dead end to a lot of enemy players before they catch up to him.
If all you do is line him up and do two stabs, that's true. But you're not required to do that.
- After the first turn, you probably won't be able to multiblock (because you won't have 2 targets). In this case, only stab if the target has block. Accept the occasional bothdown result, it might get you SPPs. And sure your second skill will be Block, won't it?
- Just don't use MB. Every now and then, just block. Only do this against linos with no block or dodge though.
- He still has AG4, and he'll be fairly close to the middle of the pitch after kickoff. So on turn 2, hand-off to him and pass to your forward receiver. 1SPP.
I wouldn't recommend scoring with him though. Everyone else on your team (even runners!) has better survivability. Give them the 3SPPs. |
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AK_Dave |
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Dark Elf Assassin - doubles on f
Posted: Oct 21, 2008 - 12:48 PM
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Joined: Nov 29, 2005
Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 102
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Status: Offline
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Good points, tenwit. Here's how I've used him to date:
1. Recieving, I put him on the LOS to carve a hole. Its my first roll. Then I let his Lino escort bash some clearance around him. After that I use him to chase and pressure enemy players. I waltzed him into the middle of a scrum and dared my opponent to throw a 1D block on him, which didn't happen because a turnover occured beforehand. Moves like that set me up to MultiStab again. I like to get him the ball and use him as a thrower for SPP. If my opponent is threatening to gang up on him with some fouling, I make him my designated hitter with hopes that he'll foul out before being injured himself.
2. Kicking, I put him just behind the LOS supporting the Linos. Dare ya to follow up on those blocks, buckie. He's like a free safety in my backfield.
Additional skills: I'm not considering Block for him. I think he'll be more effective with Dodge/Sidestep. Then he'll be something of a pinball. You'd hate to hit him lest he wind up with even better MultiStab field position. |
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NAF # 8106
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AK_Dave |
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Dark Elf Assassin - doubles on first ski
Posted: Nov 10, 2008 - 12:21 PM
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Joined: Nov 29, 2005
Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 102
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Status: Offline
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After six games with Multiple Block & Stab, the League Commissioner asked me to revisit my skill choice and offered to allow me to retcon a different skill than Multiple Block for the Assassin. The combo is too effective, generates too much compaint, has yet to generate anything worse than a MNG, and at the same time I'm a bit disappointed that the player has never picked up another SPP. Not one. Stab doesn't build SPP, and now the guy is just standing at the line taking a beating and dishing one out. He's become a "gotcha" player. As in, you do all your easy moves and line up to get a nice 2D/3D hit on him and then fumble the ball elsewhere on the field. Thanks for lining up on the Assassin and then just standing there, I think I'll shank you very much. So its not that the combo is illegal, and I personally don't think that it is "too effective" (he's usually responsible for putting 1-2 players per game in the dugout) but we've decided that for us, the combo is just "wrong".
So I think I'll switch it to Guard.
I am tempted by Mighty Blow. That would fit with the Assassin meme as a "CAS machine". But then I'd never stab, unless in a desperate negative-die block. Maybe I should take Mighty Blow after all. That'd dramatically boost his odds of getting more SPP.
After 7 games I have 13 skill advances, 35 & 30 SPP on my lead scorers, and in those 13 rolls I've hit doubles ONCE and a +AG. Everything else has been a normal skill. If only I had somebody else who had rolled doubles and already has Guard. I think its the most useful Strength skill on a DE team, and the one guy who can get it is the wrong guy to get it.
My brain tells me the TEAM needs Guard. My gut tells me this PLAYER needs Mighty Blow. |
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NAF # 8106
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AK_Dave |
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Dark Elf Assassin - doubles on first ski
Posted: Nov 10, 2008 - 12:48 PM
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Joined: Nov 29, 2005
Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 102
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Status: Offline
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Here's the full team at this point:
Blitzer: +1AG, Dodge, Leap
Blitzer: Dodge, Pass Block
Blitzer: Dodge
Runner: Dodge, Nerves of Steel
Runner: Dodge
Witch Elf: Block
Assassin: Mighty Blow (?)
Lineman: Kick
Lineman: Kick-Off Return
2x Lineman
RR=3
FF=10 (free)
AP=Y
$$=140K
TV=143 |
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NAF # 8106
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Cramy |
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Dark Elf Assassin - doubles on first ski
Posted: Nov 10, 2008 - 08:23 PM
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Joined: Nov 17, 2006
Canada
Posts: 403
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
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Wouldn't put Mighty Blow on the Assassin. He should stab most of the time, so Mighty Blow is not the best. And getting CAS is an uncertain thing to gain SPP.
If you want him to gain SPPs, then score with him.
I'm extremely surprised that you feel that Multiple Block is too powerful on this guy. Yes, it's pretty good, but without any other skills, your opponents should be able to get him out of the game. My Multiple Block Assassin spent most of his time on his butt, if he wasn't in the casualty box. But oh well, if you're OK with it, than it's all good.
I agree with you that the DE team needs as many Mighty Blow and Guard as they can get. For the Assassin, I'd go with Guard then. He stands on the line, stabs, then helps his buddies hit the guys away, especially if the Assassin missed his stab. Very useful on an Assassin I think.
His next skill would be to complement his Shadowing, Stab and Guard skills. Side Step is good for that. I like Dodge as well, so that you can reposition your shadower / guarder to another position with much less risk, and it provides some protection. After that, Diving Tackle is also good. |
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The Ottawa Gatineau Blood Bowl League, fine purveyors of Blood Bowl tournaments since 2007. Home to the Deathbowl, CCKO and Daggerbowl.
Cramy
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AK_Dave |
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Dark Elf Assassin - doubles on first ski
Posted: Nov 11, 2008 - 12:38 AM
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Joined: Nov 29, 2005
Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 102
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Status: Offline
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I don't think Multiple Block is too powerful. The Commissioner's team is Orc, and he's never been hurt by Multiple Stab. But the combo has generated complaint and he "invited" me to retcon the skill. Its a friendly local league. We're all friends. I'll go with the flow.
I look at it this way: with Multiple Block & Stab, I basically set him up for a stabby-stabby and every time I receive (which is darned infrequent) he takes his one shot. Otherwise, his only double stab opportunity comes if my opponent does something silly. Then its a "gotcha" move. It has yet to generate anything worse than a BH, and that only once. Stab ordinarily generates (if it does anything) a Stun or a KO. Which is what, statistically, it should do. Too powerful? No other skill can stack with Stab. Its not like I can add Mighty Blow and Piling On. Its not the old days when it was a Poisoned Dagger, was as nasty as the Chainsaw (without kickback), and counted as a Secret Weapon. Its just an unmodified armor roll, followed occasionally by an unmodified injury roll.
So why Mighty Blow?
Tenwit suggested a long time ago that the Assassin should ignore Stab if he has a target he can take down without it, using Blocking. That would usually be 2D hits against unskilled players. I find that Stab is not very useful as a single hit, really needs the double chance to have a shot at doing anything, and that USUALLY it is more important to me to push someone than injure them. I'll never waste a Blitz action on the Assassin to make a single Stab. I haven't yet, and don't forsee it happening in the future. I rarely bother to set up 2D hits for the Assassin, so he either Assists or Multi-Stabs.
Guard would make him a better Assist. But then I'd still be relying on him primarily as a stabber. Stab is useless against high-AV. With Guard, I'd basically do as you said: Stab, then stand around to Guard. Guard is nice in that it is a passive skill that influences other players and not himself. So it never becomes an either-or with Stabbing and Blocking. In fact, if there were ever a situation where the Assassin would be advantaged to Block then Guard would be superfluous.
Mighty Blow gives me a way to use the Assassin other than as a stabber, but still primarily as a CAS generator, to take down other targets. Stab becomes an alternative to making 1D (or worse) hits, or an option when faced with a skilled target. But if I can line up help to make it a 2D hit, it is a very serious option to use the Blitz for the Assassin to Block.
As for scoring with him? 21 TDs in the last 7 games. Only 1 has been scored by a MA7 player, and that was a fluke. I would be more likely to build SPP on an Assassin by giving him Pass skill and using him as my primary Thrower (a roll that despite having an AG5 Blitzer and two Runners is still unfilled). |
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NAF # 8106
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 11, 2008 - 12:39 AM
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Joined: Feb 10, 2003
Undisclosed
Posts: 2696
Location: Undisclosed
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Have any of your opponents taken Mighty Blow, Claw and/or Piling On? Any of these are more likely to give Cas than Stab.
Sounds more like "we don't know how to handle it" - not a good arguement for being asked (made?) to change a skill. |
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AK_Dave |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 11, 2008 - 02:34 AM
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Joined: Nov 29, 2005
Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 102
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Status: Offline
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I agree that this is more a case of "we don't know how to handle this" than a combo that is inherently broken. I haven't faced any teams with any of those skills. What I suspect may drive more of the consternation than anything else is the fact that I make it a priority to get in a game a week, half of the league does about half that and the other half only manages to play occasionally. For the last couple of games I've been giving up 300K+ in inducements. The league doesn't set a floor or ceiling to number of games, limiting only playing back-to-back against the same opponent to two games max before playing anyone else. I've played about 2x as much as anybody else, score 3TD/game, and rack up 20SPP/game. On average. I don't it hard to do all of that. Dark Elves work well for me.
I'm happy to bow to peer pressure. Not complaining about it. But I fully expect that Mighty Blow will be much more lethal. Orcs that used to laugh at the Stab won't be laughing much, and the AV7 team coaches will be even more unhappy. |
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NAF # 8106
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Spazzfist |
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Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Dark Elf Assassin - doubles on first
Posted: Nov 11, 2008 - 07:41 AM
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Joined: Aug 16, 2004
Canada
Posts: 3953
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
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Cramy wrote: Wouldn't put Mighty Blow on the Assassin. He should stab most of the time, so Mighty Blow is not the best.
I think what Cramy is pointing out here is that you cannot use Mighty Blow on a Stab action.
Based on your comment about the orcs and AV7 players, I think that is what you are suggesting.... |
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#1 Nurgle coach in Canada (formerly the world!)
#1 Snotling coach in Canada
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Cramy |
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Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Dark Elf Assassin - doubles on first
Posted: Nov 11, 2008 - 10:08 AM
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Joined: Nov 17, 2006
Canada
Posts: 403
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
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Spazzfist wrote: Cramy wrote: Wouldn't put Mighty Blow on the Assassin. He should stab most of the time, so Mighty Blow is not the best.
I think what Cramy is pointing out here is that you cannot use Mighty Blow on a Stab action.
Based on your comment about the orcs and AV7 players, I think that is what you are suggesting....
What I was trying to say includes that Stab / Mighty Blow don't stack. But also that Mighty Blow is way more efficient with Block. To me, Mighty Blow is a skill for the Biltzers and the Witch Elves (Juggernaut is also good on the Witches). The Blitzers have block, and the Witches get block very soon. Assassins have more interesting skills to take than Block (one of the rare cases IMO). I like to leverage the skills and stats that the player starts with. Stab and Shadowing don't combine that well with Block and Mighty Blow. But they do combine well with Side Step, Dodge, Diving Tackle, and to some extent Guard (especially if you also have or plan to have Side Step and Dodge). The Assassin now becomes a defensive nightmare for your opponent. |
_________________
The Ottawa Gatineau Blood Bowl League, fine purveyors of Blood Bowl tournaments since 2007. Home to the Deathbowl, CCKO and Daggerbowl.
Cramy
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AK_Dave |
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Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Dark Elf Assassin - doubles on first
Posted: Nov 11, 2008 - 11:15 AM
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Joined: Nov 29, 2005
Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 102
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Status: Offline
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Spazzfist wrote: Based on your comment about the orcs and AV7 players, I think that is what you are suggesting....
No, sorry, I know Mighty Blow doesn't stack with Stab.
What I'm suggesting is that a Bork or a Welf Lino has a lot more to fear from a guy with Mighty Blow than a guy with Stab, even Multi-Stab. |
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NAF # 8106
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AK_Dave |
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Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Dark Elf Assassin - doubles on first
Posted: Nov 11, 2008 - 11:27 AM
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Joined: Nov 29, 2005
Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 102
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Status: Offline
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Cramy wrote: To me, Mighty Blow is a skill for the Biltzers and the Witch Elves (Juggernaut is also good on the Witches). The Blitzers have block, and the Witches get block very soon.
This is all true. Mighty Blow is better with Block. It would be more efficient to put Mighty Blow on a Blitzer or Witch Elf.
But I've rolled 7 skillups on Blitzers and Witch Elfs to date and none of them were Doubles. I rolled one skillup on an Assassin and got Doubles. So this isn't a question of "which player should get Mighty Blow". Given the choice, I'd take Mighty Blow on a Blitzer and Juggernaut on a Witch Elf. But I'm not given the choice.
Quote: Assassins have more interesting skills to take than Block (one of the rare cases IMO). I like to leverage the skills and stats that the player starts with. Stab and Shadowing don't combine that well with Block and Mighty Blow. But they do combine well with Side Step, Dodge, Diving Tackle, and to some extent Guard (especially if you also have or plan to have Side Step and Dodge).
All of those, except Guard, are normal skills.
I have two rules of thumb as a DE coach:
1. Always take every first stat roll for any character.
1. Do not diss the Doubles. DEs cannot get Strength skills any other way, and lack a Big Guy.
If not Multiple Block, my pick for an Assassin is Guard or Mighty Blow.
My brain tells me the TEAM would benefit more from Guard. My gut tells me the PLAYER would benefit more from Mighty Blow.
My planned course for the Assassin is pretty much as you suggested it above:
Dodge, Side Step, Diving Tackle, Catch, Pass Block (not necessarily in that order).
I've even considered giving him Frenzy. He'd start with Blocking, but could end his Frenzy at any time by switching to Stab. |
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NAF # 8106
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Cramy |
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Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Dark Elf Assassin - doubles on first
Posted: Nov 11, 2008 - 05:37 PM
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Joined: Nov 17, 2006
Canada
Posts: 403
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
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AK_Dave wrote: My brain tells me the TEAM would benefit more from Guard. My gut tells me the PLAYER would benefit more from Mighty Blow.
Yes, that's generally the case. Having lots of Mighty Blow though really helps the team as well, but that's not an option for Elves, as they need doubles for Mighty Blow, hence can't rely on that. |
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The Ottawa Gatineau Blood Bowl League, fine purveyors of Blood Bowl tournaments since 2007. Home to the Deathbowl, CCKO and Daggerbowl.
Cramy
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