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Post subject:
 Posted: Nov 15, 2006 - 05:44 AM
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Da Boss
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I think I would prefer the day one individual tournament deciding teams for the team tournament day two. One of the big draws for me is participating in a team event. Something I don't get to do (properly) here.
Having the top 8 score count for each country would only favor the countries that could bring the most coaches. If you wanted to go that route you could use avg country score. But I would still prefer a true team event even if it was only one day of the tournament.
A large painting comp is something that I really think should be done as well. |
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Old_Man_Monkey |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 15, 2006 - 06:58 AM
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Grotuk wrote: Again, I think it's very important that if you want to have a "real" individual tourney you need to give every participant a chance to qualify for the team event or they will stay at home!
And I think just the opposite is true: a "real" individual tournament should allow for everyone who plays in the team event a chance to qualify for the individual event.... I also believe that the coach you mention who would stay home if they can't be own the team would stay home no matter how the teams were chosen. What you suggest is that a coach will venture out on the hopes of playing into a team and then stay for the individual tournament with an "oh well" kind of attitude.
I believe the event is worth support in its entirety and will trust that many will come to play, observe, and be part of the complete weekend.
There are other issues:
1) a one day "play in" in any game involving dice necessarily means that those who are fortunate on that day will be playing for a team under the above proposal.
2) differing nations have different priorities and the NAF has consistently stayed away from dictating how a country chooses its team. This could change for future WCs but I don't believe we should begin to dictate terms now. Let's have a great WC run the first time, and should it become necessary, we can look to other structures in the future.
Personally, I believe a national team should be made up of those who have been long time supporters and workers for the game WITHIN THEIR COUNTRY and have the interest and desire to go. Yes part of it is fielding players who know the rules and are not beginners but this is not the Olympics.
I also believe that playing in the individual tournament with the chance to be declared the NAF World Champion for four years is a pretty good incentive on its own....
Just my thoughts,
OMM |
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Old_Man_Monkey |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 15, 2006 - 07:01 AM
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juergen wrote: but you have to take care about scheduling. Players from each nations playing against each other shouldn't be possible because they take important points away - but then you can't avoid that completely.
not easy...
sorry.... I meant to include this in the above post:
I agree completely and we will look to construct the scheduling during the individual tournament with this in mind.
OMM |
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Grotuk |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 15, 2006 - 08:54 AM
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OMM...the problem is if the teams are already fixed...somebody who is not on his national team is not going to play Geggster, Lucifer, Sputnik, Longshot, Dock Drak, Tarra, Kerrunch, Farina and some other of the Big European names that will be playing for their national team for sure...and it's going to be really really hard to play against an Aussie (cause i dont hope they can bring more than 8 players) or a north american.
If im not going to face this players...and i win the individual world cup..im gonna feel not completely the world champion. So many people will not attend for that reason (is like the always likely side tournament at the Eurobowl)...much money for a vainilla tourney.
In the other hand...if we do the first day qualifier (where the first 8 with different races qualify) a lot of people will attend and try to do his best for his nation. Maybe on the end...in the team tournament they will not be the usual 8 national players...but unless 4 will be for sure...but we'll get much more people for the individual tournament.
So what you prefer? Thats the real question.
In the other side...if the teams will be fixed...they would be the Eurobowl teams? Or the NAF TOs will choose a captain?
If its going to be "a really special tournament" we need to do it totally different and not just a Eurobowl+NorthAmerica+¿Aussies?+SideTournament.
Just my opinion. |
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Old_Man_Monkey |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 15, 2006 - 09:22 AM
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What you seem to imply, Grotuk, is that only the national team members are the coaches 'worth' playing... which I will have to take exception to on face value.... 
But another point is:
In a tournament beyond a certain size there is no guarantee that you will play these aforemention 'uber' coaches anyway... it is always hit or miss. It may very well be that the third day of the competition will take the best of the team coaches and the best of the individual tournament and combine them in some way to determine an overall champion.
However, let me say from the outset. THIS IS NOT THE MOST IMPORTANT REASON TO ATTEND as far as I'm concerned. With the painting competition, the events being planned around the tournaments, and the overall excitemennt and comradarie, any coach should have a great time and enjoy the celebration of this crazy little game we all like so much...
Just my opinion, too...  |
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Last edited by Old_Man_Monkey on Nov 15, 2006 - 06:06 PM; edited 1 time in total
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Grotuk |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 15, 2006 - 09:40 AM
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Old_Man_Monkey wrote: However, let me say from the outset. THIS IS NOT THE MOST IMPORTANT REASON TO ATTEND as far as I'm concerned. With the painting competition, the events being planned around the tournaments, and the overall excitemennt and comradarie, any coach should have a great time and enjoy the celebration of this crazy little game we all like so much...
Just my opinion, too...
For you, and for me...and for some people yes...but i think that all the comunitty is not filled by dreamers like you and me.
About the coaches worth playing... i mean...that i want the WC become something like the BB GT where you face a lot of casual players that are so-so playing and most dont have the spirit of the comunity (you just need to check the Bugmans...with less than 50-60 coaches...when they are like 200 playing)...i dont want that in the WC.
I wanna be part of the biggest tournament in all the aspects.
Your proposition of make the third day open is someway fault...cause as some one explained earlier...if you are playing swiss style with a bad nation but you are good player...your chances to get many points at the end of the team tournament its higher than for a player that is playing with a top nation. |
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Indigo |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 15, 2006 - 11:05 AM
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Da Warboss
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I think the point that many European coaches may not attend if they are not part of a perceived "team" is important and not to be ignored, irrespective of what we want the tourney to be perceived as.
Granted, playing for a national team is a unique experience, but I'd also argue that it's another experience altogether wishing your team mates on while they are still playing - just being in the room while games are going on is a superb experience, as each point is fought for.
I can also see the argument that we don't want simply a big "Blood Bowl" event (i.e. massive individual event) but also don't think a Eurobowl+others style one is a good solution. I still do think we can combine the two - an individual tournament where the best coaches points are used for team scores. Players ARE playing for their country - they get team shirts for example - whether their points are used or not. They get the experience of seeing just how well their country is doing, then at the end of the day, if luck is with them their points count - if not they have pride to compete for in the individual tournament. To me it seems like the best of both worlds.
Furthermore, it also allows for groups of players to construct their own "side" tournaments - for instance, the ECBBL league here in London could challenge one of the Dutch leagues to see which one of them performs best over the weekend.
Quite how an individual event should be organised still needs agreeing on though - maybe random draws are best so coaches have the chance of playing against truly varied opponents. Maybe seeded is best, but we have the time to discuss it at least. |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 15, 2006 - 11:12 AM
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Da Warboss
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TuernRedvenom wrote:
Smaller nations will always be at the bottom of this ranking, even if they have 8 (or even a few more players). Nations with more players have more chance some of them getting lucky and scoring all wins and are less affected if one player has a bad weekend, which inevitably happens (others will just pick up the slack).
What you possibly could do is take the 8 best coaches per nation after day 1, and keep those coaches as the only ones able to score points for their nation instead of taking the best 8 at the end of the tourney. I think that's a bit fairer.
I disagree - I think coach skill is a MUCH bigger factor. For every England coach that gets super lucky there will probably be at least as many from other countries. For the vast majority of coaches, luck (and therefore points) will be average and decided on skill.
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I think eurobowl shows that competitivity en sportsmanship can go together. I enjoyed every game and everyone was very fair but also very competitive. 
That said, your idea is an option to keep everyone involved and interested, although personally I wouldn't like it (I prefer straight up 8 vs 8 or 6 vs 6).
Eurobowl is a special format that does work and does make it unique. But as a means of attracting MORE than 8 coaches from a given country to fly thousands of miles it doesn't - the event needs to make sure the coach feels like they are contributing as long as possible, then still reward them no matter the outcome. Basically, as I see it, running it Eurobowl style would make for a more accurate test of national skill, but wouldn't necessarily make it a big, fun event that makes a coach truly feel like they are part of BB history. Bear in mind - nothing like this will ever have been done before (even in WFB or 40k I'd argue) so I think the actual outcome of the event is entirely irrelevant compared to the actual hosting and experience of the event itself. This might sound a bit overly sentimental, but if the NAF were to collapse the day after the event and BB be consigned to the history books, at least we as a community can say we managed to get together and do something HUGE. |
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Yavatol |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 15, 2006 - 11:26 AM
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| Considering the heavy NAF involvement in this event and NAF policy to support only open tournaments. I think it is pivotal to come up with a concept that actually enables anybody who wants to invest the time and money to spend three days playing blood bowl in Nottingham to realy participate in the main event. For me this means that if the world bowl would be a team event then anybody should form teams as they see fit (be they nation or league based). Nobody could deny a team entrance. Would the world bowl be similar to the Eurobowl (but with an individual tournament as an add-on) I would not attend, whether I could secure a place on the Dutch squad or not, and I am pretty sure there are many others who would feel same. |
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Dave |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 15, 2006 - 11:47 AM
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da Veiz-Prez
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I think the problem with a first day qualify for a national side and then play in teams day 2/3 is that a country with many players attending (england comes to mind as the tourny is organized there) has a MUCH bigger chance of winning the thing. Assuming that all the players (be it 8 or 30) from each country together perform average (win 1.5 games) the chance that a country with 30 coaches has 8 players that won all their matches is much larger than the same chance for a country with 8 players.
I think the best way to go is to have a 2 day team event, with teams made by the NTO's / in another way to determine the best country. IF (and I think we should) there is an individual tournament next to this it could be over 9 rounds, so the players of the team competition can join in after round 6. This would give the high ranked players of BOTH events the chance to play against eachother and will thus result in a fair (good, rightfull, whatever) winner of the individual event. |
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Dave |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 15, 2006 - 11:49 AM
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da Veiz-Prez
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| Also: As the tournament takes place instead of the Eurobowl: why change a well working format for the team competition?? |
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Grotuk |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 15, 2006 - 12:08 PM
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| My proposal is to reset the points of the qualifies for team comp...unless we can find a solution that makes point equally valuable for a team with 8 players to another with 50. |
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Dave |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 15, 2006 - 12:13 PM
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da Veiz-Prez
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I assumed that would be happening, I was just stating my worries.
What I'll really, really miss is the team spirit that makes eurobowl so different from other tournaments. The shirts, songs etc etc |
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Old_Man_Monkey |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 15, 2006 - 01:27 PM
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I would think you could re-tabulate each team member's result using the formula being used in the individual tournament: win-loss-draw-TD's for and against, CAS for and against... if it is true that the national team members are among a country's best players, the ones with the most wins from that group should have competitive scores that could then be put into the mix of scores for the individual tournament on the 3rd day.
It's just as random a draw, given the numbers of coachs, and would still allow for three games on the final day, which I believe might be as close as we could statistically get over three days to having the best scores going into each round.... |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 15, 2006 - 01:35 PM
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| Non-national teams might be a way to go. For example (and not saying we should let it in), but the NBA team could face the RCN team, and it would allow people that are unlikely to get on their national team to be part of the team mentality, and have a shot at winning the team WC. |
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