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Sputnik |
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Post subject:
 Posted: May 05, 2006 - 07:06 AM
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Joined: Feb 11, 2003
Posts: 512
Status: Offline
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To add to the above comments, the tournament organisator may use whatever point system he thinks suits him best. There is no NAF-ruling or whatsoever. As a result, most tournament rules slightly differ from each other.
Same is true for the format. For example, it appears that in North American tournaments, a system including overtime is applied frequently, thus a draw is a rare event. In most European tourneys however, no overtime will be played except for a final (if there is a true final at all).
Further, extra points and tiebreakers can broadly vary, and indeed slightly favor some races. You might want to do a search for tie breaker discussions on this board in this connection, where total TDs as compared to net TDs was discussed, for example. While this was about tiebreakers, it is true for bonus points as well.
If you play for fun and you want to socialize  , you might basically want to play your favorite team since you have most fun with it (hopefully). If you are more into maximizing your winning chances, you might want to carefully check the rules whether they put some preferences on certain aspects, such as bonus points for 2+/3+ TDs etc.
Sputnik |
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MightyQ |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 05, 2006 - 08:23 AM
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Joined: Jul 16, 2004
Posts: 40
Status: Offline
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CyberHare wrote: May I ask if those are BB tournaments or other events such as Hero Clics or a CCG? I only ask because there in might lie the difference.
Yes mainly Heroclix tournaments and because of my posts I am learning the differences...
CyberHare wrote: Bang on the money there Xtreme. And I put my money where my mouth is to back that up. 3 years in a row driving 16 hours to Gencon as the odd man out. A trip to England to help referee & several other events as TO or help in some other manner. The social aspect of the BB tournament scene is the backbone of the tournament scene.
I want to have fun, I like socializing with other Blood Bowlers, I chat with them from all over the world from the online leagues I am and have been in, it would be nice someday to place faces with names...
And because it's also kind of a social event, that also effects the game greatly and kind of slows the game down... People want to have fun, people want to see how other friends are doing while they are playing thier own game but it's also hard trying not to be a scrouge and say to your opponent, can you stop fooling around so we can our finish without leaving a bitter taste in his mouth... |
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Clan_Skaven |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 05, 2006 - 10:22 AM
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Joined: Aug 19, 2003
Niagara Falls ON, Canada
Posts: 2604
Location: Niagara Falls ON, Canada
Status: Offline
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As for tie breakers I did have an idea. I have seen tournies where the tie breaker heavily favours high scoring teams such as Wood Elf, Pro Elf, Skaven, & I have others that favour the bashy teams such as Chaos, Orc, Dwarves.
Now how bout a tie breaker system that still uses TD's & Cas but benifits both High scoring & High Cas. causing teams equally? I think this can be done like this.
Ok in tournies in the past I have seen tie breakers that go (1) most td's scored (2) most cas scored.... well in that example the Wood Elf type teams will usually dominate the Dwarf type teams in a tie breaker & if the reverse was done where Cas was the 1st tie breaker the Dwarf type teams would usually dominate the tie breaker.
So this is my idea .... have this order for tie breakers (1) whatever is your highest total TD's for or Cas for (2) Whatever is your lower score TD's for Cas for.
So for example you have Wood Elf team & a Dwarf team tied in the standings after the final round with 210 points. The Wood Elf team has lets say 15 TD's for & 6 cas caused, the Dwarves have 15 cas caused & 7 TD's scored. The Dwarves would win the tie breaker.... Thier higher number (cas for 15) ties the Woody's higher number (TD's for 15), but the Dwaves lower number of 7 TD's is higher than the Wood Elves lower number of 6 Cas scored.
I think this system would elinminate the trend that just b4 a tourney you have a bunch of coaches changing to high scoring or bashy races to suit the scoring system. With my idea you can play the bashy game with pretty much equal success as the high scoring game, & I'd think both types would benifit equally from the tie breaker rules.
Anyone think this is a good idea?
Rod. |
_________________
"2006 SPIKE Champion!"
"Death-Bowl IV & V, Most Casualties!, Death-Bowl VI Best Team!"
"2008 Dagger Bowl Champion"
Host of the Warpstone Cup, Q'ermitt Bowl & the Hope Bowl
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Paul |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 05, 2006 - 10:29 AM
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Joined: Feb 18, 2005
Canada
Posts: 422
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
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MightyQ wrote:
I feel bonuses like 2+ touchdowns, + in casualties can be a bit racist... Khemri and Dwarfs would rarely get the 2+ touchdowns and most teams playing against AV9 teams wont get many casualties...
The bonuses in the games are actually pretty fair and balanced I find. Strong, slow teams (Dwarfs, Khemri, Orcs etc) don't expect to win by 2+ TDs, but they can expect to score more Cas then their opponent. A fast team like Skaven or Wood Elfs shouldn't expect to score more Cas than your opponents, but they can resonabbly expect to score 2+ TDs and get the bonus points there. So, each race has a shot at scoring one set of bonus points for a win. In rare cases, you can score both.
I've gotten both sets of bonus points playing with Skaven before. I outcasualtied a Chaos Dwarf Team and beat them 2-0. Thats a full 70 points for me in a game where I played very well (and got lucky). My Dwarf team has done the same thing many times. I've won games 2-0 and outcasualtied my opponents. So, it is possible for all races to get these points. Its rare, but when you play well in the game and it happens, you should be rewarded.
The Keeping it close bonus is a good one too. It means that one loss does not eliminate you from having a shot at the championship. Everyone can manage to pull this off if they play well in the game.
I'm like everyone else, I play for fun and to meet new people. If I didn't I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have come back Sunday at the North American Cup, but hey, I came back, and had some more fun. I like to win too, and I like to consider myself a fairly competitive player, so its nice to go to a tournament where you know that 1 loss doesn't compleatly kill your chances. |
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Clan_Skaven |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 05, 2006 - 10:34 AM
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Joined: Aug 19, 2003
Niagara Falls ON, Canada
Posts: 2604
Location: Niagara Falls ON, Canada
Status: Offline
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Well Paul you have been at both sides of the extreme, 1st two NAF tournies 2nd place!
The the NA Cup 2nd last.
A humbling expeariance I'd imagion!
Rod |
_________________
"2006 SPIKE Champion!"
"Death-Bowl IV & V, Most Casualties!, Death-Bowl VI Best Team!"
"2008 Dagger Bowl Champion"
Host of the Warpstone Cup, Q'ermitt Bowl & the Hope Bowl
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Paul |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 05, 2006 - 10:38 AM
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Joined: Feb 18, 2005
Canada
Posts: 422
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
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Clan-Skaven wrote:
(snip)
Anyone think this is a good idea?
Rod.
Its interesting Rod, and I'd like to hear what other people have to say about it, but for me, TDs are the most important factor in breaking a tie, even if it does favour a team like Wood Elfs or Skaven over Dwarfs.
Basiclaly, if me and you play to a 0-0 tie, but I get 4 casualties and you get 3, I still don't win the game, its a tie. Same is true if you beat me 2-1 but I out cas you 2-1, we don't tie (which is what would happen in your situation)
I'd like to see something like TD Differential as the first tie breaker. This way, slow teams that focus more on defense get a fair shot at a tie breaker. If my dwarfs win every game 2-0 in a 5 game tournament, I would be a +10. If your Wood Elfs win ever game 4-3, you'd be +5. if we were tied, I'd win the tie breaker because I clearly played better defense throughout the tournament, even though you scored 2x the number of TDs that I did. |
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Paul |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 05, 2006 - 10:39 AM
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Joined: Feb 18, 2005
Canada
Posts: 422
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
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Clan-Skaven wrote: Well Paul you have been at both sides of the extreme, 1st two NAF tournies 2nd place!
The the NA Cup 2nd last.
A humbling expeariance I'd imagion!
Rod
Heh, I'm not humble. I'll still kick your *censored* next time we play  |
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Clan_Skaven |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 05, 2006 - 10:43 AM
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Joined: Aug 19, 2003
Niagara Falls ON, Canada
Posts: 2604
Location: Niagara Falls ON, Canada
Status: Offline
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Paul wrote: Clan-Skaven wrote:
(snip)
Anyone think this is a good idea?
Rod.
Its interesting Rod, and I'd like to hear what other people have to say about it, but for me, TDs are the most important factor in breaking a tie, even if it does favour a team like Wood Elfs or Skaven over Dwarfs.
Basiclaly, if me and you play to a 0-0 tie, but I get 4 casualties and you get 3, I still don't win the game, its a tie. Same is true if you beat me 2-1 but I out cas you 2-1, we don't tie (which is what would happen in your situation)
I'd like to see something like TD Differential as the first tie breaker. This way, slow teams that focus more on defense get a fair shot at a tie breaker. If my dwarfs win every game 2-0 in a 5 game tournament, I would be a +10. If your Wood Elfs win ever game 4-3, you'd be +5. if we were tied, I'd win the tie breaker because I clearly played better defense throughout the tournament, even though you scored 2x the number of TDs that I did.
I don't mean as a tie breaker in a single game, a tie in a game is a tie! I'm talking for standings (inbetween rounds or final standings)
Rod. |
_________________
"2006 SPIKE Champion!"
"Death-Bowl IV & V, Most Casualties!, Death-Bowl VI Best Team!"
"2008 Dagger Bowl Champion"
Host of the Warpstone Cup, Q'ermitt Bowl & the Hope Bowl
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Paul |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 05, 2006 - 10:45 AM
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Joined: Feb 18, 2005
Canada
Posts: 422
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
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yea I got that Rod, but the point of the game (well, the sport of blood bowl say, ie, if it were in real life) is to score more TDs than your opponent. Casualties are just a by product.
consider the NHL, would it make sense if 2 teams were tied at the end of teh regular season in the standings for the last play-off spot, and they let the team in that had the most penalty minutes? No, they use goal differential becaue the point of a hockey game is to score more goals than your opponent in the games. |
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KarlLagerbottom |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 05, 2006 - 11:14 AM
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Joined: May 25, 2004
Undisclosed
Posts: 1148
Location: Undisclosed
Status: Offline
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Sorry...I can't go along with this...CAS are a bigger part of Blood Bowl than PIMs are to hockey.
The fluff behing Blood Bowl, as I take it, is that there is football-type sport used as a reason to pound upon one another. It is the proxy for war...the TDs are just a product of the game that some races feel is inconsequential.
Now, as a game mechanic winners and losers are determined by TDs, but beating down your opponent can lead to a win as much as a pass or a catch...and as such CAS should be NEARLY equally considered.
EDIT: Total TD's is beat as the 1st tiebraker...how about if a dwarf coack wins all of hi/her games 2-1/1-0...are they really a worse coach than the elf team that wins 4-3/3-2? I don't think so...differential can even be misleading because elf teams can score 2 tds by mistake...if they win 4-2 they should not beat-out the 1-0 Dwarf win.
Of the 2 I like differential, but including CAS helps to set these things apart...more reflective of the coaches overall ability.
Sure its a dice game and luck is a factor in ALL results, but coaching creates opportunities for the rolls. |
_________________
Karl Lagerbottom - Dwarf Blocker of Renown
NAF Member #5236
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Clan_Skaven |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 05, 2006 - 12:10 PM
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Joined: Aug 19, 2003
Niagara Falls ON, Canada
Posts: 2604
Location: Niagara Falls ON, Canada
Status: Offline
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Paul wrote: yea I got that Rod, but the point of the game (well, the sport of blood bowl say, ie, if it were in real life) is to score more TDs than your opponent. Casualties are just a by product.
consider the NHL, would it make sense if 2 teams were tied at the end of teh regular season in the standings for the last play-off spot, and they let the team in that had the most penalty minutes? No, they use goal differential becaue the point of a hockey game is to score more goals than your opponent in the games.
I agree, but this I think would stop certain tournies from being heavily populated one way or the other (& as I stated before a tournies with varied scoring systems/rules/themes is what makes them , to me anyway more appealing.
Answer me this would my idea at least even the population of races represented at the tourney between bashy & non bashy races?
Rod |
_________________
"2006 SPIKE Champion!"
"Death-Bowl IV & V, Most Casualties!, Death-Bowl VI Best Team!"
"2008 Dagger Bowl Champion"
Host of the Warpstone Cup, Q'ermitt Bowl & the Hope Bowl
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Paul |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 05, 2006 - 12:13 PM
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Joined: Feb 18, 2005
Canada
Posts: 422
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
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@Karl
you're right, CAS in Blood Bowl is more important than PIMs in hockey. It was just an analogy that I tried to draw up but you do raise some valid points regarding the fluff where the strong teams just use it as an excuse for war/to kill people etc.
@Rod
yea, I will say that your format will encourage more people to play whatever race they want to play, I'll give you that. But, its been my finding that what races other people bring all depends on what I bring. If I bring a strong stompy team, I find myself playing lots of finesse teams that run around and generally dodge away and piss me off. If I bring a fast, agile team, everyone else brings in strong stompy teams that decimate my players. So, your format has absoultly no bearing on what other people bring, but rather, its what I bring to play that determines what others play. (btw, I'll be playing flings at the next tournamnet, so get your bashy teams ready for them) |
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Uthrac |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 05, 2006 - 01:34 PM
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Joined: Jan 09, 2006
Posts: 16
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At last weekend's tournament, the last place finisher (1-1-3) finished below teams with no wins (0-5-0, 0-3-2, etc.) This scoring system, as previously pointed out, seems "broken" when ties count as much (or more) than wins.
Certainly a team with a win and a tie should finish ahead of a team with 5 losses, but that wasn't the case.
I always look at the game designer's ideas (they get paid to work on these things), and was wondering if anyone had thoughts on an "out-of-the-book" scoring system . . . based on win/loss/point differential. They key added in the rulebook is the "post best 3 results" line . . . meaning that an "early loss" doesn't automatically keep someone out of the championship. [Of course, in this format, there are semi-finals and finals.]
Perhaps Total Casualties+TDs could then be used as a tiebreaker . . . since the secondary tiebreak is team rating which, winnings considered equal, is the most drastic differential in TR.
IMHO, a win should always count more than a tie should always count more than a loss, all things considered.
And yes, it's important to have fun, but if that's really the goal, then why keep score at all? For some people, the competition is the fun part of the game. The key to keeping Bloodbowl an ongoing success is to continue to offer tournaments (and scoring) which appeal to the broad range of players who enjoy the game.
I, for one, will not be playing in tournaments where a lost match can score more points than a tie. It just doesn't work for me.
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Uthrac |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 05, 2006 - 01:51 PM
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Joined: Jan 09, 2006
Posts: 16
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Another thought occurs to me . . . casualties are a "means to an end" for bashy teams . . . prevent your opponent's ability to run their offense/defense by removing players. Why is this in the scoring system at all?
Casualties are generally a function of which teams you happen to play . . . AV 7 teams give up casualties, AV 9 generally do not. Unlike TDs, coaches have very little control over the number of CAS they cause in the game.
My proposal for tiebreaks? Good old Strength-of Schedule followed by Strength of Victory. Win=3 points, Tie=1 point. Add up points of all opponents to tiebreak, followed by points of just victories. The "champion," in the case of a tie, defeated the "tougher" coaches.
My 2 cents. |
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skummy |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 05, 2006 - 02:28 PM
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Joined: Feb 11, 2003
Posts: 506
Status: Offline
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Uthrac wrote: Another thought occurs to me . . . casualties are a "means to an end" for bashy teams . . . prevent your opponent's ability to run their offense/defense by removing players. Why is this in the scoring system at all?
Exactly my problem with it. Casualties are their own reward, and make the game easier for your team when you get them. Taking casualties out of the tiebreaker eliminates players going nuts for cas on the last couple of meaningless game turns.
Metagame-wise, I know that a bashy team can lose or tie and still be in the final game in many tournaments, but an agility team has no such chance. |
_________________
The only thing to do with good advice is pass it on. It is never any use to oneself.
-Oscar Wilde
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